posted
I'm at work, so I haven't read all of the posts yet, but I'm working my way through the thread.
quote:No religious experience, no sense of love or belonging. It was just a bunch of nice stories to me, but adding God to my life was simply a complication that I didn't need.
That was how I felt about it, too. I went to church with my parents as a child, and even spent a week at Vacation Bible School learning all about Jesus. In junior high we were asked to write a page or so about our religious beliefs and at that stage I wrote that I believed in god but also in free will, with the caveat that god might occasionally intervene and stipulate that event X was going to happen to person Y at time Z. It wasn't long after that that I found myself wondering why I had written that I believed in god.
One of my best friends at the time was a Young Earth Creationist, and since we were both excused from math we had plenty of time to talk about god, religion, and science. His talk of seeking guidance through prayer and so on left me utterly cold; I had never experienced any sort of external presence, I thought that people never really interacted with god, they just all faked it like I did. That was when I realized I didn't even know if god existed at all, or if all of that stuff in the Bible was literally true or just a bunch of meaningless drivel.
So I set out to learn as much about religion and philosophy as I could to see if I could find something that said to me "this is what you've always believed, you just didn't know it." Nothing did. These investigations took several years, through high school and right up through to my last year of university. I meditated and prayed. I studied karate, which on the face of it may seem unrelated, but for me it was very much related because it brought me closer to understanding the meditative aspects of Zen Buddhism, which is what I'd convert to if I was to undergo a religious conversion. However, like every other religion, Buddhism requires you to start with a leap of faith that I am unwilling to make.
As an agnostic I always said that if I had a personal spiritual experience that led me to god then I would become a believer. The years went by and despite my efforts nothing happened. My atheist friends (this means you, BtL ) told me to take a stand, and my religious friends (very few in number) warned me that I was on my way to hell (though always politely, never fire-and-brimstone). I always responded that my own soul, if such a thing even existed, was my own business.
A number of factors contributed to me changing my self-identifying label from "agnostic" to "atheist:"
The incessant condescention, both implicit and overt, expressed toward me by religious people (friends, family, and religious groups on my campus) became tiresome. When my own mother told me that my father's example had made me into a heathen, and that she wished I'd had more exposure to religion as a child, I was livid. The implication that I couldn't possibly have decided such a thing for myself, that it had to be my father's nefarious, fatalistic-yet-atheistic influence that pushed me away from god, was quite possibly the gravest insult she could have dealt me. I love my mother dearly, and I know she didn't actually mean it (she was upset, and when she's upset she tends to say things that are irrational, untrue, and that she doesn't actually mean) but even so I'm not sure I'll ever forgive her for it.
As long as I'm being brutally honest, the Palestinian issue is another massive stumbling block for me. I can't accept the truth of Christianity and Judaism because the Old Testament says what it does. And yes, I'm willing to appoint myself as moral judge -- if not me, then who else? If I convert to a religion that does not fulfil me morally, the conversion is meaningless. I discussed the issue with my Young Earth Creationist friend once, and the minute he brought up the fact that Israel is, in "fact," promised to the Jews, I resolved to never discuss the issue with him again. God is not a real estate agent. If god exists, what he has done to my mother's people by divine decree is beyond unforgivable. Call me shortsighted if you must, but I have seen their suffering firsthand.
Homosexuality is similar, though sort of tangential for me because I'm not gay. The gay marriage debate, quite honestly, sickens me because I believe there shouldn't even BE a debate, and I believe it on such a fundamental level that I have a visceral reaction every time I'm reminded that there are people who don't share my "none of my business" view on the matter.
I got tired of looking. I realized that I am perfectly capable of living a happy and fulfilling life regardless of whether or not there is a god, so I decided to set about living the aforementioned happy life and stop worrying about whether or not god existed. That was the biggest one.
posted
I have no desire to so publicly define myself as answering the questions in this thread would do. I do want to comment on a comment JNSB made on the other thread.
quote:lack of faith is seen as a negative
I do not feel that I am lacking faith. I have no faith, but I don't view it as a deficiency. Any more than I view my lack of cancer as a deficiency. That isn't meant to be a direct comparison, simply an illustration of the structure of the phrase. I also suffer from a lack of Lexus.
This may be splitting a fine hair, and maybe other people feel that faith is something they are missing. Perhaps phrasing the concept differently would remove some of the negative connotation?
Posts: 98 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I can see your point, C-E M, but I dislike the association of "athiest" with "lack of faith" for a different reason.
I have faith. I have faith in the human species. I have faith that most people are generally good. I have faith that we can overcome our problems as a society and that we are not doomed to utter self-destruction. And I feel that this truely is FAITH, just like religious faith, because it gives me the strength to go through the tough times, and motivates me to be one of the creators rather than one of the destroyers. It spurs my desire to be a giver and producer in counter-balance to being a consumer rather than simply "getting mine" and letting it go at that.
NOTE: This is not to be confused with agreement that "atheism" is a religion. I do not believe it is, but that is another debate.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've heard several people on Hatrack say that it bothers them that any term referring to atheists and agnostics seems negative. But I haven't seen many, if any, recommendations on a "PC" way to refer to these things.
There are those who prefer the term "childfree" rather than "childless". Would you prefer "faithfree"? Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'd argue that atheists do have faith--they have faith in the nonexistence of God. There's no reliable evidence that there's no God, so believing adamantly that it is true requires faith.
But I suppose that's missing the point.
As an agnostic, I truly have a lack of faith, or at least I try to. I'm not offended by the phrase. I don't see the lack of faith as a negative thing, and since it really does apply to me, I don't see what's so offensive about someone simply saying it about me.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Beverly, see my post regarding faith. I believe that I have faith, therefore "lacking faith" and "faithfree" are both false labels.
Verily the Younger, I do not believe that I have faith in "no god". I do lack faith that there is a god, but that is not the same thing. I live my life without being strongly motivated by either presumption. I would argue that a sociopath has "faith" that there is no god. Someone with actual faith that god doesn't exist would use that tenet to decide their daily actions, just as someone who actually has faith in God would be expected to.
If someone says they believe in God, but they make none of their life decisions based on that belief, we say their faith is weak or that they really don't have faith in God. If someone makes daily decisions on the belief that there is a God and they try to reconcile their actions with this belief, we say they have faith. Likewise, if I had faith in "no god" I'd make my decisions by saying, "I need to do A or B, but since there is no God I'll choose B." I don't live this way and I doubt many others posting on the athiest thread do either. To me and many others whether there is some kind of "god" or not is largely irrelevant to our everyday lives. I don't think that can be called "faith" without destroying the meaning of the word.
[edit to add "the Younger" when addressing "Verily" otherwise I sound like I'm waxing Biblic. ]
posted
KarlEd, I very much agree with you. Faith is a part of everyday life. Everyone has faith in a variety of things. If a human had no faith whatsoever, they would probably be institutionalized because they would be insane. We cannot function without faith. So, I guess when we discuss "lack of faith" it is a shortened form of "lack of faith in God" which is, well, wordy.
Verily, I am glad that you do not think of it as a negative. When I use the terms "nonbeliever" or "lack of faith", I am not thinking anything negative, I am just trying my best to describe and categorize. I am hesitant about using "agnostic" and "atheist" because I have my own ideas about what those words mean, and people tend to get touchy about which one I use to describe them. "Nonbeliever" seems... safer.
Edit: And I agree with Verily about the term "childfree" which is why I used the " ". I find that when people are upset with one term being negative, they often choose a word that is just as biased in the other direction. It doesn't seem right to require another to use a word that uses a bias that runs contrary to their values.
posted
Even though i'm trying to cut down a little, then, I'll give this a spin:
why we never believed in a higher power or powers.
I was raised faith-free in a mostly (but certainly not entirely) Jewish neighborhood on Long Island. I don't recall that I came across anyone particularly "devout" until High School (or, at a minimum, I wasn't aware of it), and even then, they weren't that devout.
My father came from a mixed Christian background, but is himself an atheist. Not as outspoken as I am, but still. My mother was reformed Jewish (you're right TD, I have found that being a reformed Jew is as close as you can come to not really having to believe in God, and still be welcomed at temple), but also atheist. And I say "atheist" instead of "agnostic" becasue they were pretty sure of their beliefs. It wasn't a matter of not really being sure about it. They knew. But they didn't push it (I, of course, do).
So, I was never trained to or asked to believe in a higher power. I've given it a great deal of thought ever since (too much, perhaps, though I read about the knowledge-base some of the people here have, and I think, "maybe not enough, after all"), and continue in my atheistic beliefs.
if we once believed in a higher power or powers, why we stopped.
=na()
from what source(s) does our morality spring?
How will my actions benefit myself, my family, and my society (in varying order of importance, but, overall, still trying to "first, do no harm")
Followed by an ever weakinging sense of "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." Weakening, as it's now slowly changing into "do unto others as others have done unto you." But I must admit, I'm still too much of a bleeding-heart liberal to really want to screw over (most) people.
confrontations with people of a religious faith.
This one, I'll have to get back to.
if we feel alone without a higher power or powers to guide us.
You know, the existence of a real, ever-lovin' God would be really nice. It would be great to see my mother again, and to know that I could be with my family--all of them--forever. But, unfortunately, wishing won't make it so.
I feel as alone without a higher power as I feel broke without a $2 billion bank account.
And how would I be guided by something that doesn't exist? And by something that makes no sense, or something that's defined in so many contradictory ways that I can chose any path I want and find a means to justify it? I'd like to have Donald Trump and the Dali Lama as my mentors, but other than that, I'll have to do what I can.
I'll be leaving the other questions for later. I must get back to work.
--Steve
confrontations with people of a religious faith. how we deal with death. how we feel about religion.
posted
* Why we never believed in a higher power or powers. I'll rephrase this: Why we once did. Very simple, mom and dad said it was true, other grownups backed it up, and like the Santa myth, it wasn't ever something I questioned (until fifth grade.)
*If we once believed in a higher power or powers, why we stopped. I stopped believing in God when I was ten. It was the beginning of fifth grade, and we were studying ancient American cultures to begin American History. One of our vocab words was "Origin Stories." I think we read one of them. The definition was a story people made up to explain how the world came to be. Anyway, my teacher suggested the whole seven days/garden of Eden story was a origin story too. I don't think he realized how much the power of that suggestion changed my life, or even that anyone would take it as an affront to their own relgion.. I never thought to question any of the stories that they told in CCD at all. I never considered how much I respected the Catholic Church as an institution at all, but when I was younger, I did imagine that God and my grandfather had nothing better to do in heaven than to watch me grow and learn. When I did think, the whole Adam and Eve thing seemed just as hollow and fake as the giant turtle carrying everything on its back. God must have been just another thing people made up, but nobody knew it but me. I didn't know there were other "atheists," or that there were other people who didn't believe in God. I felt completely alone. Around the same time I started to have trouble sleeping at night, guilty over all the bad things I'd done and lied about over the past few years- taking a "maid sign" from a hotel, playing with the neighbors in their washing machine, making stuffed animals do dirty things at recess, succumbing to my sister's prying and revealling her birthday present. I was really depressed and cried quite about. The no God thing wasn't helping. I stopped singing in church, because there was no point if it wasn't real. I know the feelings lasted until well into December, because I have strong memories of feeling sad like that when I was riding home with my family from visiting friends to exchange gifts. I was sitting in the very back of the van, and I remember listening to the billboard tape we had, with little drummer boy, wondering if Christmas was for me. I eventually found solace in books. The Animorphs series, actually. I had been getting them in the book order. If I read them and reread them at night, I wouldn't feel so lonely, and upset. I became obsessed with the series and ended up secretly reading them at night for a couple years. What the books did was kept me distracted at night. Even though the obsession was a little bit unhealthy, if I didn't hate myself while lying in bed, I could begin to live my life again. And I did. So what about the whole God thing? After a year, I began to sing in church again- believing what you sang wasn't a prerequisite for singing. I was also learning to follow music playing the durms, and liked to look at the more complicated rythmns that made up the church songs. I wasn't allowed to quit CCD, so I couldn't be a brat about that. Since I didn't want anyone to know that God wasn't really real, I pretended like I believed all the CCD stuff. I knew that surving CCD meant playing along. Sulking for two hours wasn't going to get me through anything, and so like one of the above posters, I learned more of the stories than many of the believers. I think after the initial shock I didn't dwell on my beliefs too much over the years. Even so, I won't "come back" to religion. I've been an outside observer of religion enough that I would never immerse myself in my relgion. Unless God himself comes and yells at me, which won't happen anyway, seeing as he doesn't exist. In the end I had worked out why I didn't believe in God, but my thinking refined itself to this: God didn't create man. Man created God.
* From what source(s) does our morality spring?* Morality springs from the self, and what you want in the world. You are your own watchdog. Period. I said before I think Man created God. Why? Because man needed a mechanism to get other people to behave. Think about it. God is this all-knowing being, knows what you do, what you think and say, even when you are alone. If a tree falls in the forest, God will hear the noise. You screw up, you don't go to heaven. As a result people may behave when no one is there, not because God sees them as bad, but because God will see them as good. For shallow people with no good excuse or personal marker on how to "behave," this helps. For moral people who are religious at the same time, God is there, but they don't believe something is wrong just because of the church, but because they agree. A good three-quarters of the time, the church's moral stance is what I would say anyway. But in reality, it's not God who's watching you, it's you. And it always was. But there's one problem: who defines what is good and bad? The ten commandments(not the God parts, the lying and killing is bad stuff), the law of love, and the AA prayer are excellent general guidelines to live your life, and should be adhered to by everyone. Human laws help, although there are some stupid laws, and politicians aren't always the brightest bulbs either. But now the biggest factor I think about my behavior comes down to honor, and reputation. Because you can't get inside other beings' heads, they can sometimes be as real as God. (as a side bar there's a kid's book called the Ashwater Experiment, and it's well worth checking out) In a word, I behave in a way that will continue to create the impression that will allow other people to conceive of me the way I want to be conceived. I behave because I want adults to respect me, and other human beings to like and trust me. People know nothing about me, but I try to live my life in a way that if they did know half of the things I did in my life, they would still like me. (I also think that if people know everything about a person, they get into a knowledge like Ender's and would like me unconditionally, in which case there's a context for my life, and no misunderstanding from any of my actions, good or bad).
* Confrontations with people of a religious faith. Oh boy... I try to avoid confrontations with people, so many people don't know I'm an atheist. It's not something I advertise (I have many religious friends, and I don't want them to drop me because I offend them), but if someone admits that they are not religious, or an atheist, I will confess back (yay for this thread). Realizing God didn't exist was upsetting enough. I don't wish that upon anyone else. We'll start with my mom. She was raised Baptist (the only bible we have in the house is HER Baptist bible), and mom and dad had two priests at their wedding. She converted to Catholicism around the time she was pregnant with my little sister, because she, not my father, was taking us to church and CCD, and felt left out not going to communion. When I eventually told her, she said that everybody questions, and didn’t seem to upset. My dad on the other hand isn’t too happy. He has been a Catholic all his life, but never goes to church unless he has to, citing that his childhood as an alter boy and mom in the choir was quite enough. He wishes that the Mass was in Latin and alter girls be banned. Don’t get him started on Eucharistic ministers. He accuses me of thinking I’m smarter than anyone else not believing in God; he never hears me out. But we don’t talk about it much. Even though I stopped believing in God at ten, I made my confirmation at fifteen. Why? Grandma. My mom insisted I do it so I could be somebody’s Godparent, and because my elderly grandma (who’s older than the pope and lives down the street) would be really upset if I didn’t and knew the truth. Mom really got me to finish CCD with that one. She’s actually so proud of that little punch line of hers that she passed it on to her best friend to use on her daughter who didn’t want to make her confirmation.
* if we feel alone without a higher power or powers to guide us.* No. I live in my head a lot (which I know is bad), so in that sense I am lonely. I guess I was upset and lonely at first, but that was over eight years ago. I accept that there’s no God, so it doesn’t bother me that he isn’t there.
* how we deal with death. Death. I don’t like the idea of death one bit, but I think that finally knowing dead people, attending funerals and growing up has helped me to accept it. I flatly refused to go to a great-aunt’s funeral because I hardly knew her, and knew that I would see death, not a person. When I was 15, my father’s cousin practically dropped dead at age 42 when something in her brain went. The family was shocked, so my “first funeral” was my worst, because it was a very real death, not the “happy” funerals that come with the passing of the elderly. The receiving line for the funerals I’ve always been to stop at the casket where you can pray. When it was my turn to kneel down, instead of praying to God, I thought of the most powerful memories I had with that person. My stood up after just a second or two, but I really thought about what she meant to me and how much it hurt to lose JoAnn. When her mother, my great-aunt died, the funeral didn’t seem so sad. But what struck me most about the funeral was the excellent eulogy done by JoAnn’s husband. He mentioned that Regina was now with JoAnn, and Regina’s husband who had died over thirty years ago. Even though their deaths meant the end of their lives, it meant that they were all together in heaven. I don’t know that they’re really in heaven together, we don’t know death, but I think the idea brought comfort to JoAnn’s husband because the other half of her family could be “with” her. No one likes the idea of death, but it doesn’t bother me like it used to.
* how we feel about religion. I still hold on to the some tenants of Catholicism. When they made me do confession for Conformation, it was comforting: I think the priest has heard it all, and even though I confessed the least personal sins, his sympathy was real. I still have to go to church on holidays. I take communion: it would be weird if I don’t when everyone else does. I even enjoy fighting for the Catholic side against Protestant friends. But I don’t enjoy church itself. Seeing people is nice, so are the post mass donuts, but God isn’t a real part of my life. I think dying for religion has got to be one of the stupidest things out there. Nobody knows the truth, for me, my life philosophy is something I decided on my own. I could be entirely wrong, so why would I start a war for it? I’d much rather agree to disagree with anyone. I’ll either find out God exists when I die, or I won’t know that I’m dead. I might even meet the giant turtle. God and religion are things man made up to understand himself. Religion has gone too far at times, and been totally hypocritical and wrong, yet at the same time it builds a community and becomes a rock in people’s lives. It brings solace to those who have nothing, and while I’m not a part of that, I wouldn’t take it away from such people for anything.
Posts: 1757 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
*if we once believed in a higher power or powers, why we stopped.* I'm an agnostic because I just can't believe an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God would allow such horrible evil and suffering in the world. Perhaps I would feel different if I ever had any luck, but I rarely do.
The good die young. People stab each other in the back for trivial reasons. The rich and powerful get richer and more powerful, and use their wealth and power for obnoxious purposes.
I have read various apologia to explain the evil and imperfections in the world, but they are unconvincing, and irreconcilable with an omnipotent God, to my mind.
God's works in ways mysterious and wondrous to behold. Meh
C.S. Lewis claims it's because the Devil is in charge of Earth now, this is enemy territory. I thought God was all-powerful? [note: I saw this claim on a recent PBS documentary about Lewis--I know it's incomplete]
There are others.
Wow, I was depressed before I started this, now I literally feel physically ill. Too depressed to answer the other questions.
Despite all this, I hold out hope for a loving, all-powerful God, and for a Heaven. I pray, usually for friends' happiness. I don't usually pray for my own or other personal needs, I consider that... weak? selfish? But I don't judge others for praying for themselves, maybe I should do more of that myself.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I also wanted to add that I liked what KarlEd said. Atheists are not "non-believers" they are "non believers in God". The distinction means a lot to me.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
There is no reliable evidence that God does not exist. An atheist simply believes it's true, without evidence. That's not stretching the definition of faith. That's what faith is. Belief without evidence. There's nothing in the definition of faith that says one's behavior must be influenced by it. It is simply a word to describe a belief that something is true in the absence of rational evidence.
How atheists use that in their daily lives is up to them. There are no tenets of atheism. There is no code of behavior that goes with it. There are no blanket statements that can be made about atheists beyond, "they believe that there is no such thing as God". And we only know that's true of all atheists because that's the definition of what an atheist is. Whether an individual atheist uses their belief in the lack of God to influence their behavior is their own affair.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: That's what faith is. Belief without evidence. There's nothing in the definition of faith that says one's behavior must be influenced by it. It is simply a word to describe a belief that something is true in the absence of rational evidence.
Well, that’s one definition of faith. It’s not the one that any theologian I can think of uses, it’s not the one taught in most protestant seminaries, and it’s not particularly biblical. But it is one definition.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote: There are no blanket statements that can be made about atheists beyond, "they believe that there is no such thing as God". And we only know that's true of all atheists because that's the definition of what an atheist is.
And as Dana says, that's only one definition of atheism. Some people are amazed at how many arguments this causes.
quote: One might argue that the term "Jewish" should properly be defined by Jews, and that similarly the term "atheist" should be defined by atheists. So, here are a few quotes from popular atheist books about atheism.
It turns out that the word atheism means much less than I had thought. It is merely the lack of theism [...]
Basic atheism is not a belief. It is the lack of belief. There is a difference between believing there is no god and not believing there is a god--both are atheistic, though popular usage has ignored the latter [...] [Dan Barker, "Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist", p. 99. Freedom From Religion Foundation, 1992.]
The word `atheism', however, has in this contention to be construed unusally. Whereas nowadays the usual meaning of 'atheist' in English is 'someone who asserts there is no such being as God,' I want the word to be understood not positively but negatively. I want the originally Greek prefix 'a' to be read in the same way in 'atheist' as it customarily is read in such other Greco-English words as 'amoral,' 'atypical,' and 'asymmetrical'. In this interpretation an atheist becomes: someone who is simply not a theist. Let us, for future ready reference, introduce the labels 'positive atheist' for the former and 'negative atheist' for the latter. [Antony G.N. Flew, "God, Freedom, and Immortality: A Critical Analysis", p. 14. Prometheus, 1984.
If you look up 'atheism' in the dictionary, you will probably find it defined as the belief that there is no God. Certainly many people understand atheism in this way. Yet many atheists do not, and this is not what the term means if one considers it from the point of view of its Greek roots. In Greek 'a' means 'without' or 'not' and 'theos' means 'god.' From this standpoint an atheist would simply be someone without a belief in God, not necessarily someone who believes that God does not exist. According to its Greek roots, then, atheism is a negative view, characterized by the absence of belief in God. [Michael Martin, "Atheism: A Philosophical Justification", p. 463. Temple University Press, 1990.]
quote: There is no reliable evidence that God does not exist. An atheist simply believes it's true, without evidence.
This is the kind of statement that starts arguments.
King Of Men's thread "Oh the Irony..." might be a better place to voice this, and see where it gets you.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've finally got some time to address these questions with the appropriate consideration.
"why we never believed in a higher power or powers."
I spent much of my adolescence pondering the question of existence. I would lie awake, staring at the stars through my bedroom window, posing questions for which I had no definitive answers. I went to church on my own, mostly varieties of Methodist, since that seems to dominate here in my town. Church and Sunday School quiet honestly bored me. I stuck with it for several years but I was never comfortable with the pat answers I was given so I continued to search. In my mid teens I read several books that spoke to me more than any church service I'd attended. Specifically: Jonathon Livingston Seagull by Richard Bach and Seth Speaks by Jane Roberts. I clung to this reincarnation philosophy for a number of years but I was never what you would call a passionate believer. Even when my passion with this "religion" was new it felt like self-deception.
"if we once believed in a higher power or powers, why we stopped."
As time has gone by I've found that I'm less concerned with the questions that filled my world as a teen. I would love to believe that we are everlasting but I seem unable to make that leap. I've found that cherishing my family and friends by letting them know how special they are to me has become my mantra nowadays.
"from what source(s) does our morality spring?*"
I don't think there is a definitive answer to this that encompasses a single wellspring of morality. Racial prejudice is certainly immoral and I've witnessed enough instances of parents teaching their kids to hate not to give credence to the concept of nurture and I feel blessed that my parents were very conscientious in their efforts to teach me right from wrong. On the other hand I've witnessed children raised in a prejudicial environment rise above the hate taught to them and become loving caring members of the community.
"confrontations with people of a religious faith."
I can remember several instance that bear retelling. There was a group of kids in my high school that were members of a Christian organization called Chi Alpha. They said this translated as Christ First. I was invited to a function at a sponsors home. We viewed a film entitled "The Sound of Thunder" The film depicted what would happen during and following The Rapture. It was quite a gloomy and scary depiction of existence if you failed to make the cut. After the movie there was an open discussion and eventually I was asked for my reaction. I made it plain that I thought the movie was a scare tactic. I also opined that accepting Christ into your life because you were fearful that you would be left behind seemed like a less than honest commitment. I expressed the view that conversion or acceptance of Christ should be motivated by love and devotion. My views were not wholly appreciated. As a matter of fact I was literally being yelled at and accused of being a heathen and or worse, surely destined for the fires of hell.
The other instance that springs to mind was when I had a couple of LDS folks drop by to visit with me. I told them from the start that I was not a likely candidate for conversion but they insisted that they would enjoy sharing their love of God with me and hearing my opinions. After they had shared a bit about Joseph Smith and how he came to be a prophet because he was unhappy with the religious offerings of the times, they inquired as to what I thought about him and his theology. When I replied that we had much in common and that since I had my own peculiar religion that perhaps I was also a prophet, their jaws dropped and the conversation came to a screeching halt. In retrospect I should have respected their beliefs rather than having a bit of sport.
"if we feel alone without a higher power or powers to guide us.*" Not really, no.
"how we deal with death."
I feel grief for losing someone close. I would like to believe there is something more but once again I just can't make that leap. I try to cherish the memory of everyone that has touched my life and is no longer with us.
"how we feel about religion."
While I've never been able to be a believer I find the whole notion of religion fascinating. I love to discuss it with people as long as they don't get defensive or condescending. As I've stated in several threads I believe that religion is a by-product of our inquisitiveness and our search for purpose. I believe that religion can be a positive force. I believe that religion has helped push us to be a more civilized society. On the other hand the ability of religion to motivate large sections of society can also be used as a weapon.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Okay, well, excuse the hell out of me. I thought this was a thread where we could voice our opinions. Apparently holding opinions that others disagree with makes one a "fanatic", so I'll just shut the hell up now.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Verily, if you read the first post of the thread, I think you'll find that opinions were not solicited. That said, I think you were received politely, and contradicted firmly but without hostility. KoM's use of "fanatic" was, while a humorous dig at you, not as mean-spirited as it sounds; it's also a tongue-in-cheek reference to happenings on the Believer thread.
posted
Really, you can voice your opinions on any thread. We just hope you're polite about it. If it only takes someone calling you a "fanatic" (which isn't terribly polite of them in this context)to shut you down, obviously you're not that fanatical.
Edit: I said "can" voice your opinion. Some threads, by format (e.g. the Begging the Question thread) should not have opinions. From the first post, "Specifically, we can discuss, among other things..." which does invite opinion.
Tom and I obviously disagree on what's polite. These are our opinions.
posted
"Then I'd hate to see this place when it gets hostile."
Yeah, you would. It appears you still have not read the Believer thread. Do so; it will help you with context.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I actually intended that as a humorous dig at myself, not Verily, though I see where it was easy to misinterpret. Sorry.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Tom, if you would read the first post, you'd see that opinions were solicted:
quote: I want this thread to be a place for those without a belief in a higher power. This is a thread for the atheists and the agnostics to talk about their lack of religious belief.
Which is exactly what Verily did. So why tell him to go elsewhere, Glenn?? The statement Verily made " There is no reliable evidence that God does not exist. An atheist simply believes it's true, without evidence." is not provocative, not on a thread about atheism and agnosticsim.
Anyway, if this thread followed exactly what the 1st poster wanted without digressing, it would be a first for HR.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't need context. Having one person try to silence me because they don't like my opinions, and two others call me a fanatic, is all the hostility I need. Life is too short to waste on stupid arguments with people who have no regard for me on a message board. I have more meaningful things to do with my time. Like post in the Caps Lock thread.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: There is no reliable evidence that God does not exist. An atheist simply believes it's true, without evidence." is not provocative, not on a thread about atheism and agnosticsim.
And how would it be recieved to tell theists (in a thread for theists) that there is no evidence FOR the existence of God?
In fact, there is a tremendous amount of evidence that there is no god. Which is exactly what is being discussed in the "Irony" thread. Not proof, evidence.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I thought about it, and maybe it is a little provocative. Not to me, but I see how it could be taken that way.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I just think we weren't expecting the Agnostics to turn on the Atheists.
That said, I'm an Atheist with no active disbeief in God, and your remark earlier that sparked the controversy, Verily, was way off the mark, an Glenn pointed out.
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Maybe if Verily had put it in a different way, we wouldn't have gotten so upset.
<<SPOILERS>>
quote:There is no reliable evidence that the Easter Bunny does not exist. An adult simply believes it's true [lack of Easter Bunny existence], without evidence
Since, as we know, the Easter Bunny actively hides from adults so that they cannot see him/her/it. Any Easter Bunny that is seen by an adult is, therefore, a fake Easter Bunny. Children, however, know--without any real evidence--that he/she/it really exists.
posted
Actually, children do have substantial evidence that the Easter Bunny exists. He leaves physical evidence behind, that was not there the night before.
The fact that that same evidence tends to disprove his existence to adults is rather ironic, when you come right down to it.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
We also know where the stories and actions of the Easter Bunny come from. We have concrete proof that he's a myth. The same cannot be said for God.
As for the issue of whether my opinions are "appropriate", I have only one question. In a thread designed for people who have no belief that God exists to come and explain why they take the specific position that they do, why is it offensive for me, an agnostic, to offer my position, and no one else? I could hardly explain why I'm an agnostic without explaining why I'm not an atheist.
I fail to see where I was attacking atheism; I was merely explaining that atheism doesn't fit my world-view. The idea of Jesus as a divine being who could heal disease with the touch of a hand doesn't fit my world-view either. If I say that, am I attacking Christians? No, I'm simply saying that I am not myself a Christian. Only a Christian who was so sensitive that they get angry that anyone could possibly have beliefs different from theirs could be offended by that.
My statements were not an attack on atheism. They were nothing at all but an explanation of why I, a person with no belief that God exists, regard myself as an agnostic instead of saying that I'm an atheist. The way I see it, atheism is the belief that God doesn't exist, and I just cannot take my lack of belief that he does exist that far. I must acknowledge that I don't know whether he exists, and that either option remains a possibility.
Since the word "agnostic" was explicitly in the thread title, I had to assume that my position would be acceptable here. I did not interpret this as a thread for atheists to bear witness to the non-existence of God. It's not like I walked into a church during mass and said, "There might not be a God!" I could understand people being offended, or at least irritated, by that. But I maintain that coming into this thread and saying I am an agnostic rather than an atheist, and here is why, was valid.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Verily, we know perfectly well where the stories of the Christian god come from, to wit, they were made up by a desert tribe about 3000 years ago. And what is your concrete proof that the Easter Bunny is a myth?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
I really think you are over reacting to my statements. One, I pointed out that the definition of atheism you are using isn't the one most atheists use, and two, I pointed out that saying that there is no evidence for the non-existence of God can start arguments.
If I'd intended to attack you I would have used much different wording.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:I pointed out that saying that there is no evidence for the non-existence of God can start arguments.
In a thread designed for people to discuss the existence or non-existence of God, it's hard to imagine a statement that couldn't start an argument. Just because a statement has the potential to start an argument doesn't mean it was intended to start an argument.
Actually, what I most objected to was this:
quote:King Of Men's thread "Oh the Irony..." might be a better place to voice this, and see where it gets you.
I was discussing my agnosticism in this thread because it is called "The Nonbeliever thread for agnostics and atheists". Imagine that. I don't feel you have any right to tell me that in a thread designed so agnostics and atheists can discuss their beliefs, I can't come in and discuss my agnosticism. Furthermore, I have no interest in "where it gets me". I wasn't trying to "get" anywhere. I was adding my opinions to a thread made for people like me--non-believers--to give their opinions. I will not be told I was wrong to do so.
Edit: Actually, your statements weren't the sole reason for my reaction anyway. Having King of Men call me an "unreasonable fanatic" is what pushed me over the edge. Because I didn't repent at the first sign of disagreement to my opinions, suddenly I'm an "unreasonable fanatic"? Like King of Men is one to talk.
posted
Well, when you say "this is why I'm not an atheist" and then proceed to mis-define atheism, I can see why atheists (myself included) might feel somewhat put upon.
KoM, however, was attempting (lamely, perhaps, but still) to make fun of himself, not you.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
if we once believed in a higher power or powers, why we stopped.
I was raised Catholic. I went to Catholic private school for 12 years, the last 4 at a Jesuit high school. Went to Mass each Sunday fairly regularly, and on Fridays as well during grade school. Never had a religious experience. I did pray now and then, mostly as a means of emotional relief, although sometimes to get out of a mess in which I'd become mired. I never got an answer, but then I'm not sure I expected one.
I guess sometime in high school is when I realized I was agnostic. I don't think I have it all settled in my head right now, and my ideas about why I'm agnostic are still evolving, but I'll tell you what my beliefs are right now.
Basically, for me, religion and belief in a higher power is wish fulfillment. Take the big three monotheistic religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism); there seems to be one type of God. It is a god who is ubiquitous, omnipotent, omniscient and invisible. This bothers me. For the life of me, I cannot tell you why I should believe in that God vs. believing in some six-year-old's imaginary friend. All the powers could be the same. In some ways, the six-year-old even has an advantage because he/she could blame the imaginary friend for the mess in his/her room. I couldn't blame God for the mess in my room because that would be lying, which God doesn't like. There is no way to prove either being's existence, yet we tell children that their imaginary friends are fake and God is real. It would be better for me if God was real, and the six-year-old would be happier if his/her friend were real as well.
We want God to be real to protect us, to give us hope, to inspire us. We want the guilty to be punished in hell, we want the virtuous to thrive, and we want to be forgiven when we do something wrong. We don't want our morality to be based on something boring like efficiency of the community; we'd rather have a romantic reason why we do things. I think that is part of why the stories in the Bible are so powerful and maybe why Jesus taught in parables. I believe it also might be why we like to use adages and proverbs as explanations for what we do. If I started quoting statistics and probabilities as reasons for doing things, people would grudgingly agree but they would probably prefer "conventional wisdom". They prefer risk. How many movies have you seen where doing the safe thing was glorified? Not very many, if any. That would be boring.
We want to go on after death, or not really die. It's an innate survival instinct. We want to spend all of eternity with our loved ones. I believe that most who've experienced death want that.
We want to know what the causes of things are, how things began, how things will turn out. God and religion do all that for us.
To use The Matrix as an analogy, I think it's the difference between taking the blue pill and the red pill. The blue pill is a more comfortable life, although definitely not perfect. The red pill is what Aristotle calls "the examined life" and it's messy. I hated the real world (offline) scenes in the movie. What made it tolerable was looking forward to Neo (the Messiah) doing his stuff. The parts I loved the best were the fantastic fight scenes and Neo's amazing powers in the blue pill world. Yet I've chosen the red pill. It's a philosophical decision, and even though Cypher was portrayed as evil in the movie, I can't say he was wrong to choose to be reinserted.
from what source(s) does our morality spring?*
From efficiency. From wanting not to be scared every minute of the day that we'll be beaten, tortured, raped, lied to, stolen from, cheated on and cheated. One way to do that is to hope that the people who might do these things to us do not want those same things done to them. So we agree to behave civilly. It makes it easier to go down to the supermarket to pick up milk if you don't have to drive a tank, carry an uzi and pay more than what's fair at the grocery store.
Crime still happens, and the people who commit crimes are religious, agnostic AND atheistic alike. What causes crime (in the US)to go down is not how religious the people are, but how much law enforcement there is and how well people's needs are taken care of. Social norms can be followed more closely than the Ten Commandments except where they coincide. How often does an 8 old year old lie? Now how often does an 8 year old pee their pants? A lot less often than they lie, I bet. Yet what makes them not pee their pants? It's not the Bible saying they shouldn't.
So I guess I'm saying that civil, decent, moral behavior is a social norm. What a social norm is depends on what the society values. These norms can exist independent of religion, although religion does teach some of them and has norms of its own that are specific to its particular sect.
confrontations with people of a religious faith.
I guess I've had some confrontations with people on Hatrack, but also out in the real world. My older brother has asked me where I get my morals if not from religion. It amazed me a little that he hadn't thought about it. He's not a dumb guy. He's gone through medical school. He's a doctor. But it's not about being dumb or smart; it's whether religion works for you. It works for him and he doesn't question it much. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". I guess religion either doesn't work for me or I tried to fix what wasn't broken and it broke.
I've been approached by people out of the blue asking if I've accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior. When I tell them why not, they explain very passionately why I should. We end up being people who are trying to convince each other that our individual positions are correct, yet no one gets convinced. The born-agains and I were talking heads shouting opinions at each other.
if we feel alone without a higher power or powers to guide us.*
I get asked this by religious people as well. There's something to the existential fact that we can never really "know" one another and are stuck inside our heads, using Mediating Representation to explain the thoughts and pictures in there. I don't feel alone, though. I'm happily living in a co-op with 13 other people. They're my posse. We have nonreligious interaction and community spirit. We each cook twice a month and often all sit down together to eat. We have meetings once a month to talk about what's going on with our lives as well as house management.
how we deal with death.
Our time with anyone, with anything, with anyplace is fleeting. The passing of each day is sad. It's sad when old friends slowly drift apart. It's sad when you have to leave a beautiful vacation spot to go back home. Dealing with these things is similar to dealing with death for me. You just learn to live in the moment. Be grateful that your significant other is with you right now, even if they die or cheat on you tomorrow. Be grateful for running, jumping, skipping, hopping, tasting, smelling, touching, hearing, and seeing. Be grateful for your feelings and emotions. How do you deal with death? By living.
how we feel about religion.
The lack of a religious experience is the lynchpin for me. If I had that, I'd be posting in the believer thread. Those who've had one may be delusional, or I may just be too closeminded to have one.
Either way, it comes down to happiness. I'm happier without religion. Many more people are happier with religion. If I had a religious experience I might be happier with religion.
I get upset when religious beliefs interfere with things like stem cell research. I don't like when the Bible is used to demonize homosexuality when the Bible also demonizes working on the Sabbath and touching pig skin, which most of us conveniently ignore. I dislike holding the Bible up as absolute Truth when the Bible has contradictions.
Overall, I think religion gets used and abused in a lot of ways, but it also makes people happy. That's kind of the heart of compromise, making everyone happier.
Edit: removing the word male to describe the monotheistic religion's god. Also, I think I may have maligned believers by referring to the red pill as "the examined life". I think believers do examine their beliefs. They just don't come to the same conclusions I do and have more evidence (in the form of personal religious experience) than I do
posted
Most of Christianity doesn't actually teach that God is male, you know. The more conservative denominations/theologians argue that male language and images are the only appropriate way of talking about God, for various reasons, but still believe that God, in Godself, is without/above gender. (The LDS are one significant exception to this, of course.)
Not really relevant to the larger scope of your post, but I thought I'd point it out anyway.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
) told me to take a stand, and my religious friends (very few in number) warned me that I was on my way to hell (though always politely, never fire-and-brimstone). I always responded that my own soul, if such a thing even existed, was my own business. 
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
]
