On the other hand, I happen to live in a rural area that *doesn't* have farms, yet the local salt of the earth still hasn't caught up to the concept of keeping their animals in the yard or spaying and neutering them.
So, I'm glad you're advocating spaying and neutering, and everyone trying to see things from the other person's point of view. It just sounded kind of like you were also implying that cultural differences meant that people from other 'cultures' couldn't have a point of view on those other cultures. Or something.
Sorry I was mean, but this is a really sore point for me.
p.s. I saw the same,if not more, from the idiot college students in Gainesville, who would abandon their animals at the end of their college lives when they moved. So, don't think I'm saying that only rednecks do this.
posted
On our farm in Iowa the cat population fluctuated from three to thirty, three times. Feline illness, an attempt to tame a coyote and an outside tom cat all resulted in notable losses. Such is the life of cats. However we never spayed or declawed cats. I think my dad felt that they were equals, and would not disarm or otherwise remove their rights as free people.
quote: I think my dad felt that they were equals, and would not disarm or otherwise remove their rights as free people.
It's an approach that makes sense to me only if one is willing to be consistent -- e.g., with other medical care, which can be quite expensive. Otherwise, it feels to me (IMO, and not to dis your Dad, just speaking generally) like a convenient rationalization, or possibly just a not-very-well-thought-out line of reasoning. Treating someone else like an equal entails a substantial commitment, when you think about it.
But it is attractive in a free spirit kinda way.
[ December 30, 2004, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
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In the stated example they have a job. Rodent control. What they need is to form a union and negotiate a better benefits package. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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My tomcat would occasionally bring in dead mice and birds as rent payments. He would sit with them outside the door and meow hopefully. If you let him in, he'd deposit them on the kitchen floor with a smug look.
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That's not rent, that's a gift of purest love. Well, if they were ALIVE it would be purest love. But even dead ones denote a powerful affection. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:"This is my cat, Samuel Gompers. Mind the picket line."
I love that. I may have to name my next cat Samuel Gompers.
Back in the pre-Photoshop days I put together (the old fashioned way, with scissors, gluestick, and a photocopier) some fairly compelling evidence that Samuel Gompers was, in fact, a brownie. He had the hat from the 1st Edition AD&D Monster Manual's brownie and everything!
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Me too. Last night the cat who adopted me as her person was sitting on my lap purring quietly as I was reading this thread.
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This reminds of what happened at a fire station where my husband used to work. ONe of the firemen raised chickens and brought some eggs of some kind of fighting chicken and it hatched. So, the chickens lived at the fire station, it was funny, they even had a newspaper story about it and people would come and want to visit the wild chickens that lived behind the fire station.
Well, that station was next to the police departments' stable, and the chickens began terrorizing the police barn cats. So we had fire department chickens chasing the police cats.
Sadly, the chickens didn't survive more than a couple years, they were picked off by falcons and had trouble surviving the winters. The cats are still there, though. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Holy crap. I have to post this before I'm even done reading the thread, because I'm extremely offended that some people think I'm going to be running a "kitty butcher shop."
We would not be having litters just because we like to see kittens get eaten by wild animals. To suggest so is, quite frankly, ridiculous.
I asked a simple question. I know Hatrack can be crazy sometimes, but I didn't expect to practically get accused of abusing animals because I choose to have outside pets.
posted
I took it in the spirit intended. My first answer was short because I'm posting from work, not because of any indignation.
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Nah, I know you guys weren't. It was Zeugma's "butcher shop" comment that made my jaw actually drop, is all.
space opera
edit: I should probably add that this morning before I came to the forum I told hubby we should go ahead and make the vet appts. to alter both cats. I truly do hope that no one thinks that I was going to deliberately create a "feral" cat population. As a matter of fact, Mr. Opera spent last night building an insulated cat house for them. It's a A-frame that matches our own house.
[ December 30, 2004, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Space Opera ]
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Space Opera, I'm really sorry that I've offended you, because I really respect and like you as a person. However, I have to admit that this line from your original post really upset me:
quote:Mr. Opera had outdoor cats growing up, and he said that usually the population takes care of itself. Some cats disappear, some get taken by animals, etc.
And the line about not caring how many litters they had... I'll admit that my comment was pretty hyperbolic, but this to me is exactly what it means to create a feral cat population.
But yes, I'm sorry to have offended you. I've been called a monster by defenders of animals here, myself, and I know it hurts.
I still, however, think that leaving them intact and loose in the yard is inhumane.
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quote: I asked a simple question. I know Hatrack can be crazy sometimes, but I didn't expect to practically get accused of abusing animals because I choose to have outside pets.
Welcome to the wildest place on earth, the animal kingdom....
I'd like to apologize for some of my responses to you Zeugma, I was tired and felt attacked, I'm sorry to have implied that you baby your pets too much. Annie hit the nail right on the head on why we disagree so strongly on this matter.
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This is why I love this site. People can get into heated debates, and then at the end, they can apologize for any misunderstandings or offenses taken and move on with their friendships.
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It's okay, Zeugma. I think you misread some of what I meant in my original post. When I said we didn't care how many litters we had, that meant that we love animals and would be responsible for however many we ended up with if we chose not to spay/neuter. As for the comment about Mr. Opera's childhood cat population, I was just repeating what he said - I didn't say whether I approved or disapproved. That was just how he answered my question of how one didn't end up with 150 cats. Again, all of it was put out there so that I could get some opinions.
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I;m glad you're getting the critters fixed, Space Opera. You'll also have less cat fight activity as a result.
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My 6-year-old is struggling with these issues right now. She has been promised a cat this summer, and she wants very much to be a responsible pet owner. She has already taken over the feeding and cleaning litter boxes for the two cats we already have.
She's considering keeping her kitten an indoor pet, since there are farm dogs and coyotes rampant in our future neighborhood. However, she wants kittens in her life. She is conflicted about spaying and whether or not to let her kitten outside.
I've never known a small child to take pet ownership so seriously!
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But this is good, isn't it? She's aware, she's thoughtful and considerate, she's weighing the options. Sounds like you've done an awesome job teaching her about resonsibility. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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My aunt and her family are cat lovers! At one point they had so many that they lost count. None of the cats were fixed and none had their shots (that I know of). Anyway one of the cats (they never figured out which one) infected my aunt and cousin with cat scratch fever (yes, it is a real disease, not just a Ted Nugent song). It was very painful. The site of the infection got pussy and hard and crusty. They would have to take pain killers so that everyday my uncle could take a needle and poke the crusted puss to drain it. (I did not witness any of this but my cousin did share all the ucky, painful details).
The point of this really gross post is just to be careful, definitely get the shots. And I also strongly encourage spaying/nuetering. There are enough homeless kitties in the world. Posts: 295 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Just as a clarification: cat scratch disease is contracted from Bartonella bacteria, and it is usually spread to humans through a scratch from the claw or tooth of a kitten younger than six months old. It can be caught from an adult cat, but this is more rare.
IIRC, there are no routine cat vaccinations that protect against Bartonella. Almost half of the cats surveyed in California were carriers. However, flea shots will help protect a cat from one of the primary modes of transmission between cats.
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Feral cats can be dangerous. A big tom from a family that let their cats go feral came into my aunt's rural house once. She attempted to shoo it out with a broom, thinking it would spook. Instead, it jumped and attacked her.
It didn't have rabies, but her scratches and bites were so infected she almost had to go into the hospital.
Didn't catch Sara's last reply, but I guess this is anectdotal evidence of what she said.
posted
I wonder if she accidentally got it backed into a corner or something. I've never ever known a cat to attack a human in anything but perceived self-defense. Even the meanest roughest toms I've ever known. Also any provoked cat bite is not grounds for worry about rabies (just in case you were concerned). My vet said that only if the cat came out of nowhere and attacked you with no provocation at all should you be worried about the possibility of rabies.
There used to be a tom who hung around the apartments where I once lived, and he would be all beat up and infected a lot, as toms usually are from their many battles. Once his eye was all swollen and my vet gave me some strong antibiotic pills and said I could see if I could get some of those down him when he would let me. I got bitten while putting one down his throat, but he said it's not a worry since it was provoked.
Oh but for sure always scrub thoroughly any cat bite or scratch and put antibiotic ointment on. They do have bacteria on their claws and in their mouths. I have been bitten and scratched many times over the years, usually while administering medicine, but also sometimes from playfulness, and I've never had any problems with infections.
Once I did get ringworm from one of my cats. That was icky. <laughs> The normal way that's diagnosed, though, is from a pink ring on the human's skin. It's almost symptomless in the cat itself.
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Space Opera, I'm really glad you have decided on altering your new kitties. One of my cat rules is to have spayed or neutered any cat I can catch.
In the 15 years I've lived here on our farm, we have always had 2 cats that spent most of their time indoors but could go out if they wanted to, and one or 2 barn cats. All of our cats have been voluntary residents that just wandered in from somewhere else. If any of them had ever had a litter of kittens, we would have had them spayed and neutered, too. I would never pay money to buy a cat. This just encourages people to breed them for sale, and there are plenty of other places to get cats that need homes. (Like your neighbor's garage )
Down the road about a mile is a dairy farm that has about 100 identical tabby cats. I'd hate to live any closer to him than I do. But his cats seem well fed and in good health. I'm pretty sure he feed them real cat food and vaccinates.
Another dairy farmer has about 30 cats. All he feeds them is fresh cow milk. A lot of them have abcesses, missing limbs or eyes, or are crippled. There's always smashed ones in the road or driveway.
Around our farms are groups of homes having about 5-20 acre lots. People from town dump cats all the time there. If they are not caught and spayed or neutered, the resulting herd can become quite expensive to feed. Then the catless neighbors who wish to remain catless get annoyed. They get traps from the humane society and take the cats there. If the cat is not tame or friendly, it is not adoptable.
We also have many pairs of hawks nesting here, so little animals don't last long.
So it isn't fair to the cats or the neighbors not to alter the outdoor cats.
I would also never declaw a cat. For strictly indoor cats, they have little fake fingernail caps for them now, and having a proper manicure regularly will prevent them from damaging furniture. Any cat that is allowed outdoors should have claws. I regularly clip and file round the ones on my indoor cats to prevent injury when we play rough. We keep a comforter draped over any furniture that we want to keep nice.
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I came into this thread late and didnt get a chance to respond before most of my response was already voiced. However, I will say that I am appalled by some people's opinions that it is acceptable to allow domesticated cats to roam free, population unchecked. Cats, feral or not, are NOT native wild animals. It's a disruption, however slight, to nature and the ecosystem to allow a group of feral cats to "coexist" with other wild animals on a farm. Cats do wander, and for all you know, the cats that disappear could merely have migrated and reproduced in another area, thus spreading and increasing the problem. I fully support the use of barn cats to control the population of mice and other rodents, provided these animals are vaccinated, well-fed and sheltered, and neutered. If you need a new kitten, go the the humane society and adopt a whole litter. A lot of animal rescue societies provide discounted or even free spay/neuter services for the animals, along with a (usually) minimal adoption fee. Even if these animals are mostly feral and do not have a lot of human contact, if they are there by your decision, then they are your responsibility, and part of that responsibility is to not become a part of an ever-growing unwanted cat population.
Ok, so that was longer a post than I intended. But yeah. That's my input.
Posts: 1225 | Registered: Feb 2002
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We caught him at my grandmother's house. He was probably four monthes old and fierce. We had to keep him wrapped in a blanket to transport him home.
Once we got home, we kept him in the house for several weeks. It took most of that time to get him to come out from under the furniture without a struggle.
Once he had adopted us, we let him outside. One of my favorite memories is of him, as a six mos old, proudly pesenting a dead gopher to me. The gopher was only a little smaller than him and he had to crane his neck way up in the air to drag his big trophy. He never really got along with the other cats, but he was always a great hunter and one of the most loyal pets I've ever had.
Our cats weren't spayed or neutered. We lived in a very rural area that was plagued with rats, mice, blue jays and gophers.
Because most of the cats were littermates there was alot of inbreeding. Inveritably, my brothers and I got most attached to the kittens that needed the most help and had the least hope of survival. It was heartbreaking. I also remember walking out in the morning and seeing multiple cats dead in the yard from, I assume, FIV. Out of self defense, we learned to not get attached to our cats.
I wasn't of an age to make the decision about vet care with our animals when I was a child, but I have spayed/neutered every cat I've owned as an adult.
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Our cats are inside/outside cats, which means we let them go in and out as they please. This keeps them trim and healthy. They don't have to suffer the worst of the weather, they use real trees as scratching posts, they often do their business outside, and they get plenty of exercise. They also have regular meals and plenty of affection.
My husband's family has always had a colony of barn cats. Sometimes they will take one or two into the house as pets. They don't treat the outside kitties, but they do shelter and feed them. If the population grows too large, they cull the kittens. It may sound harsh, but do realize that barn cats are animals that are adapted to the lives they lead. The ones that are not well-adapted die. It's the same for any animal population.
We humans have already disrupted the environment so much, selecting for the proliferation of sparrows and vultures over songbirds and eagles. Our roads and cities that ALL of us are part of see to that.
It is something to be considered, whether or not to allow a colony of cats to call your land home. However, it is no more or less important to consider how you dispose of your trash and whether or not you mow your yard. You are going to influence your environment drastically, just by being human. We are Changers. And the choices you make are up to you.
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