posted
I admit, I ampretty sleep deprived right now and need time to read all these links.
I will be interested in your statistics- do they just list outbreaks in numbers, or do they also list outcomes?
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posted
Ooops. Um, if it helps, I blithely skipped past 7000 (and now 8000) with nothing more than a nod. I plan to do the same with 9000, unless something else comes up before then. (I figure, I did 1000, 3000, and 6000. The next in that sequence would be 10,000.)
Anyway, I really was NOT implying that you should feel obliged to do anything other than wave cheerfully as 6000 slipped past.
From what I've read of Scott Base, I don't think there's much indoors that is warm enough for flip-flops either. Lots warmer than outdoors, though. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Of course you did it on purpose! As I tell my students when they catch me making a mistake. "Thank you for pointing that out. I'm so glad to see you're paying attention!" Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
CT, thanks for all the info. We did the move this weekend, so I was Internet-less for the last 48 hours. Not to mention every muscle in my body feels sprung.
But I've been popping over to quackwatch since you posted it - good stuff, some of it quite amusing, some of it pretty scary.
I'll be going through the new links during breaks this week.
(And more info on both CT and Rivka is always a good thing!)
I have tried TWICE to post a list of vaccine ingredients, and got the message that parentheses in HTML tag is not allowed. I may have to block out some time to type it all in. I do have questions though. Are all these additives really neccesary? And why the use of human dipoid cells from aborted embryos? I know many parents who abstain from those vaccines, who would get them if they did not use the human cells. Also, some vegans who would vaccinate if not for the animal tissue. If the medical community wants full compliance in vaccination, would they not be wise to *suggest* the drug companies replace ingredients parents will have moral objections to?
posted
And rivka, forgive me for not posting sooner that you and your son are in my prayers. I hope you get some answers.
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Hey, CT, have there been any studies done on the possibility of a causal relationship between sonograms and autism? I haven't heard of any, but I was talking with my mother the other day and she mentioned that it was something she had suspicions about, although she had no proof--just a hunch.
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posted
My mom used to say my brother had Aspergers, but a couple of weeks ago he told me it was high functioning autism and while the psycholologically significant points are similar, they are different. So I guess I no longer know what is up with that.
But we know autism has been around longer than ultrasounds. I'm sure ultrasounds could fall into the category of stressors that can increase the risk in a vulnerable person. But I still get ultrasounds because of the history of fatal heart defects in our family.
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quote: By the way, I look forward to addressing the ethics of public health concerns in a separate thread. Of course, you should feel free to explore it as thoroughly as you chose here, but I think a good case for vaccinations can be made on the grounds of individual benefit as well. I think the public health concern adds additional impetus, but it does not tell the full story.
Given that Dag is interested in the link (or lack thereof) between autism and vaccinations, I'd prefer to focus my time on that question. The public health issue seems a bit of a red herring to the discussion at hand (that is, my discussion with Dagonee, although you -- of course -- might wish to have other discussions with other people in this thread).
I'll flag the public health thread for you, too, just in case you're interested.
I totally missed that post, and have been plodding along with side issues. Sorry all!
As to the autism issue, I feel undecided. I don't think there is enough evidence that it does cause it. I do think in a susceptible child it is a possible trigger. Of course we usually have no way of knowing who those children are. I do have some friends whose child is high functioning autistic. They took extensive vidoetapes of him all his life and feel that they show a direct correlation between his MMR vaccines and the onset of his autism. However he has extensive allergies too. The list of his allergies is two pages long. His sister is not autistic but was diagnosed with diabetes at age 1, and also has food allergies. So perhaps he would have had autism no matter what. Sow hile there seems to be no direct evidence that MMR causes autism, I think it would be a wise precaution to screen children for autism spectrum disorders and withhold that vaccine from them. I think research into the additives and fillers in MMR, and their possible impact on autism, should be researched also.
Again, sorry for getting so off track.
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romanylass, I was looking forward to the ingredients post - is it a link somewhere? That sounded interesting and definitely something I'd like to know.
Dag, here is a link. Please note that this is from 1997 and that thimersol has been removed from some (but not all) vaccines at this time.
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quote: Statistically significant associations were found between cumulative exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines at two months of age and unspecified developmental delay; three months of age and tics; six months of age and attention deficit disorder; one, three, and six months of age and speech and language delay and neurodevelopmental delays in general. According to a report in the Weekly Epidemiology Record that reviewed the use of thimerosal as a vaccine preservative, "This safety assessment cannot currently exclude the possibility of subtle neurodevelopmental abnormalities in infants from a cumulative exposure to thimerosal in vaccines."7
posted
Thanks for the link. I read the letters at the end, and I was struck by the fact that not even pediatricians can agree about the safety of thimerosol.
CT, what do you think about the "toxic load" thoery in connection to the development of developmental disorders?
Is it relevant to the OT to ask, "Ok, if vaccines are not contributing to the rise in autism, why is it increasing so greatly?"
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What I took formt he exceprt is that, while that survey does not PROVE that thimerosol exposure causes developmental delays, it certainly raises enough questions to call for further study, if possible, by a neutral party.
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quote: The CDC maintains that ethyl mercury does not accumulate in the body and is less toxic than methyl mercury. And they cite a recent Institute of Medicine report which evaluated five large epidemiological studies and concluded that vaccines do not cause autism.
Skeptics argue that the large-scale studies could not have spotted a subset of children genetically vulnerable to the effects of vaccines.
"I don't know if anyone has addressed the right questions or even formulated the right questions," said Pessah, the MIND Institute toxicologist and director of the UC Davis Center for Children's Environmental Health and Disease Prevention.
posted
I don't trust the CDC as a neutral party, by the way. Just so you know. A coupld of things from out of there have been highly political. Now maybe I'm mistaking the amount of autonomy members of the CDC have to spew nonsense on their own. But, for instance, the theory that pro-life racketeering was responsible for the lower rate of abortions, when it turned out that more abstinence was a likelier cause.
Again, I believe that autism has been found in non vaccinated populations. I'm frustrated, however, that so much is put into dodging the blame rather than finding the cause.
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posted
I was pregnant with Rusty, so this would have been the Clinton administration. A finding was reported that the abortion rate was down, and an initial hypothesis was that intimidation by pro-life demonstrators was keeping patients away. You may recall that Janet Reno instituted the use of the Hayes Act to charge pro-life demonstrators with racketeering.
A study of the data, however, later showed that there was not evidence for that hypothesis. Abstinence was reported as a possibility, along with birth control/AIDS awareness. (This was still during the Clinton administration, IIRC). Still, we never know for sure- epidemiology is an inexact science. At least where it comes to pinpointing the social reasons that the rate of a condition may be changing.
Link It doesn't get into the causal stuff. There was something promising further down the search results (cdc.gov, search "abortion") but I was too tired to read it. Missed the higher maternal death rate. Did they really call it "maternal" death? Odd.
posted
Wow! Good stuff, of which I can't get through half today. But I will read it all - this topic interests me greatly, for a variety of reasons. Thanks for the research.
Is that part about human diploid cells for real? I've never heard of that before.
posted
When Eve needed rabies shots, I had to calm myself down after reading the possible effects. I focused on the numbers. I didn't know which vaccine she was using, and the Internet is a scary place for medical information. I just kept saying, "It's a tiny percent, it's a tiny percent." Of course, it turned out she took the vaccine that had to be recalled. I'm pretty sure she doesn't know how scared I was.
Of course, in that case, it was clear dangers of not taking the vaccine far, far, far outweighed any possible side effects. Stupid raccoon.
posted
Do you think the fact that the traditional childhood illnesses are a generation behind us makes parents less consciously fearful of them, which makes them more willing to forego the vaccinations?
posted
Dagonee, I don't know about CT's thoughts on the matter, but I think so.
I grew up reading books set in the early part of this century, where kids (and adults, for that matter) died -- or came close to dying -- of scarlet fever, polio, pertussis, and so on. I also grew up hearing from my mom about losing a friend in kindergarten to polio (the vaccine became common a few short years later).
Childhood diseases, with their potential for death and permanent harm, are very real to me. I get the impression this is not true of most parents who are my contemporaries.
[edit: cuz they're not all viral, and I do know better]
posted
/slight tangent 1/ *sigh* it is interesting, many dog people are becoming anti-vaccination too. I don't have links offhand, but they are often the same people who go to BARF diets for their pets (Bone And Raw Foods)
Dogs are vaccinated much more frequently than humans in general. And some states (like Oklahoma) require by law more frequent vaccinations than are actually medically indicated, which does lead to occasional side effects. But there is clearly compelling public interest for it and side effects in animals are not regarded quite the same as side effects in humans. It appears though in both the canine and human circles a lot of the anti-vax info is "urban legend" rather than fact as well.
posted
/slight tangent 2/ There have been conclusive genetic links made to both Aspergers and autism. (The research has been presented here at hatrack before, but I can dig up the statistics of engineer parents of aspergers and autistic children, which are somewhat personally frightening considering that I'm an engineer.
These genetic links appear to me to be far more conclusive than much of the foggy science that is used in autism-vax links. /end tangent 2/
/out-there hypothesis that I'm not sure how to test/ Is it possible that our "nationwide ADD" problem is inherited from our restless ancestors, who for the most part (other than the very small Native American population) travled far distances leaving friends and family behind to make it here? Perhaps it selectively weeded many of the ADD traits out of the European population remaining in Eurpope accidentally. From what I have heard (though I need numbers) ADD occurence in Europe is much lower. And it seems to be that some of the ADD traits that tie right into Asperger's and autism. I have no proof for any of this speculation so you can smack me if you wish CT. /end of out-there hypothesis/
posted
here's a typical BARF site with many more links. They are everywhere on the web. I'm not saying they are good science. I'm saying a lot of people are buying into it.
posted
Besides being very interested in the actual answer to the question I posed at the start of this thread, I'm also interested in this because I'm fascinated by the way scientific inaccuracies spread, even when there's no political agenda involved.
For example, I still see people driving around with the tailgates down (or removed) on their pickup trucks. If I talk to them, the inevitably tell me it's to improve gas mileage by cutting wind resistance. I guess they think the interior side of the tailgate would be pushing against the wind. I ask them if they compared mileage on the highway with it up and down and they look at me like I'm crazy. Of course the wind hits the tailgate - look at it - it's big and flat!
What people don't realize is that really smart engineers thought of that. If you lie down in a pickup truck at the tailgate while going down the highway (don't - it's dangerous), you won't feel wind if you stay below the sides. Why? Because the air in the pickup bed is static, just like the air in your car when the windows are closed. Ride in a convertible with retractible back windows sometime to test this for yourself.
Lowering the gate lets that air flow out, lowering air pressure behind the truck, which increases drag. The difference is very small on some trucks, bigger on others, but it's consistent.
Despite this, everyone still seems to think lowering the tailgate improves MPG. And this is something they could test easily!
With something like medicine, there's no hope for a layperson. They have to find someone they trust to get the information from, like CT . This makes is much easier for people to be mislead by someone with an ax to grind.
I was at the ASCO annual meeting in San Francisco a few years ago, and they were being protested by a group decrying "Big Pharma's" insistence on pushing chemo instead of natural therapies. It's bad enough when misinformation wastes a few gallons of gas a year. When it causes someone to forego potentially life-saving treatment it's unconscionable.
posted
Dagonee, I'll have to do some research. But from what I am aware of the static air in a pickup bed does have a drouge effect (like a kite tail, that does lower gas milage. Now I'm not sure if actually lowering the tailgate would change that. (and I wouldn't advocate lowering the tailgate for safety reasons) But, I suspect the areodyamics are on the side of the tailgate down people, and most engineers would admit it. I'll have to research further though for fact. To get the best gas milage in a pickup you actually need to put a shell on it from what I know of turbulent air flow.
And I can assure you the back seat of our convertible is horribly windy, and our gas milage does go down with the top down. though yes it could be minimized with different designs and probably are in Cadilac convertibles vs. Eclipse Spyders.
posted
and lowering air pressure behind the truck is just as likely to create lift depending on the laminar and turbulent flows. (and air pressure will Always be lower behind a vehicle.)
Bottom line: if you want good gas milage Don't buy a pickup! If you want to haul large objects frequently then do. If you want to haul large objects infrequently, and good gas milage buy a mini-van.
posted
I can't find them right now, but I'm basing this on two studies done in university wind tunnels and actual highway testing at Consumer Reports (which was reporting results of MPG testing, not any wind properties).
Most convertibles with back seats have the passenger's head sticking above the back seat, which isn't quite analagous. Where I witnessed it for myself was in a friend's Audi TT, which hase the glass windows that rise up to the roll bars. Raising it makes the wind much less. Lowering it makes the wind blow from behind into your head.
The topper was found to be better than open bed; I think camper tops were the worst for obvious reasons.
posted
now that we are completely off topic... CT I eagerly await your next relevant post to the topic.
Actually I was speaking of my dogs riding in the back seat of the convertablwho were utterly miserable well below the body of the vehicle (Yeah I have wierd dogs that don't like to stick their heads out the window, I think it has to do with the size of their ears relative to their heads)
I'd love to see the windtunnel studies to see exactly what variables they were evaluating for and whether they were using laminar or turbulent flow or what combination thereof in the wind tunnel to begin with. Like many of these things the exact setup of the experiment can generally be constructed to give you the outcome you desire.
Also a pickup tailgate is not a "wing" shape. Wing shapes can be added to many vehicles to increase mpg, and I wonder if the unwashed masses think that the tailgate is actually acting as a wing.
quote: Raising it makes the wind much less. Lowering it makes the wind blow from behind into your head.
Yeah, this is exactly what it should do. I wish turbulent fluid flow didn't require partial differential equations because it really totally makes sense. But it took me 5 semesters of fluid flow mechanics to understand it myself and I'm not good at a handwaving explanation. If I had a chalkboard in front of me and drew the flow lines it might help, but those lines are all predicted by the differential equations.
posted
CT, your point about the immediacy of the horrors is a point well taken. But my life has been full of brushes with both the autistic and those who have been damaged by other immunization reactions. My elementary school brought on 4 autism classrooms the last two years I was there. We had a neighbor whose daughter seized after her first vacc, and the doctor reassured her that it was a fluke. The daughter got another vaccine and has been in a wheelchair ever since. And of course my niece is seriously autistic, with regression between 18 and 24 months.
I'm so sick of the CDC saying "don't blame us" and not finding the cause.
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Dag, my neighbor just told me that wind drag thing. I didn't believe it any more than when my dh wanted to get a two door sedan because he said it was more aerodynamic and had better gas mileage. (I insisted on the four door).
rivka is correct, I meant Original Topic.
pooka, I too have come in contact with too many people who can make a strong case for their children being vaccine damaged to discount it and fully trust the CDC's assurances. I was first encouraged, when Matthew was an infant, to research vaccines by a co-worker whose nephew had died from anaphylaxis after his DTP. Then another co-worker told me of her son who had died od SIDS the night he had recieved his DTP.
Another friend delayed vax with her son, and he was perfectly healthy untuil he got his DTP at two years. He has been immonocomprimised ever since.
Now off to plood through and try to answer CT's post!
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posted
Toxic load theory, in a nutshell, is that because we live in such a toxic environment; pesticides, polluted water, contaminants in soils and air, that some children, are unable to process the toxins in vaccines and that causes damage ( whether long or short term).Of course like anything of a genetic factor would be assumed in some cases).
This could also help explain autism spectrum disorders (ASD) in non-vaccinated populations. So theoretically, some children have a genetic propensity to ASD's; toxic overloads may trigger the onset of these, and these toxic overloads may come from a variety of sources, of which vaccines are only one possible source.
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quote: /out-there hypothesis that I'm not sure how to test/ Is it possible that our "nationwide ADD" problem is inherited from our restless ancestors, who for the most part (other than the very small Native American population) travled far distances leaving friends and family behind to make it here? Perhaps it selectively weeded many of the ADD traits out of the European population remaining in Eurpope accidentally. From what I have heard (though I need numbers) ADD occurence in Europe is much lower. And it seems to be that some of the ADD traits that tie right into Asperger's and autism. I have no proof for any of this speculation so you can smack me if you wish CT. /end of out-there hypothesis/
This is an interesting theory. I have always felt that many of the diagnosed cases of ADD are infact the result of people being forced to fulfill a sedentary role that they were never meant to.
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posted
Ct just want to interject a post to say that I admire you very much for what you do, I could never face many of the things that you face on a daily basis (well, the peeing, pooping and biting I can deal with). Of course both parents and peds have the children's best interest in mind; of course they will disagree sometimes.( I view this as inevitable, hey, I don't even agree with my hubby about lots of childrearing issues.) I have worked in child care much of my life, sometimes in less than ideal conditions, so I do know that feeling of sending a child home and worrying about them.
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quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What I took formt he exceprt is that, while that survey does not PROVE that thimerosol exposure causes developmental delays, it certainly raises enough questions to call for further study, if possible, by a neutral party. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cool. I can understand that. What would convincing evidence to the contrary look like to you? (There are many such contrary studies cited in the CDC link re: autism above.)
UNfortunatley, what I would consider compelling evidence I would also consider unethical. I would be a convinced by taking two groups of children, of equal size and heath history, and vaccinating one group with thimersol containing vaccines, and the other group with thimerosol free vaccines, and following them until they reached grade shool, giving developmental tests, say, every six months. But ( to draw an analogy) that would be like taking two groups of kids, feeding one group genetically modified foods, the other non-GMO food, and then testing them over the course of their lives to see if GMO's can affect health. It seems to me, that since there is sufficient doubt to cause parents to withhold vaccines, the prudent course would be to simply remove thimerosol from ALL vaccines, including recalling any still on the market.
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Rep Dave Weldon is an MD and pro-vaccination, yet feels many of the studies promoting the safety of thimerosol in vaccines are flawed. Jeez, I'm quoting a Rebuplican in support of my views. Watch for four horsemen.
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posted
Romanylass, I want to thank you for your contributions to the thread, too.I'm still digesting all this, but it's always good to have a skeptic around, especially one willing to do research.
posted
Lol, if I had children I would sign them up for the GMO study myself. I feel that strongly that GMOs are just fine, and I suspect I know some parents that would actually be willing to do the same. But that's a side topic.
posted
I'm sure you mean all GMO's that are Generally Recogzined As Safe by the USDA. You know, Antifreeze is used in national brand petfood because it is GRAS. That is, the amounts of antifreeze they used don't statistically shorten the life of housepets.
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quote: Lol, if I had children I would sign them up for the GMO study myself. I feel that strongly that GMOs are just fine, and I suspect I know some parents that would actually be willing to do the same. But that's a side topic.
I'm with AJ, and I have kids. I know quite a lot about GMO foods too. Would have ZERO compunction about eating any that I know of.
(CT, if you're avoiding KamaCon for YOU, I totally (if sadly) support that. Oxygen masks! If you're avoiding it for the rest of us, the answer is simple. I will monopolize you! And I am not "being nice." Pfffft! I am really looking forward to meeting you! How about we take turns ranting at each other? Would that work for you?)
posted
*doubtful* It's going to have to be a commercial one -- the one my mom has simply won't take anything larger than a hand.
Are you planning to take an anti-inflammatory first? *tries desperately to re-rail post* Because that's what I was always advised to do before the MMR was administered.
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posted
The toxic load theory seems odd to me. If you're so overloaded by environmental factors that you cannot process a vaccine properly the slightest increase in pathogens would make you get sick. Essentially you'd be in the advance stages of AIDS. This seems wrong to me.
I have big problems with unlabelled GMOs. People should be allowed some sort of a choice and they're being denied it right now. This squicks me out. And, I'll be honest, I'm leery of the whole GMO world. I don't think the laws regarding their testing are stringent enough, and the idea of copyrighting an organism gives me the willies. Although that may be more of a personal issue.
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posted
CT don't feel so bad, I didn't mean for you to. It is just I realized my theory was basically speculation and you were trying so hard (and successfully for the most part) to keep the conversation fact based, which is why in my view you would have had a right to yell at me a little (ok kill is a bit extreme but I tend towards hyperbole at times.)
BtL, one of the main reasons I have no problems with GMO's is because of the pH of human stomach acid. Not one bit of any food actually gets incorporated raw into our own DNA. It still gets broken down to its basic building blocks which aren't any different than anything else we eat.
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Um, if it helps, I blithely skipped past 7000 (and now 8000) with nothing more than a nod. I plan to do the same with 9000, unless something else comes up before then. (I figure, I did 1000, 3000, and 6000. The next in that sequence would be 10,000.)![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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. This makes is much easier for people to be mislead by someone with an ax to grind.![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
And I am not "being nice." Pfffft! I am really looking forward to meeting you! How about we take turns ranting at each other? Would that work for you?)![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
Go in peace, and return in peace.
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