posted
I like what Beverly had to say about this. That's about where my line is too...you can be friends with the opposite sex (not your spouse), but not *close* friends. Aside from what it looks like on the outside, the potential temptations it might eventually cause are not worth flirting with.
I think it really is a balance. I made myself nuts over this issue at one point, to the point I needed a counsellor to get myself untwisted. I was so full of the "avoiding the appearance of evil" idea that I started obsessing about Halloween. Should we get dressed up, carve a pumpkin, get candy, etc. or would it make us look too worldly? I hated to deprive myself or my kids of the fun of Halloween. Living in a brand new neighborhood where most of our neighbors are not Christians, this started to take on epic proportions. I found myself examining *everything*. It got just a bit neurotic. The counselor helped me see that I needed to chill out. He helped me see that one of the things I *love* about Christ is his sense of freedom and choice. He didn't *force* anyone to follow him. The counselor then wryly told me that he had never, in all his years, heard of anyone being put off Christianity because some Christians went trick or treating. It only took a couple of good talks before I got unwound.
So yeah, this is one that is so bad if you take it to extremes.... but is equally bad if you don't do it at all.
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posted
Oh, as a side note, perhaps developing feeling for the girl you carpool with does mean something is wrong with your marriage. We have had things wrong with our marriage before, all the better reason not to endanger it by encouraging temptation. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: The counselor helped me see that I needed to chill out. He helped me see that one of the things I *love* about Christ is his sense of freedom and choice. He didn't *force* anyone to follow him.
Of course, the ones who didn't burned in hell, but...
posted
zgator -- I'll tell you what happened to me. I had a female friend before I ever started dating my wife. We were pretty close. After I got married, I hoped that the two of them would become friends. It didn't happen. As a result, I let my friendship with that girl fade. We still keep in touch, but we have never been close since.
It saddens me that I lost that friendship. But my marriage is much more important than any other friendship.
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posted
I'm also the sort of person though (and I demand in a relationship that someone loves me for the person that I am without major changes of personality) that will make comments about cute guys that are walking by. Steve will do the same about cute girls. We both know when it comes down to it that the other person is coming home to us at the end of the day, not running off and having a torrid affair. I think the openness is actually what strengthens our relationship, and why it has lasted for nearly five years.
To use an actual hatrack example, I came down with a crush on Happy Camper, while going to an OSC signing without Steve. I told Steve about it and he was vastly amused. Especially when you start comparing vocations and personality traits between Happy Camper and Steve, and realize how dang similar they are. In fact I think Steve, would be amused to meet HC because they have so much in common IRL that they would probably get along quite well.
Did Steve get mad at me for said crush, or consider me unfaitful? No. Because I wasn't. It didn't even cross his mind that I would have been unfaithful, regardless of temptation. He wouldn't mind if I even saw Happy Camper again in a Hatrack context. Why? Because he trusts me.
I suspect some people would consider me unfaithful for coming down with the crush in the first place though. I guess that is where the line is in different places.
posted
I don't think a crush is unfaithful, only allowing it to take root in your mind to the point you have fantasies about it.
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posted
Well, zgator, I did. I was still very close with my ex-boyfriend when I got married; we hung out a lot and were good friends. Once I was married, he kept calling and wanting to hang out alone with me. Which I found irritating for several reasons; I was a newlywed, I wanted to spend a lot of time alone with DangerDad doing things we hadn't done before and generally get used to married life, and he was not acknowledging that my life had changed at all. I thought it was kind of rude of him to so explicitly not want DDad around. And, to be honest, he was kind of an obnoxious guy and I was getting tired of being so close with him. And also, I was sensitive to DDad's belief that married people should not spend lots of time alone with opposite-sex people (something he was extremely sensitive to after his mission). He wasn't hanging out alone with his girl physics buddy, but making sure to hang out with her in groups. I could do the same.
Over time, ex-boyfriend and I spent less time together, though we occasionally met for lunch, etc. Now we live far apart and sporadically email each other about our kids.
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quote:Kama -- you are putting words in my mouth. I never said that it would be an automatic temptation. But it *would* be a possibility.
Okay, slight misunderstanding. Sorry.
Nonetheless, for me, even the possibility would be a signal that there is something to take care of in my relationship.
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posted
zgator, emphatically no. I have close friendships with several guys now, that I have known for over a decade. I have no intention of ending them Steve or no Steve.
I actually need to get AJ's hall of guy friends, posted on our internet site sometime. I was laughing to myself as I looked through some photo albums the other day. Almost every attractive guy in those photos is still my friend and also happily married, and I was invited to the wedding.
The hard part is finding a guy who trusts you enough that he isn't threatened by your relationships with other guys. But it is a neccesity for any relationship which I would ever be in. I guess in a very real way it is an "Are You Strong Enough to be My Man" litmus test for me. If a guy can't handle my relationships with other guys without getting jealous than he isn't strong enough to be my man.
Of course fair is fair, and therefore you would never hear a peep from me about any female friends he might have either.
posted
Kama, I don't think any relationship is so perfect that there aren't things that need to be taken care of or improved upon. I think the people who avoid situations with people of the opposite sex are making sure those "things that need to be taken care of" don't get exploited.
added: Sorry, Porteiro, I'll let you defend yourself now.
I really almost typed out Pot-Head. Glad I didn't.
posted
mph, I'm happy that my wife likes both my friends.
My wife still has lunch with an ex-boyfriend occasionally. She broke up with him because she didn't have romantic feelings for him, more like brother/sister feelings. We are both good friends with he and his wife. I go to Islands of Adventure with his wife once in a while because neither of our spouses can stand to ride roller coasters.
AJ, you know you have a crush on HC because he's a geotechnical engineer. Women can't help but feel that way about us.
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posted
Zgator, I am trying to think of close friendships we had with the opposite sex before we got married so I can answer your question. Someday I will tell the tale of our courtship, for it is an interesting tale. I'm not sure either of us were bosom buddies with a member of the opposite sex when we started dating.
But I think that if we had been, the nature of those friendships probably would have changed while we were dating. We probably would be spending most of our spare time with each other and one on one time with a friend of the opposite sex would be cut down on. Why do friends spend one on one time with each other? Emotional intimacy. Our desire for emotional intimacy was being filled already. Most (not all) of our time with friends would be in social groups or one on one with friends of our own sex (because that need is not met in our relationship alone).
Both of us feel that our marriage relationship is our deepest friendship, and we both are somewhat introverted. Our need for other intimate frienships with the opposite sex are satisfied in each other. Porter doesn't feel much need for outside social interaction, but I know that when he gets it he is much happier. He has guy friends. I am also often go for long periods of time unaware of my social needs, but am happier having those needs fulfilled in girlfriends. We both have couple friends. We have no problem being friends and friendly with people in general no matter what sex they are. But because of our feelings on the issue, we don't develop close friendships with the opposite sex and don't feel the lack.
Edit: Oops, Porter, I forgot about her. Long story.
posted
Funny, I just saw a new patient today. Her husband will only allow her to see female doctors. Furthermore, she is not allowed to take birth control to help with some female problems she is having because he thinks that taking birth control would mean she would feel free to engage in extramarital affairs. He has had a vasectomy.
It sounds like he thinks he is removing temptation with these rules...But what happens to trust?
Posts: 1990 | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote: I'm still new at sharing things that matter over a forum.
Pay no attention to the join date. I'm new at this as well. I'm starting from your viewpoint to illustrate the differences between them. Not to try to convert your way of thinking, but to give you a reference to see mine from.
beverly, we're just going to keep saying the same things at each other, aren't we?
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posted
PSI I think there is a difference between fantasy and action.
Jesus said that anyone who lusts in his heart has commited adultery. Clearly this is an impossible standard. There are shades of grey as far as obbessive fantasies go if they hinder your real life, but actions are where the judgment calls in the human realm are made.
posted
I had about a dozen very close male friends before I met my husband. Every one of those relationships dissolved when I got serious with Jes. I'm not sure if it's because they couldn't compare to him, or if it's because I wasn't interesting anymore since I was taken. I don't think they were after me, but I could be wrong.
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posted
I was talking with two friends of mine recently about having guy friends. They both said that they wouldn't be close friends with someone of the opposite sex because they have boyfriends. But that doesn't make sense to me, and I told them that. And then they just say that because I don't have a boyfriend, I don't understand.
I'm glad there are people here who agree with me. I was beginning to think I was crazy.
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posted
Of course. But some things are more serious than other.
Not wanting to get in a car with a person of opposite sex would constitute a very serious problem to me, because it would be a sign that something is wrong.
(I posted the reply before I read the remaining part of the thread, so I'm repeating things celia already said).
It's just different points of view on the matter.
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quote: PSI I think there is a difference between fantasy and action.
But what if you're fantasizing about sex with that person while having sex with your husband (SO)? Do you think he'd be happy to hear that your fantasy of this other guy is more interesting to you than HE is? Would you be willing to TELL him about the fantasies you're having? (Not that you are.)
I DON'T think there's much of a difference.
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posted
dangermom, I can see where your case would have been a problem. Being friends with someone who is married or involved includes being aware of that relationship and realizing that it will come first. It sounds like your ex didn't feel that way.
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posted
zgator You know my bf IS a geotech right? It was eerily scary in a way. I suspect it is deeply freudian on my part, since my father was a Civil/environmental...
Though while his screen name escapes me there was a regular that is an EE that was posting last night in some thread that I would have married at the drop of a hat.
posted
I just want to say that flirting with me, kissing me, and even professing your undying love for me is not evil, regardless of your relationship status. Please, continue to indulge.
Edited to add: Celia, remember that letter I sent to you and Bill?
quote: I just want to say that flirting with me, kissing me, and even professing your undying love for me is not evil, regardless of your relationship status.
That's not what you told ME! Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote: Jesus said that anyone who lusts in his heart has commited adultery. Clearly this is an impossible standard.
Just because it is impossible to be perfect in this regard, that's no reason to accept defeat, or to justify acceptable levels of lust.
edit: I realize that this sounds offensive. Sorry. Let me say that what I think Jesus was saying was that it *does* matter what we think, and should stop just trying to stop our evil actions, but our evil thoughts too.
posted
Wow! Fast moving thread. Sorry, Celia, I didn't realize we were getting into that pattern. I am not trying to convert either. I am happy to agree to disagree.
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quote: Why do friends spend one on one time with each other? Emotional intimacy.
Or because it's convenient to carpool? Or because nobody else they know was interested in seeing that movie? Or lunch was easier to coordinate with 2 people than 6...it just isn't that cut and dry.
posted
Celia -- I think beverly was talking about why friends choose to do so when they are just enjoying theirselves.
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posted
Oh, another thought on this "married people having close friends of the opposite sex". Maybe Porter and I are in the minority, but we both have noticed in our lives before we got married that when we got close to someone of the opposite sex, we usually developed feeling for them. Extrapolate that to our lives now, and that is not something we want to encourage. That might effect why we feel as we do.
I understand that many people are OK with being in a relationship and having crushes on someone else. While we understand that this happens, we don't think it should be encouraged. I don't think either of us believes it is good to fantasize about being with someone else either. We haven't talked about it much, but I think we both believe in fidelity of thought as well as action. Certainly infidelity of thought is a much more minor offense, but still not good. Are we unusual this way?
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:If you had close friends of the opposite sex before you got married, would you end the friendship? I can understand not actively seeking new friendships like this, but I'm curious how you feel about pre-existing friendships.
From the perspective of an existing female friend to a man who got married: If it's a VERY close friendship and it can't be chilled, then yeah, it may make more sense to end that friendship.
I had a really close male friend for years. We met when I was married to my first husband, and there were sparks. Our friendship became deep, but we never acted on the sparks. A year or so before my divorce, he married. We kept the friendship going; it had not been a factor in my divorce. His wife and I got along fine, though in retrospect, I think she made the effort to like me more because she knew I wasn't going away than because she actually did like me. His marriage started having problems, and he would call me two and three times a week about it.
It became very clear to me that being any part of their relationship was a huge mistake. I ended the friendship with great difficulty, and have not spoken with him since. I still miss him sometimes, but am grateful for the way things turned out. I think maybe the friendship was too deep to share with a marriage. I don't know if they reconciled. I hope so.
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posted
Um, before this carpool thing gets out of hand, the problem is not being in a car alone on occasion with someone, the problem is with arranging to be in the car with them 5 days a week, twice a day. Just wanted to specify. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Also to clarify that specific carpool situation, that woman and I would have been spending 10 hours a week together alone.
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