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One thing I disliked about the movies is that they showed Aragorn's character incorrectly, in that they showed him as reluctant to take up the quest and the burden of fighting against Sauron and returning his line to kingship over humans in Middle Earth. This is slander. Aragorn from his earliest youth (he grew up in Rivendell with Elrond) was an enemy of Sauron and embraced his destiny.

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Part of that was the whole "Galadriel as Large Marge" bit when she's offered the ring

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"...the longevity of the Quendi[Elves] was derived
primarily from their fëar[souls], whose nature or 'doom'
was to abide in Arda[Earth] until its end. Therefore, after
the vitality of the hröa[body] was expended in achieving
full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly
indeed, but to all the Quendi perceptibly. For a while it
would be fortified and maintained by its indwelling fëa,
and then its vitality would begin to ebb, and its desire
for physical life and joy in it would pass ever more
swiftly away. Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for
these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to
'fade', until the fëa as it were consumed the hröa until it
remained only in the love and memory of the spirit that had
inhabited it.

But in Aman[Valinor], since its blessing descended upon the
hröa of the Eldar[another name for the Elves], as upon all
other bodies, the hröa aged only apace with the fëar, and
the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in
full maturity and in undimmed power of body and spirit
conjoined for ages beyond our mortal comprehension."

Text XI Myths Transformed

***

This does not necessarily mean that Men would live forever
- they might live longer (or not cf the example of Lúthien
:the wise have said that the Silmaril hastened their end;
for the flame of the beauty of Lúthien as she wore it was
too bright for mortal lands.) as do the creatures of Aman
(all those creatures that were thither transplanted or were
trained or bred or brought into being for the purpose of
inhabitation in Aman were given a speed of growth such that
one year of the life natural to their kinds on Earth should
in Aman be one Valian Year.), but despite a possible
prolongation of life, the fëar of Men was not intended for
eternal life within Arda. [As this was a post-Lord of the
Rings essay, the Valian year was 144 years of the Sun. Thus
a human body in Aman might be able to live for up to 144
times its Natural span in Middle-earth] However this is not
as straight-forward as it appears. Tolkien addresses the
possibility of Men dwelling in Aman in the continuation of
the cited text:Quote:
But let us suppose that the 'blessing of Aman' was also
accorded to Men.* What then? Would a great good be done to
them? Their bodies would still come swiftly to full growth.
In the seventh part of a [Valian] year a Man could be born
and become full-grown, as swiftly as in Aman a bird would
hatch and fly from the nest. But then it would not wither
or age but would endure in vigour and in the delight of
bodily living. But what of that Man's fëar? Its nature and
'doom' could not be changed, neither by the health of Aman
nor by the will of Manwë[King of the gods/Valar] himself.
Yet it is (as the Eldar hold) its nature and doom under the
will of Eru Iluvatar[God] that it should not endure Arda
for long, but should depart and go elsewhither, returning
maybe direct to Eru for another fate or purpose that is
beyond the knowledge or guess of the Eldar.

Very soon then the fëar and hröa of a Man in Aman would not
be united and at peace, but would be opposed, to the great
pain of both. The hröa being in full vigour and joy of life
would cling to the fëa, lest its departure should bring
death; and against death it would revolt as would a great
beast in full life either flee from the hunter or turn
savagely upon him. But the fëa would be as it were in
prison, becoming ever more weary of all the delights of the
hröa, until they were loathsome to it, longing ever more
and more to be gone, until even those matters for its
thought that it received through the hröa and its senses
became meaningless. The Man would not be blessed, but
accursed; and he would curse the Valar and Aman and all the
things of Arda. And he would not willingly leave Aman, for
that would mean rapid death, and he would have to be thrust
forth with violence. But if he remained in Aman, what
should he come to, ere Arda were at last fulfilled and he
found release? Either his fëa would be wholly dominated by
the hröa, and he would become more like a beast, though one
tormented within. Or else, if his fëa were strong, it would
leave the hröa, Then one of two things would happen: either
this would be accomplished only in hate, by violence, and
the hröa, in full life, would be rent and die in sudden
agony; or else the fëa would in loathing and without pity
desert the hröa, and it would live on, a witless body, not
even a beast but a monster, a very work of Melkor in the
midst of Aman, which the Valar themselves would fain
destroy.

Now these things are but matters of thought, and
might-have-beens; for Eru and the Valar under Him have not
permitted Men as they are to dwell in Aman. Yet at least it
may be seen that Men in Aman would not escape the dread of
death, but would have it in greater degree and for long
ages. And moreover, it seems probable that death itself,
either in agony or horror, would with Men enter into Aman
itself.
* [Footnote] Or (as some Men hold) that their hröar are not
by nature short-lived, but have become so through the
malice of Melkor over and above the general marring of
Arda, and that this hurt could be healed and undone in
Aman.

Myths Transformed, Text XI, Aman, HOME X, Morgoth's Ring.

Thus at best, the animal nature of the human hröa would
dominate the entrapped fëa and the 'prolonged' Man would
live as a beast; or else he would either die in agony or
his hröa would live as a mindless shell after his fëa
abandoned it. This would not apply to Tuor, who had his
'kind' changed by the express action of Eru; or the
Ringbearers, who would eventually choose to accept the Gift
of Ilúvatar with estel long before their fëar and hröar
became 'disunited'.

[The Akallabêth, it must be remembered, is a Númenórean
text, and thus (to my mind) of lesser credibility than JRRT
writing as Editor and Redactor of all available
Middle-earth lore, as he does in his Essays. Thus while
Elendil might record in that work:Quote:
The Eldar reported these words to the Valar, and Manwë was
grieved, seeing a cloud gather on the noontide of Númenor.
And he sent messengers to the Dúnedain, who spoke earnestly
to the King, and to all who would listen, concerning the
fate and fashion of the world.

'The Doom of the World,' they said, 'One alone can change
who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all
deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed
Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land
of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless
that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you
would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a
light too strong and steadfast.'

'Akallabêth, The Silmarillion,

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Let the self proclaimed Tolkien scholar and geek-boy help!

Tolkien DID say the Elves had pointy ears. Well... the actual quote is that they are "leaf shaped"... but it's about the same thing.

But Tolkien didn't make too much of a deal about ears. To him the eyes were most important. It looked like reflected stars in their eyes (you can really see this in the Galadriel scenes). And of course the High Elves had a glow about them, residue from the Uttermost West.

Now, even though I'm a purist I'm also a pragmatist. I enjoyed the Elves at Helm's Deep as it reflected the themes from the Silmarillion. And I thought the Elves marching into Helm's Deep was really cool ....why? Because to me it showed their cultural superiority and how advanced they are over the fallen civilizations of Man.

And so called Balrog debate? Pha...
If people would just read the book they would see that the Balrog DID have wings.

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The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and it's wings were spread from wall to wall ; but still Gandalf could still be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

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My favourite description of the elves is in the last part of the Appendix on the Eldar, where Tolkien gives a wonderful final summarising description of them, can't quote it, but I love it.

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Yah... it makes me cry...

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For me, in the books, the two most powerful scenes were Frodo at the Ford of Bruinen, when the Nazgul were calling him to come to Mordor, and Gollum at the Cracks of Doom. Incredibly powerful.

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How was it different? I couldn't get through the LOTR books. Sorry, don't hate me.

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At least it wasn't as bad as the ford scene in this movie. I've read the books about 5 times, and I still can't follow that scen in the movie.

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It was not enjoyable.

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Both people change, and almost succumb to the One Rings power, although for different reasons....the ring exerts itself very differently with those who have borne it or another Ring of Power, and I think the movies did a great job showing that.

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To his amazement he found that he was no longer looking at Bilbo; a shadow seemed to have fallen between them, and and through it he found himself eying a little wrinkled creature with a hungry face and bony groping hands. He felt a desire to strike him.

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I agree that in the book Bilbo was stronger, but how else would PJ be able to emphasized the power that the Ring still had over Bilbo. I always got the feeling that Bilbo was on the verge of taking the Ring there, but that Frodo stopped him. The movie just exaggerated it ...and not really that much. Bilbo still stopped, and realized the power of the Ring.......

I found one of the things I didn't like about the movies was the infantilism of the hobbits. In the books, hobbits were every bit as brave and intelligent as huimans...perhaps more so even, as they were always at a physical disadvantage against others. In the movies they were comical relief. Merry and Pippen planned with Sam to follow Frodo, as they had figured out that something was up.....but in the movies they fell into the adventure by accident, simply by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. They survived the Barrows and the Old Forest, although they had a lot of help, but that showed how resilient they were and how they were taking an active role in their own survival.

In the movies, they don't really ever come into their own until the last movie, and even then things had to be fabricated to show their newfound maturity. Who scaled a tower to light the beacons? I forgot that...lol....and so did Tolkien, I guess..

I understand that they couldn't show everything, and I feel that they did a great job in trying to keep the same flavor as the books....

But how much more would it have cost to have Glamdring glow in the Mines of Moria?

Kwea

PS all spellig erors r mine

[ August 04, 2004, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]

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