posted
My point was to show the dehumanizing aspect of flippantly using the term "illegals". You don't like the term applied to you, it makes you defensive and closed up against me (and rightfully so).
I'm sure many of those who are coming here to help support their families because their current homelands don't have the opportunities would feel similarly.
Words have power, is all I'm saying. Be judicious, especially when trying to seriously discuss things.
posted
Bok – I didn’t agree with your point then nor now. I didn’t get defensive, I said I didn’t agree but that I wouldn’t use it here. Not sure why that isn’t reasonable.
That’s great if people get to come here to help their families in their homeland. Just do it legally.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
And what about all the people who aren't allowed to do it legally because we have such stringent restrictions on it?
Or those who can't afford the bribes often needed to get permission to leave?
What about people facing persecution, torture, and death in their own country to whom we deny asylum because, after all, they can't prove it? (How many make it out of their country with hard evidence that their government will kill them if they go back?)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
So does that mean I can call you an "illegal"? Since it doesn't bother you, and is just as applicable.
It's fine that you won't use it again out of trite politeness, but it's disturbing that you'll acquiesce without at least admitting you can understand why it might seen as a slur. That's a great way to develop a healthy persecution complex, in my opinion.
It's easy to write your last paragraph from the inside. There's corruption on both sides that make it impossible to enter legally, and the alternative is to remain destitute, or worse, for the rest of their lives.
posted
I don't know. I'm not really saying it's okay to break the law in every case; I'm just saying I can definitely sympathise. I do think there are many immigration policies that we really need to change. I also think if someone has a sane, morally sound idea on how to solve the world's problems, I'm behind them.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
It must not be all that strict since we have so many legal immigrants each year. I imagine with modern technology we could streamline a lot of the process and make it easier, but that is a different issue. Still needs to be done to the letter of the law. And there certainly isn’t much we can do about bribes in other countries. It seems we do help people from outlaw, out of control countries. But again, legally here in the US.
Bok – There’s a lot of things we do out of politeness.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Yeah, but I'm generally polite because I can empathize with the person I'm being polite to. I may not agree, but I can see why they think they are right.
posted
the first thing that would have to be completely changed is the governmental bureaucracy that's built itself up around this issue. THAT is gonna be a helluva job. I work with quite a few interntational folks here and I've had to deal with the INS and the State Department, and you're right, it's NOT easy to get here legally. Even with a job offer, preference is always and MUST always be given to US citizens. THere are a million rules and regs for a work visa, and twice that to apply for a permanent green card.
My issue: There's a reason it's not easy. You should have to work to get here. It shouldn't be handed out on a platter. Not to mention the whole national security issue. Or safety issues. Or criminal isssues.
And before I get crucified, let me just state that I don't think it's unreasonable to have an immigration program that would target the folks who want to come here from Latin America - and make it easier to get here LEGALLY, and work here LEGALLY. As for where they send & spend their money? It's their and they can bloodywell do as they like with it if they've earned it.
This, like all the other touchy issues, is not easily resloved.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Hey Jay, do you want your tax dollars paying for the food, water and medicine that a jail offers? Not to mention the fact that we'd need to build new jails, considering the sheer amount of border crossers there are in any given year.
I'd rather save jail-space for real criminals.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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quote:Because we're America. We've societal riches aplenty, and we can use them to lift other people out of poverty, and give them, at least, a healthier, longer life.
I don't know that this is a completely accurate statement.
For example, have you ever been to a charity hospital on a Friday or Saturday night? I don't think we can say we have so many societal riches they should just be here for the taking for whoever wants them.
There are many people in America who are full, natural citizens and even military veterans that aren't getting adequate health care, and yes some of it has to do with the fact that the systems in place to help them are overrun - too many people to care for, not enough resources. You can blame political parties or budget cuts or societal apathy if you want but it doesn't change the fact that we are having trouble taking care of our own needy, much less all the needy in other countries.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
But on the other hand, nt to say you don't have a point....
If the rules we have in place now were in place 100 years ago, most of our families would not have been able to come over to the USA.
Or they would have been "illegals"...
Jay, there were other points mentioned that you haven't addressed yet. There are many reasons why these groups have to be controled, not just one or two minor issues.
posted
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door."
Trying on some ideas for size...
Maybe we should encourage, anyone already in the country illegally to bring their families to the US. Then all money spent in support would be spent in the domestic economoy.
Drawback: Cost of living is higher here than in a 3rd world country.
Pro: If we agree with the proposition that families are the most stable unit of society, overall order will probably increase, and it is likely the net public support wouldn't be that much greater for a family than for an individual because of efficiency of scale, even if the children did get their education from a public school.
Pro: It is often in the struggle to break free from poverty that some of the world's greatest innovation genuis has been realized, if given an opportunity to blossom.
Con: It is much cheaper and less terrifying to get here, even crossing the Mexican desert, compared to the ships of humanity crossing oceans in the previous centuries, population is increasing exponentionally, balancing a trickle vs a flood of humanity is hard.
Pro: The people that sacrifice the most to make it here will probably make the best citizens... The Mexican desert is actually giving us the kind of immigrants that are most useful both as workers and as citizens.
(editorial comment, "Lazy Mexican" on top of being a horridly racial comment is a total oxymoron. How hard they work for the little they get and how thankful they are for what they do get should cause us to re-evaluate life priorities)
quote:Today's visitors to Ellis Island, although unencumbered by bundled possessions and the harrowing memory of a transatlantic journey, retrace the steps of twelve million immigrants who approached America's "front doors to freedom" in the early twentieth century. Ellis Island receives today's arriving ferry passengers as it did hundreds of thousands of new arrivals between 1897 and 1938. In place of the business-like machinery of immigration inspection, the restored Main Hall now houses the Ellis Island Immigration Museum, dedicated to commemorating the immigrants' stories of trepidation and triumph, courage and rejection, and the lasting image of the American dream. During its peak years-1892 to 1924 Ellis Island received thousands of immigrants a day. Each was scrutinized for disease or disability as the long line of hopeful new arrivals made their way up the steep stairs to the great, echoing Registry Room. Over 100 million Americans can trace their ancestry in the United States to a man, woman, or child whose name passed from a steamship manifest sheet to an inspector's record book in the great Registry Room at Ellis Island.
Thank goodness for less stringent immigration rules back then, about 1/4 of hatrack wouldn't even be alive.
Posts: 796 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
My family came through there too, at least a lot of it did. Some of them came over long before that though, and one small part of my family tree was here before Columbus... Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
It’s very true that the rules in place now wouldn’t have allowed as many to come back then. It’s a different time now. Especially with the war on terror we need to know who is coming across our borders. I welcome and enjoy that many people come here legally from many countries. A fellow Republican and Iranian immigrant have many discussions here at work on such issues frequently.
PC – If you had the prison system set up as a place where people worked instead of lounged, they wouldn’t have to be so expensive with their elaborate weight rooms, libraries, entertainment centers, and other amenities. How about that waste of tax payer’s money!
I’m truly surprised about the responses to this issue. I really didn’t think this would be controversial. Why on earth would you want to allow anyone to enter the country unchecked? UBL has to be enjoying the ease with which he could get a massive attack into place across the country. I realize it’s hard and paper work is cumbersome. So let’s fix that problem, not turn a blind eye to a huge problem that could eventually be disastrous.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Perhaps if we let more immigrants in the terrorists would have no reason to attack us, because we wouldn't be viewed as a threat to their way of life. Basically I think the isolationist policies and philispohical viewpoint that limited the immigration to begin with, are many of the same policies and philosopies that caused the rise of terrorism.
posted
I'm a first generation US citizen on my mother's side. She emigrated from Ireland about 40 years ago, legally. On my father's side, I'm an 8th generation Texan and a 4th generation Houstonian. I have both sides of this arguement in my immediate famliy. I'm fluent in Spanish becuase the lady that babysat me when I was little was from Cuba. I have no idea if she was here legally or not. I'm glad she was here. Vicente Fox wasn't too far off the mark when he said that the hispanics (not just Mexicans here, folks, not by a longshot, and do NOT get them confused unless you really want to insult someone)do the jobs that other's won't do.
Ideally, it would be nice if there was a way to work all this out nice and fair - but obviously there are too many people with lots of money on both sides of this issue. In the meantime, our economy relies on the cheap labor and we as taxpayers cover the difference in social services. Do any of you REALLY see this situation changing? Honestly? I'm down here in the middle of it, and I can't see a way out.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I'm not really a big fan of our immigration system, but what I can say is that if you don't like it then make the fact known.
That and the United States has a huge immigration issue. We are spending billions of tax dollars on social services for people who do not pay taxes. Not to mention the money we spend enforcing immigration laws etc.
That and I've noticed few people look at the full scope of the issue. Yes it costs us so much for us to have such high immigration, but how much does it cost us to keep it out. The best thing to do is have a happy medium of some kind, that is the most financially sound solution.
Also if you believe that decisions like this shouldn't have any basis in finances/economics then you should take a good hard realistic look at life. The problem is that so many people in their quest for perfect simple good seem to over look the real life issues of enforcing decisions and that though the United States may be a large wealthy land, it is not all-powerful.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
*waves* Hi Black Fox. I agree there are massive economic issues involved. I tried to post some of my own pros and cons as I thought them out. I guess it's a question of where we draw the line between money and conscience and about maximizing the greatest good. Too bad there isn't actually an equation to do that.
Establish immigration centers about every two hundred miles along the border. Want to immigrate to the United States? Bring your Mexican citizenship ID, fill out our forms and wait for a quick background check. Have a hamburger in the commisary while you wait and a free health exam.
Next, give them a legal immigrant card with a 10 year expiration date for themself and each family member who has come with them. Issue them a social security number and explain to them their rights in the workforce. Let them know what cannot be taken from them by employers.
Then welcome them to America.
Cuts out the illegal immigration and the coyotes that prey on them. Borders can be enforced more stringently as people trying to cross undetected are obviously doing it for reasons beyond immigration. The immigrants would be both aware of their rights and taxable.
Who loses in this? Mexico? If Mexico was truly concerned about the lives of the people who are immigrating from there to here, perhaps they could work to make Mexico a more economically equal society.
(edit to add) I mean, these are people willing to risk their lives to come to the United States for a better life. We have so many here as citizens who would not put their lives on the line to defend this country if it were invaded or threatened. People willing to risk their lives just for a chance at a better life... how can we turn them away?
And don't we need them to remind us of what we should be thankful for?
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
An excelent idea. The main duty of these vigilantes, in the words of the "Onion," is to "provide such a negative impresion of what Americans are like that no one will want to imagrate." I qoute from memory.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Jay you may want to do a tad bit more research on immigration. There is not a simple choice for a Mexican looking to feed his family. He can't choose between filling out paper work and boarding the American Legal Train and illegally crossing the border just because you don't like the law.
I have a friend in India trying to get a Visa to the US.
He's doing things legally and has spent several thousands of dollars to be turned down. Why? Because he's single and they say Single Men are not needed in the US right now. Too risky that he may jump his Visa or something equally unpractical.
Limiting legal immigration is easy and has been done for a hundred years in the US. It is to the point that it is a beaurocratic nightmare seeking to exclude anyone from coming here.
The Average Wait Time for legal immigration from third world countries is about 10-15 years. And then if you work hard for another 10 years, you can get your wife and family to join you, if you still have one.
The numbers of immigrants allowed in the US are tiny compared to the number who want to come. Decisions about who gets in legally is more often based on who you know and who you bribe than on the moral hard-working righteousness of the immigrants.
Work Gangs will not deter illegal immigrants. These are people willing to work, and willing to work in low-paying jobs that most of us refuse. Having them patch holes in the road won't deter them because they came to the US to patch holes. They are getting food and shelter, which is not too much less than they hoped to make, and much more than they could have made at home.
The cost of maintaining the labor gang will far out weight the savings they will give to the government.
And those companies already paid to do that work will protest that you are using illegal aliens to steal their jobs.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:My issue: There's a reason it's not easy. You should have to work to get here.
Wow. 'You should have to work to get here.'?! Why, exactly? You were fortunate enough to be born here. You did precisely zero work to become an American. You have been raised, nurtured, protected under the blanket of freedom, opportunity, and justice that America provides purely based on happy circumstance of birth, but they should have to work for it?
Edit: I am presuming you are a natural-born American citizen.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Nifty idea, Sopwith. I'm not sure we'd have room for everyone, but maybe we could work out a deal with Mexico where for every 1,000 of their citizens we take in, they give us a square kilometer of land. Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
He makes a better point than you do, to be honest, not that I agree with him.
I have paid all sorts of dies, blood and other, to be an American. My family has sacrificed a lot as well, for all that they started as immigrants.
I think since they would be taking part in the country we have made, there should be a cost to jion, because it is worth something.
I just don't agree with how those costs are payed for now.
And one way of another, I don't want nutjobs with guns on my lawn telling my hispanic neighbors to hit the dirt because they left their wallet in their house.
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