posted
No, I think you are misunderstanding. Depression leads to physical abuse of others almost always when drug use is part of the equation. When drug abuse isn't a factor, it is far less common. Drug abuse is connected with domestic abuse outside of using the depressive label as well. In just about any of the equations, drug abuse is the one part that tips the scales into physical or domestic abuse. I feel that your statements are discounting that part.
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posted
Jutsa, I think the point is... Correlation does not justify Causation.
It's not enough to say that the two things exist at the same time in Alaska. Not even to say that the same people are both things.
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"From a geographic standpoint, the incidence of SAD increases as you approach the poles of the earth. This is apparently due to the decreasing exposure to sunlight in these regions during the winter. In Florida the incidence of SAD is about 1%, whereas in Alaska it is closer to 10%."
I have to add that I know MANY people who use marijuana like an antidepressant. I am NOT saying that it is a good thing, but many people do. So, I WONDER if this is why there is a higher level of drug abuse in Alaska.
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Dabbler, That is what I am trying (very poorly) to say.
Jutsa, I agree with you, that drug and alcohol abuse often pushes people over the line into physical abuse.
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quote:It's not enough to say that the two things exist at the same time in Alaska. Not even to say that the same people are both things.
It is when talking nationally. I don't know if such statistics are on the web, but I recall a very strong correlation being drawn between drug abuse and domestic/physical abuse. In fact, it is a correlation pointed out in many clinics and by many therapists on a regular basis. Are there really enough anecdotes to say that the generally accepted opinions of those in the mental and physical health field and the publications therein are false?
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posted
I've got a practical concern and question - it's one I heard raised maybe 20 years ago or more by a former law enforcement official.
States set legal limits on assumed intoxication with alcohol based on blood alcohol content. There's a good reason for that - drunk people injure and kill when behind the wheels of cars.
Is there any reliable test to determine "intoxication" with marijuana? What about interactive effects between it and alcohol.
(I understand that the active ingredients hang around in the bloodstream, so the presence alone wouldn't be sufficient to determine intoxication.)
This doesn't mean I'm necessarily against legalization - I think there are way too many young people in prison for nonviolent drug offenses.
But I would really like to hear about any thinking that's gone into traffic safety issues - monitoring and testing, etc.
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There is a law int the works which could test drivers for substances other than alcohol. The problem is just what you say, you cannot tell WHEN a person was using marijuana, as it would show up in their bloodstream hours, days, and weeks after use.
As to driving while smoking marijuana, there is definitely an effect. Reaction time is affected, and other things as well.
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HERE might be a launching point of interest -- although I haven't yet found the initial study that they cite.
quote:The study by Reeves et al. (1979) provided some of the first insight into the extent of marijuana use by motor vehicle operators. Reeves et al., showed that 16% of a selected sample of arrested drivers had cannabinoids in their urine. These data were consistent with those reported by Cimbura who also tested for cannabinoids in blood and urine. The fatally injured driver study by Terhune et al. (1992) further documented the extent of marijuana use and also indicated that cocaine use by drivers might be of growing concern.
posted
Jutsa, you're speaking of a generality and applying it to Alaska. And what has been pointed out is that Alaska doesn't necessarily fit the stereotype from which studies have been drawn. I would say that Alaska has a different enough culture and climate to warrant critical thinking when analyzing the facts.
Even if many incidents of domestic abuse are caused by drug abuse, there are many incidents of domestic abuse that aren't caused by drug abuse. And the question that was raised is, isn't it possible that Alaska has a climate that predisposes them to another factor that may cause domestic abuse?
I think the problem you're having is that you believe we're trying to say that No domestic abuse is caused by drug abuse, while I'm actually saying, Not all domestic abuse is caused by drug abuse.
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quote: Depression leads to physical abuse of others almost always when drug use is part of the equation. When drug abuse isn't a factor, it is far less common.
Justa,
I personally am someone who suffered domestic abuse at the hands of someone who suffers from depression, but does NOT partake of drugs.
I know you said it was uncommon, not non-existant, so I'm not arguing against your point here at all. I was just mentioning that I know it does happen without drug use involved.
posted
"Are there really enough anecdotes to say that the generally accepted opinions of those in the mental and physical health field and the publications therein are false?"
I don't think so. However, if you take Alaska alone, I do not think it is a valid study of drug/alcohol abuse related to domestic(or other) violence.
Well, I don't know, though. Perhaps Alaska would be a good place to study, since the rate of depression is higher? But I think that would be the case only if you were relating depression to alcohol abuse to domestc violence.
Basically, I am confused now.
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posted
And I think too many here are going to have personal bias when judging the correlation that is already documented within the medical field. Maybe one of the doctors or phsychology/phsychiatry people here have the data readily available?
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I have been searching the internet for more information because for some reason I do find this all very intriguing. I don't know how much you can separate drug abuse, depression, the SADS issue, and domestic abuse, or if you can separate them at all.
posted
Justa, I've been reading over this thread, and I'm a little confused. It seems to me that your arguement boils down to a statement that correlation does equal causation. Am I reading you correctly?
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posted
No, I'm saying that the causation is already discussed at length by the medical field, and the only statements disputing that in this thread are anecdotal.
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posted
I've lived in Anchorage, Alaska my entire life. Depression is a huge issue right around September/October, but I don't think that depression is the main cause of drug use. A lot of the biggest drug problems are in the little villages out in the middle of nowhere. There are so many people here against legalizing it that I don't think it will happen any time soon.
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posted
Thread seems like as good an excuse as any for posting a fondly remembered song from a severly misspent youth:
quote:In the first days of this country When the buffalo roamed the land, All the saddle tramps and cowboys Used to roll their own by hand, They'd swing up to the saddle On their ass or on their horse, And recite a little ditty That went like this, of course:
When your feet are in the stirrups And your ass is on the ground 'Cause the grass that he's been eating Is the finest stuff around, Well, let us not remember, boys, And let us not forget: Strike a match and light another Marijuana cigarette!
Ah, you have heard of evil, And you've heard of misery, And you've heard of Richard Nixon, But you haven't heard of me! You may think they go together, And you may think they do not, But there ain't much you'll be thinkin' When you've started smoking pot!
You can smoke it, you can eat it, You can mix it with your beer, You can hang it on your wall And you can hang it in your ear; And if you've got the notion, And if he's got the class, You can shove it in your feedbag And feed it to your ass!
When your feet are in the stirrups And your ass is on the ground 'Cause the grass that he's been eating Is the finest stuff around, Well, let us not remember, boys, And let us not forget: Strike a match and light another Marijuana cigarette! (Words and music by Jay Ungar & Cat Mother and the All Night Newsboys From Albion Doo-Wah (Polydor 24-40-23)
quote: I think there are way too many young people in prison for nonviolent drug offenses.
I don't know anything about how many people are in prison for what, but is legalizing marajuana really the best way to deal with this issue?
I side with Farmgirl in that it would be difficult if not disasterous to make cigarettes (tobacco/nicotine) and alcohol illegal because of their popularity and the lofty powers behind them. There is too much momentum to do a 180 turn.
But I think a society/culture where they had always been illegal would be a much happier, more stable society than the one in which we live. (Easy for me to say since I use neither.) I don't see legalizing marajuana as making society any better than it is. It is illegal now, and I am fine keeping it that way. Especially since, as has been said here, there is not nearly enough evidence for a strong case of it making society better.
Someone said they don't think a movement for legalizing marajuana would pass in Alaska. I hope that is the case, because it would complicate matters to have an addictive substance legal in one state while illegal in all others. IMO, it would be much more difficult to regulate drugs passing illegally between states than illegally between countries. Regulation between states would be a nightmare. The fact that Alaska does not border any other state would make it easier than if, say, Tenessee made the jump. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Regarding cannabis, alcohol and driving, I've seen a very small number of research reports. The best one was years ago by a doc out of Colorado. He was able to tease out the effects of cannabis alone, alcohol alone, and the two in combination with a fairly reliable methodology.
His results: cannabis -- no measurable effect on driving safety. alcohol -- large negative effect on driving safety. both together -- worse effect than either alone.
Since then, the conventional wisdom has been to acknowledge that alcohol is probably the worse of the two drugs in terms of its effect on driving, and that, in general, those who smoke weed are also drinking so their bad driving from the alcohol is made worse by the combination with cannabis.
Ultimately, I think many states aren't going to worry much about marijuana testing because so many of the people caught with that drug in their systems are also drunk. And if you are driving really erratically, they can indeed take you in and have your blood or urine tested first for alcohol and then for any other drugs.
If you are driving "under the influence" of drugs or alcohol in most states, you will be charged with that crime if you are caught. Even if the BAC level is below the per se limit.
Ultimately, the bottom line is that no-one should drink and then drive. And no-one should use drugs and then drive.
We'll never have zero tolerance laws for adults in this country. But on a personal level, I feel that the right decision is simply to avoid driving when under the influence of ANYTHING that might adversely affect your driving performance even a little bit.
The problem is that under most circumstances, you'll be safe and no problems. But every once in awhile, something comes up that you'll need every bit of skill to deal with. If you are performing below your best level, then, to me, you are at least partially to blame for the subsequent crash. I know that I would be devastated to know that I was even partly to blame for the injury or death of another person.
And that is the risk I avoid. The feeling of guilt over not being at my best behind the wheel when something bad happens.
Sappy, I know. But after thinking about this for a long time from every angle I've been exposed to, that is the only decision that makes real sense to me. The law doesn't matter nearly as much to me as the personal responsibility angle.
quote:it would complicate matters to have an addictive substance legal in one state while illegal in all others
As far as I know, no study has ever found that marijuana is physically addictive. Depending on the person in question, it can be psychologically addictive, but the same can be said about almost anything.
quote:I don't know anything about how many people are in prison for what, but is legalizing marajuana really the best way to deal with this issue?
It may not be the best way. And I'm not sure I'm 100% for decriminalizing marijuana. I just think that--assuming marijuana use is a problem--the problem is not one that will ever go away.
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quote: As far as I know, no study has ever found that marijuana is physically addictive. Depending on the person in question, it can be psychologically addictive, but the same can be said about almost anything.
Interesting. I don't know enough about this to comment.
quote: I just think that--assuming marijuana use is a problem--the problem is not one that will ever go away.
You know, I kind of feel this way about murder, rape, and child/spouse abuse, but that doesn't mean I want to legalize it. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Murder, rape, child abuse, theft, etc. involve others. Drug use is like homosexuality- doubtless the people who do it are horrible diseased freaks, but it only involves the willing. Of course, people will use it to make excuses for the above, but that is a lie. It is entirely possible to control one's actions while intoxicated.
Also, marijuana might replace alcohol, which would be a good thing for people's physical health if nothing else.
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quote: Also, marijuana might replace alcohol, which would be a good thing for people's physical health if nothing else.
I don't know...marijuana might not have nicotine but it still involves inhaling smoke on a regular basis.
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posted
It is not good for you to inhale it constantly, but it can also be eaten. On a per cigarette basis marijuana smoke gives more tar, but then even heavy smokers go through much less marijuana than people who do nicotine. Edit: This is one area where legalization would help. If it was cheap enough to cook marijuana all the time, I and many others would do so. /edit
Homosexuals and drug users are obviously diseased. Sure, they may do something that involves only those who consent to it, but the fact remains that happiness is wrong. Remember, homosexuality really was considered a disease thirty years ago, and people who use mind-altering drugs are also diseased, or using them to treat a disease. It is inconceivable that healthy people would want a relationship with the same gender, or to alter their thought processes to more enjoyable ones.
posted
I don't think anyone needs to worry about marijuana becoming legal in Alaska. John Ashcroft won't even allow medical marijuana in California.
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Yes, because medicinal marijuana is obviously a front for people to get high... especially the people who turn down narcotics in favor of cannabis.
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quote: It is inconceivable that healthy people would want a relationship with the same gender, or to alter their thought processes to more enjoyable ones.
Whether or not the actions of marajuana users effect others is debatable. Certainly murder, rape, and abuse are more damaging to society. My point was just that because something isn't going to go away is not reason in and of itself to legalize it. I am more concerned about whether legalizing it will be a good thing. And while there may not be enough evidence to say for sure that it is bad, there does not appear to be enough evidence to call it good for society either. Why fix somethin' if it ain't broke?
quote:As recently, Bob, when I was cold-stone sober in the AM, driving my family to work. I stopped at the light. The RAM behind me didn't.
There wasn't much I could do even though I was at a peak of sobriety. The kid who rear-ended us was sober as well. But not very aware.
Grrrr....
Yes...bad things can happen EVEN WHEN everyone is awake and sober. Adding diminished capacity into the mix just seems like a bad idea to me.
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posted
Because it is broken. Who does it help to send me to prison for smoking a joint, eating a pill, or slapping on a fentanyl patch? It does not help me. It does not help society, because a criminal record means that I would have more incentive to commit antisocial acts in revenge. It is not as if anyone who wants drugs cannot get them. I used to give a shit about this country, but now I do not. I do not believe that me taking any drug or selling any drug to an adult is an action worthy of being sent to prison, where as a young white male of small build who is unaffiliated with a gang I will most likely be raped.
You are aware that the reason marijuana was made illegal was because Mexicans smoked it and seduced white women, right? (Well, that and DuPont wanted to market their wood-based paper and needed to destroy the hemp market.) Cocaine turned the Negro into a wild animal who would rape white women. Chinese opium smokers would seduce white women. Racism and economics are the reasons drugs are illegal. There was a time when MDMA was sold legally in bars (as well as given to psychiatric patients), and the nation did not get destroyed.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: Someone said they don't think a movement for legalizing marajuana would pass in Alaska. I hope that is the case, because it would complicate matters to have an addictive substance legal in one state while illegal in all others.
It seems to me that it would simplify matters GREATLY to,you know, have actual evidence one way or the other instead of guessing. Just like gay marriage.
By the way, Bev, I'm really digging on your posts recently.
I have to say that I am kind of ambivalent about using a yardstick of whether something benefits society as to whether it should be legal. After all, you would have a tough time showing that roleplaying games, science fiction books, the color purple, comic books, The Backstreet Boys, and Mayberry RFD, or prayer, are beneficial to many in society. What is 'beneficial', ie pleasurable, to someone is not for someone else and is a complete waste of time. The issue, to me, should revolve around harm.
That drugs cause problems for some people and not others seems to me to be true.
The question, for me, isn't whether those people who have problems because of drugs shouldn't hurt other people. Obviously, they shouldn't. It should most definitely be against the law to hurt someone else.
Given this, though, society, the state, should not *assume* that someone is guilty until they do the crime. There are shades of grey to this. If you get behind the wheel of a car and you're high, I'm o.k. with you being arrested. What I"m not o.k. with is someone being arrested who possesses or is high and doesn't pose a threat to society. To arrest someone in this instance harms *them* very greviously through court costs, time in the legal system, if they are sent to jail, the fact of being in jail or prison is extremely traumatic. In this instance, the cure is most definitely to me much worse than the so-called disease.
People can get high and not become junkies. People can monitor themselves and stop themselves before they do something stupid. I'm proof of that. I used and stopped. I drink the occasional beer, or glass of wine, and don't drive when I do so and don't over indulge over time. So, the fact of usign a substance does NOT mean that the person is an addict.
Let me throw something else out there just for fun. Much of the problem with alchohol and drugs comes from getting behind the wheel of a car. I can tell you, if the public transit system didn't suck so badly in many parts of the country, you would have a lot fewer DUIs. Am I saying that our country should put more emphasis on mass transit just for the druggies? Of course not. But I think just one of the benefits of such a system would be a decreased incidence of peopel getting behind the wheel of a car when they're impaired.
So, I guess I"m saying that my solution to the whole problem would be three-fold. First, make pot legal. Second, make penalties for driving under the influence stiff. Or keep them stiff as the case might be. Third, throw some money at a good mass transit system.
If my last comment derails the thread, sorry. I would love to read a thread on what people think the pros and cons of mass transit are. It's been an issue in Florida (light rail) for some time. I'm guessing it's an issue in other communities as well. I'd be interested in hearing what other people think, though I wouldn't be able to post anything until Monday.
quote: because a criminal record means that I would have more incentive to commit antisocial acts in revenge.
I'm not sure this is any stronger an argument than the point that marajuana can often lead to more damaging and addictive drugs.
quote: I do not believe that me taking any drug or selling any drug to an adult is an action worthy of being sent to prison, where as a young white male of small build who is unaffiliated with a gang I will most likely be raped.
Hmmm, rather effective motivation to not break the law, eh? You know what the law is, you can keep it.
quote: You are aware that the reason marijuana was made illegal was because Mexicans smoked it and seduced white women, right? (Well, that and DuPont wanted to market their wood-based paper and needed to destroy the hemp market.) Cocaine turned the Negro into a wild animal who would rape white women. Chinese opium smokers would seduce white women. Racism and economics are the reasons drugs are illegal.
Let's just say I am skeptical.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: It seems to me that it would simplify matters GREATLY to,you know, have actual evidence one way or the other instead of guessing. Just like gay marriage. [Wink]
Didn't we already determine that other areas have tried the experiment? The evidence wasn't conclusive one way or the other. Not sufficient reason to legalize it.
Oh, and thanks, Stormy.
Edit: Let's just say that while I am not adamately against legalizing marajuana, and I have heard interesting points in it's favor, nothing I have heard so far has convinced me that it is the way to go. I guess I have reasons deep down to believe that these sorts of drugs are not a healthy thing to be involved with, and that is a difficult belief to shake. Granted that is not always a reason to make something illegal, but I have not seen sufficient reason to legalize it either.
Edit2: This actually seems to be very similar to pornography. I am a person who would enjoy living in a world where hard porn and perhaps even some soft porn were illegal. I know a lot of people here would adamately disagree with that. Particularly those who enjoy such things. But others too, because of the "freedom of speech" issue. (Though I am one who firmly believes that it was not the intention of our founding fathers where "freedom of speech" is concerned to allow people to be as crude or indecent as they wish.) Many argue that pornography harms no one. But like mind-altering drugs, some people have problems with it. But it is not a reason to make it illegal.
Let's just say the main reason I am against making porn illegal is that it is so difficult to define what is and what is not porn. I will have to be content to trying my best to keep it out of mainstream and away from my family.
It is easier to be "black and white" about marajuana than about porn.
posted
When the evidence is inconclusive, it's often beneficial to run more tests. Try more permutations and combinations to see what's what.
In any case, if the evidence is inconclusive, I prefer to err on the side of the individual for reasons already given. That is, the legal system often 'harms' people far more than the legalizing drugs would.
By the way, I'm a little perturbed--o.k., no, a lot perturbed by this comment:
quote: quote: I do not believe that me taking any drug or selling any drug to an adult is an action worthy of being sent to prison, where as a young white male of small build who is unaffiliated with a gang I will most likely be raped.
Hmmm, rather effective motivation to not break the law, eh? You know what the law is, you can keep it.
Please reconsider the argument of enforcing the law through any means necessary. Not to belabor a point, but, again, the cure in some cases really is much worse than the disease.
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quote: Please reconsider the argument of enforcing the law through any means necessary. Not to belabor a point, but, again, the cure in some cases really is much worse than the disease.
My comment was meant to be read with a twinkle of humor in my eyes, but I do think there is some truth to it. If we as a country deem there is no good reason for the law, then we must do away with it. But I for one am unconvinced. I would rather keep it illegal. And an individual can choose whether or not to break the law.
Edit: Like how I don't feel too sorry for my child when I told them over and over that if they try to put a whole roll of toilet paper into the potty, they are going to get a spank and they go ahead and do it anyway and are so shocked when they get spanked.
I will concede that perhaps the punishment in this case does not fit the crime. I really don't know what I think about it.
posted
Storm, I don't want any prisoner to be raped. I wouldn't wish that on the vilest of sinners. I wish there were some way to prevent it.
My only point is, if you don't want to go to prison, don't break the law.
In other words, if you don't like the law, instead of choosing to break it, speak out like Danzing is doing and try to change how people think about it. Who knows? He might change my mind.
posted
Well, I do break the law as often as I can afford to, which is usually one or more times per day. I also smoke out everyone I know, not because I really expect to be paid back, but because it may be one less year on my sentence if they become the judge.
I have more incentive to get your kids smoking pot (or using any other drug) now than I would were they legal. You see, perhaps if your kid is a drug user, you might vote for easier laws. On the other hand, I am totally cool with people who choose not to use in general, and if drugs were legal I could care less if they used or not.
Why do you want drugs (or pot specifically) kept illegal? No one is making you use it. Alcohol is legal, but I use that sparingly unless I run out of marijuana. If PCP were legalized tomorrow, I would not go out and buy some. Why do you believe people are irresponsible? What is wrong with someone who shoots up heroin as long as he can afford his habit? (Not that anyone would shoot up if heroin were legal, of course. Much more pleasant to eat it.)
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posted
I suppose the homosexuals in Texas before Lawrence should have just not had sex, because it was against the law. Blacks, Jews, and Irish need to get the hell out of my restaurant - the sign says whites only.
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If there were no prison rape, I would seriously consider committing a crime and going there on purpose. Drugs are availabe in prisons, and room and board are free. I still do not feel that prison (or anything else) is an appropriate punishment, but freeloading is freeloading, and I would jump at the chance to have the government buy my drugs.
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quote: Well, I do break the law as often as I can afford to, which is usually one or more times per day.
I am thinking of my 3-year-old emptying whole rolls of toilet paper into a potty at least once a day. It really sucks, BTW. It uses up valued TP and it pugs up potties and makes a stinky mess.
quote: I have more incentive to get your kids smoking pot (or using any other drug) now than I would were they legal.
Explain.
quote: You see, perhaps if your kid is a drug user, you might vote for easier laws.
Or I might be really disappointed with my child for breaking the law when they knew better.
quote: Why do you want drugs (or pot specifically) kept illegal? No one is making you use it. Alcohol is legal, but I use that sparingly unless I run out of marijuana. If PCP were legalized tomorrow, I would not go out and buy some. Why do you believe people are irresponsible? What is wrong with someone who shoots up heroin as long as he can afford his habit? (Not that anyone would shoot up if heroin were legal, of course. Much more pleasant to eat it.)
Keep in mind that I am someone who would be perfectly happy in a society where alcohol and pornography were illegal. It is easy for me to feel that way since those things mean nothing to me. It would be different for someone who uses and enjoys them (as you use and enjoy mind-altering drugs).
I think that these things have a negative effect on the individual. And while that is perhaps not enough incentive for something to be illegal, I think that spills over into the lives of others enough that it damages our society.
I am thinking of the protagonist, Lewis Woo, in the Ringworld series who is totally addicted to a pleasure-causing device in the second book. His is an extreme example. His life had become useless because he spent absolutely as much time as he could afford on the device. When something is so powerfully seductive that it can enslave humans, I don't want anyone using it.
It can be bought and sold. People can become filthy rich off of such power (as tobacco and alcohol companies have become) and it becomes in their best interest to seduce and enslave more people. Those who matter to me can be seduced. Heck, I could have been seduced.
Now, while Hatrack is an addiction for me, and one I could keep under better discipline, it does not alter my state of mind and judgement the way mind-altering drugs do (and this includes alcohol!) I believe that the mind-altering properties have at least two negative effects. First, the irrational hunger to have more. While I my enjoyment of Hatrack makes me hunger to stay on here all the time to the neglect of my house and children, it does not impair my mindstate or cause me to be physically sick from withdrawl (I am also thinking of caffine here and the headaches people get when trying to get off of it.) Second, I believe mind-altering drugs can alter your judgement, remove inhibitions that ought to be in place, and more easily put you under the influence of other bad and unhealthy things. I don't know how much you believe this considering you use them, but there are plenty of people who don't care that cigarrettes are harming their health. They enjoy them too much to give them up. They basically are willing to pay the price of sickness and even death to keep their habit.
I believe addictions of any kind are harmful, including my Hatrack addiction. I would be annoyed if someone tried to outlaw Hatrack or the internet because of addiction because of the good they represent and provide in exchange. And because I would have to give up something I love very much.
I honestly don't think the harm of my Hatrack addiction is worth cutting it out of my life altogether. Perhaps that is how you feel about the substances that you use. I happen to feel that they are harmful enough and without benefit enough to justify the illegal aspect. What benefit do you get beyond enjoyment? Hatrack educates me, it enriches my understanding, it allows me to touch the lives of others for (I hope) good, it brings good people into my life who touch my life for good. What justification do your habits have? (Don't get too mad at my use of the word "habit". If you are using it at least once a day, it fits the definition.)
quote: If there were no prison rape, I would seriously consider committing a crime and going there on purpose. Drugs are availabe in prisons, and room and board are free. I still do not feel that prison (or anything else) is an appropriate punishment, but freeloading is freeloading, and I would jump at the chance to have the government buy my drugs.
Interesting. I understand there are a lot of people who feel this way. I certainly wish the rape aspect could be done away with. What if my husband were murdered and there was enough evidence to convict me though I were innocent? I don't know how often women are sexually abused in prison, but if I were male I would certainly be afraid of what was in store for me.
I am thinking right now about Heinlien's philosophies on punishment found in "Starship Troopers". I don't think it would work nearly as splendidly as he did, but I do think that our current system leaves something to be desired. After all, as a parent, I have a whole range of ways which I can discipline my children. One thing may be unpleasant for one but pleasant for another.
Example: Three siblings who are friends of ours. The oldest: requiring a dime out of her pennybank when she broke a rule was the most painful thing in the world for her. She was highly motivated to keep this horrible thing from happening. The second child: "You mean if I give you this dime I can hit my brother? Cool!" Third child: If you looked at him funny, he would run away to his room in a fit of tears. He did anything he could to try and please.
Each person is different. If someone appears to not mind repeat-visits to jail, something else should be an option. Just my opinion.
Edit: For example, I would be for castrating repeat rapists and other sexual abusers if I thought it would help them stop or convince others to stop. I have been told, however, that in many cases this would not stop them at all.
quote:No, I'm saying that the causation is already discussed at length by the medical field, and the only statements disputing that in this thread are anecdotal.
Sorry I didn't see your response until just now Justa--life intervened.
In any case, that is a much more reasonable argument to make than the one I thought you were making! Glad to hear that I'd just read you wrong.
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