posted
That was not at all clear (to me, and judging by other posts, to some others) from you initial post.
Might I recommend some qualifiers and/or a more detailed explanation (as in your most recent post) the next time you post something like that? Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I, on the other hand, will stick by his statement even if I didn't say it. Most of what has been said about this film in regard to anti-semetism is subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) anti-Christian fever pitch. Those who are Christian who have also talked about the anti-semetism are considered minimal Christians in their beliefs.
Regardless of what some people have said about talking about the anti-semitism cooled things off; my own impression from Christians is that it made relations worse. In the short term it might have helped. In the long term, however, Jews made a lot of simmering enemies in people who otherwise would not have even considered one way or the other.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Jews made enemies? You're really naive to believe that Jews don't have enemies. The trick is to find them and distinguish between those who have evil intended and who are just ignorant of what they do. Why is it difficult to believe that a film depicting Jews calling for the death of Jesus, which supposedly had its most blatant scenes removed, which was made by a director who opposes Vatican II and whose parents are openly anti-Semitic is itself anti-Semitic in nature? Clearly the film was capable of rousing anti-Semitic sentiment in its uneducated audience members, the question then becomes did Gibson want that to happen or was he just not thinking with common sense.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:The trick is to find them and distinguish between those who have evil intended and who are just ignorant of what they do.
These are not the only two possible categories for someone accused of anti-semitism, nfl.
quote:You're really naive to believe that Jews don't have enemies.
In a similar vein, it's really naive to assume that some of the criticism wasn't the result of anti-Christian bigotry, just as it would be naive to assume that some people who saw the film didn't use it as an excuse to inflame existing anti-semitism.
posted
Yes, some of the criticism was anti-semitism bigotry. However, the initial concerns were based off of the fact this same story, presented in dramatic fashion, has been deliberately used over a period of hundreds of years, for the specific purpose of inciting believers to kill jews.
[ February 22, 2005, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: Paul Goldner ]
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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Dag, I didn't say of those "accussed," I was referring to those who actually mean harm to Jews.
Since I was the one who first mentioned the possibility of the The Passion being anti-Semitic, I took it as a direct attack on me, that I was being an anti-Christian bigot.
I do think its pretty clear that liberal segments of the media are willing to denounce anything with Christian themes. My father and I were almost berated by family members over Thanksgiving when he told them we watched it out of curiousity and a desire to actually know for ourselves if there were anti-Semitic themes. However, its equally as bigoted to assume that those who find issue with a Christian film as it is to assume a film is anti-Semitic without having first hand knowledge of it.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I didn't say the Jews didn't have enemies, but I know that the stink so many made did make them new ones. I just don't think you understand how calling this film anti-semitic is the same as attacking the New Testament. That is how many Christians saw it, as a very specific Christian Scriptural passage was excised and condemned.
The Passion, regardless of the movie, is about the Christian Faith's basic message. You might as well call the New Testament hate literature; and there are those who have.
Basically, you would have to prove that your argument against the movie didn't involve the same arguments you could make against the New Testament. If you cannot seperate the two, than you are anti-Christian as you would have to say that the reason for the N.T. is anti-semitism.
posted
Anyone who could have been "made" an enemy of Jews by people condemning The Passion for anti-Semitism deserved my condemnation before the movie was made.
If the NT says Jews, not a mob or some Jews, are responsible for the death of Jesus then I'm perfectly willing to claim that the NT is anti-Semitic. At least from the Catholic perspective, Vatican II seemed indicate that the Jews are not to be blamed as a group, unless of course you're of the Gibson clan, then you don't care what Vatican II says.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:If the NT says Jews, not a mob or some Jews, are responsible for the death of Jesus then I'm perfectly willing to claim that the NT is anti-Semitic.
I take it you have never read the New Testament then. I know that those who are looking for a more "historical" perspective try to "cover up" the more anti-Jewish sentements. However, a clear reading indicates that Jews are not seen in the best of light. Perhaps not to the degree that some honestly anti-semetic people would claim, but just as much as Mel Gibsons movie proclaims from what I understand of it.
By the way, the Torah is pretty equally anti-semitic, as well as anti-Gentile. Have you read the things G-d said He would do to Israel?
posted
"The Passion, regardless of the movie, is about the Christian Faith's basic message. You might as well call the New Testament hate literature; and there are those who have."
From a Jew's perspective, The PAssion is about getting catholics angry enough to kill Jews. Because Passion plays utilize the central theme of Catholicism in order to incite such violence, it makes it very easy to dismiss criticism of passion plays as "anti-christian bigotry." Based on the historical context of passion plays, one could very easily say the onus is on anyone making a passion play to show that they are NOT intending to incite violence.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
No I haven't read the NT, but I have seen The Passion so I'm judging the latter, but not the former. I stand by comments, any portions that blame Jews as a group for killing Jesus are anti-Semitic in my opinion. I've already given you "loopholes" out of that judgement, but you seem to be insisting that despite Vatican II, Jews are to blame for Jesus's death.
quote: By the way, the Torah is pretty equally anti-semitic, as well as anti-Gentile. Have you read the things G-d said He would do to Israel?
First, its the Bible, the Torah is one of only three parts. Since for you the Bible includes the New Testament as well, you can refer to it as the Jewish Bible or the Tanach. Second, that statement pretty much destroyed any credibility you had in this discussion.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Didn't know I had any credability with you on this discussion.
For me, you not reading the NT showed a lack of credability on this subject. After all, how can you compare Gibson's version of things compared to other Christians if you aren't familiar with the source for information on the Passion to start with.
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I'm not criticizing the source or the interpretation except with how the latter conflicts with current Catholic doctrine. Since I saw the movie I feel prefectly capable of voicing criticism of its intentions considering its author and the history of anti-Semitism.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Since I saw the movie I feel prefectly capable of voicing criticism of its intentions considering its author and the history of anti-Semitism.
And I am saying that you can't single out Mel Gibson without comparing his interpretations with what Christians consider Scripture. He is not alone in his views of the film as representing Christianity if the number of devotees is any indication. And you're not just dealing with Catholics, but a sizable portion of Protestants; and even a few Mormons (although many of them are critical of the violence rather than the anti-semitic possibilities).
quote: I just don't think you understand how calling this film anti-semitic is the same as attacking the New Testament.
Um, I guess I don't understand either.
Seriously, Passion really isn't equivalent to scripture. We've adressed before how Gibson added folklore to the biblical account, as well as his own beliefs on the subject. It's a commentary on the NT more than a recreation. A very good commentary, in my opinion, but a commentary nonetheless.
It's not one of those cases where you're bible homework is due and you haven't read the material so you rent the movie. Honest.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I can single out Mel Gibson when his parents are openly anti-Semitic and he denounces his church's doctrine which condemned anti-Semitism. How many times do I need to say "Vatican II?"
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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What you don't get is that many Christians don't see the difference as far as they are concerned. You AREN'T DEALING WITH JUST MEL GIBSON, no matter how much you're argument might be aimed at him in particular.
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nfl, I'm not entirely convinced that rejecting Vatican II is directly related to being an anti-semite.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Questions that should be asked. Forget about Mel Gibson's motive and past for a moment. Is Mel Gibson's film The Passion anti-semitic?
Is The Passion Scripturally accurate?
Does those who support the movie, and its a vast number of the viewers, see a difference between the N.T. and the Passion Film?
And, just for Nlogics sake, are the vast number of supporters Catholic (and the Vatican II comes into this), or Protestant (where they could care less what the Vatican says)?
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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what I am saying is that a vast number of Christians (of ANY Sect) see The Passion movie as almost completely linked to their beliefs as they interpret from the N.T. events they hold Sacred. Thus, any attack on The Passion movie for them (and its a vast number of MANY sects of Christianity) is seen as an attack on their sacred beliefs and thus anti-Christian.
You might call that silly. You may say that is nonsense. However, it IS how the Passion is viewed by a large number who watched the film. It is a devotional film and statement of Faith, and not just entertainment or "based on a book by the best selling author" variety.
I am not saying that being against The Passion is in itself anti-semitic. What I AM saying is that by going against The Passion as vehemently as some did for its supposed anti-semitism, looked like a direct attack on Christian Faith.
posted
Though I think it is a devotional film and statement of faith, I think it is presumtuous and wrong to equate it with scripture. Mel Gibson is no apostle, and I don't think he tried to set himself up as one. I haven't encountered anyone yet who makes a 100% connection between the New Testament and the movie, but if I do I'll be sure to attempt to correct them. Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote: nfl, I'm not entirely convinced that rejecting Vatican II is directly related to being an anti-semite.
Maybe not, but there's certainly a pattern and since this isn't a criminal matter I don't feel the need to justify myself beyond a reasonable doubt. Considering his positions and actions I am very doubtful about whether or not Gibson hold anti-Semitic sentiments.
quote: Forget about Mel Gibson's motive and past for a moment. Is Mel Gibson's film The Passion anti-semitic?
How can you say forget his motive and past? That's like judging a potentially racist book and ignoring that the author is a member of the KKK.
So, yes, by intent or accident The Passion is anti-Semitic for implying that the blame for Jesus's death lays at the feet of the Jews who were not Jesus's followers.
quote: And, just for Nlogics sake, are the vast number of supporters Catholic (and the Vatican II comes into this), or Protestant (where they could care less what the Vatican says)?
This only matters when judging Gibson, and he is a Catholic. Since he rejects the idea that anti-Semitism should be rejected, I'm tempted to believe that he himself is anti-Semitic.
quote: Thus, any attack on The Passion movie for them (and its a vast number of MANY sects of Christianity) is seen as an attack on their sacred beliefs and thus anti-Christian.
Thus, they are being as bigoted as anyone who attacks The Passion for being anti-Semitic under false pretenses.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Then we are arguing two different things. You are arguing that Mel Gibson is anti-semitic and therefore The Passion is. I am arguing if making the anti-semitic claims about the movie did more harm than good for Jewish/Christian relations.
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