posted
Alright, do people just like stealing Heinlein's titles for movies that are completely unrelated? I mean Starship Troopers? The Day After Tomorrow? Are those movies at all related to the books of the same name?
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hey, leave poor Heinlein alone. It's not his fault he had no competition. Except Asimov, I guess, whose books actually stand up a lot better to the test of time. Asimov could probably still get published; Turtledove does, after all, and his dialogue is even worse, and he can't plot, either. Heinlein, eh, maybe if you edited him with a chainsaw. I like the juveniles, though.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Its really about time isn't it? I mean ST takes me two hours to read, I can afford to spend a minute and a half on an interesting digression, but if you need a month to get through the book, the day spent mouthing all those words you do not need for the story probably gets tedious.
The movie was in no way related to the book and while interesting in effects was a mistake and crime to the spirit of Robert H. The book was about the fighting spirit of soldiers and how that is the spirit that will take us out into the galaxy to face whatever we might find. All the rest was window dressing, in a sense what you see as digressions are the whole point of the book.
posted
BannaOJ, I think you'd have to be quite drunk or else tricked to see the Wing Commander movie. *shudder*
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I just bought another copy, not having recieved the loaner back.
I agree BC, Starship Troopers to me is about the forging of an ideal officer, one who is concientious and effective at his duty. It is about the conections in life that make us what we are, and ultimately define why we will fight.
I would dearly like to see a well made Starship Troopers made; one where they were faithful to the book. Not only to the technologies described within, but also to the culture he depicts within the military life.
Edited for a fat finger fix
Posts: 686 | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think a well-made, true to the spirit of the book movie Starship Troopers would be about as out of place in time as Patton. It would also probably have to be about as exceptional a film to succeed, I think.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
The movie Day After Tomorrow bears no relationship to the Heinlein novel (which is better known as Sixth Column).
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Starship Troopers, the movie, was a very deliberate satire - and in that regard, brilliant.
If it was a deliberate satire, it mostly failed, because most people can't tell what it was satirizing.
I personally think that they threw in those propaganda clips so that people would go "Oh, I guess it's a satire, and doesn't really suck like it seems." It's not a real satire, it just pretends to be one.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Alright, do people just like stealing Heinlein's titles for movies that are completely unrelated? I mean Starship Troopers? The Day After Tomorrow? Are those movies at all related to the books of the same name?
quote:Not only is ST a bad adaptation, it's an all-around bad movie.
quote:I personally think that they threw in those propaganda clips so that people would go "Oh, I guess it's a satire, and doesn't really suck like it seems." It's not a real satire, it just pretends to be one.
Part of the satire is how bad the movie is. The people who wrote the screenplay obviously wholeheartedly disagree with Heinlein's utopian ideals (and come on, there are a LOT of people who disagree fervently with the attitudes portrayed in ST the book). The movie was pretty obviously geared at pissing off each and every person who agreed with the book. The fact that it made so much money (and spawned a sequel!) is like extra salt in the wound.
[Edit] I mean, come on, they cast Doogie Howser and gave him psychic powers. "...It's afraid!" <marines cheering>
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
It sure was. It got you riled up, didn't it?
Every time I see people whine about how bad and untrue to the novel the movie was, I just laugh and laugh and buy another copy of the DVD.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
BC and Calaban, I disagree with both of you about the true meaning behind Starship Troopers. though I can't correct you at the present time because I only read it once, about 6 of 7 years ago. So I don't trust myself to represent the book acurately right now.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Given that the DVDs are about $7.99 new and half that used...I'm going to guess it'll take you a long, long time.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
you know what's funny also. i had never read the book before the movie came out. Didn't know it was a book. and refused to see the movie because I thought it was an Ender's Game ripoff.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Strider, I'm intersted to know what your feelings on the message of the book were.
When I read it I dont try to infer anything into what he's written so I take it at face value.
I see Rico and his life as a soldier. I see his relationships and his path from a boy to a man. I see an author that has written an entire novel from a tough viewpoint.
Perhaps the entire novel is vieled satire. Typically satire is specific to events of the time, and given tha the book was written in the late 50's the only war in that time was Korea. If it was a novel to discredit that action or discourage military service it fails spectacularly.
Posts: 686 | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Perhaps the entire novel is vieled satire. Typically satire is specific to events of the time, and given tha the book was written in the late 50's the only war in that time was Korea. If it was a novel to discredit that action or discourage military service it fails spectacularly.
I don't think Heinlein was being satirical at all.
The filmmakers, on the other hand, most definitely were.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think the movie was about as condescending as the book was, if in a different way.
I mean, MOST of Heinlein's writing is extremely condescending - he generally writes as though he knows everything and the viewpoints he express should be obvious to everyone.
Which could explain why I love him so, so very much.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I disagree, I still feel that Hienlien was not pushing an agenda when he wrote the book.
He was creating a universe through which his characters could move. He depicted the aftermath of a world not unlike that depicted in The Postman, where order had been restored after disorder.
In doing so he came up with a plausible working government wherin the protagonist might have a suitable reason for giving up "the easy life" to join the military. The tapestry of events within the book were probably not created for the purpose of inferring this or that or infuriating this group or that. They just were because thats the world Johnny Rico lived in.
I think Friday, Number of the Beast, and, goin out on a limb here, even Stranger, were not written with any agenda other than the exploration and journey of the character.
Edit for flow, and double negative .
Posts: 686 | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:I disagree, I still feel that Hienlien was not pushing an agenda when he wrote the book.
He was creating a universe through which his characters could move. He depicted the aftermath of a world not unlike that depicted in The Postman, where order had been restored after disorder.
In doing so he came up with a plausible working government wherin the protagonist might have a suitable reason for giving up "the easy life" to join the military. The tapestry of events within the book were probably not created for the purpose of inferring this or that or infuriating this group or that. They just were because thats the world Johnny Rico lived in.
I think Friday, Number of the Beast, and, goin out on a limb here, even Stranger, were not written with any agenda other than the exploration and journey of the character.
That's pretty forgiving of you - especially considering the numerous tangents in ST that I can't interpret as anything BUT agenda pushing. The puppy training story, for instance, and the entire segment on administrative punishment.
And yes, claiming Stranger wasn't pushing agenda is going pretty far out onto a limb - hang on tight, buddy!
posted
I can fly so hangin' on a limb doesnt matter that much.
When I read fiction I don't always infer things about the authors viewpoints from the writing. I read it as if I'm there. I don't let the fact that I disagree with the philosophy of the government depicted in ST prevent me from understanding why, within the context of the story, it may have actually existed.
I also don't infer that the author is trying to get me to belive that concept A is better than concept B. I look at it as simply this is what life is for this character. They're his or her dilemmas becasue thier world is different from mine
I think when writing RAH said, What if? and went from there. And yes when he went from there it tended to to have many tangents.
Posts: 686 | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
In that case, it kind of sounds like you're projecting your method of reading onto Hienlien's method of writing.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am about halfway through Starship Troopers and am so far unimpressed...like reading a John Ringo novel or something, anything, by Peter F. Hamilton...bummed and numb.
Oh, sorry, I'm new here. Hi.
Anyway. I got ST b/c John Steakley said it inspired him to write Armor. Armor blows ST away completely in every respect so far. I highly recommend Armor. Also, I am still trying to figure out why ST was a "controversial novel".
As far as pushing an agenda I think Heinlein escapes that by writing the book in 1st Person POV. The intrusive narrative IS the story.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't know if I agree with how you are using the phrase, Tom. I would say it's controversial because it argues against universal suffrage, but I don't know if the style of government it favors can really be called authoritarian--which is something I associate with fascism. (Unless it's authoritarianism by such a large group of people as to make the term meaningless.) The society in ST is still basically democratic.
My biggest issue with it is that Heinlein seems to only recognize the military as a means for showing the capacity to place the good of the many above the good of the individual. Leaving aside for the moment the fact that people join the military for a lot of other reasons, like it's their only job opportunity, I would say that he should have seen other ways of attaining full citizenship, like Peace Corp type service.
posted
Except they have the means of becoming those in authority.
I don't know that the defining feature of authoritarianism is that not everyone gets to vote. I think the means that the state uses to keep control factor into it as well.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
IIRC, if you disobeyed the state in Heinlein's novel, all kinds of horrible things happened to you.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hmm . . . maybe it's been too long since I read it. I don't really recall that, but you could be right.
(Seems like a silly thing for him to have added though, since it doesn't seem integral to his point.)
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote: Leaving aside for the moment the fact that people join the military for a lot of other reasons, like it's their only job opportunity, I would say that he should have seen other ways of attaining full citizenship, like Peace Corp type service.
If I'm remembering correctly, that was an option in ST.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: I think Auel has one more forthcoming.
As for Stranger, it was the fourth Heinlein book I read, and I enjoyed it quite a bit. Of course, I read the abridged version, so maybe that made some difference with regard to the editing comment.
If anyone ever wanted to know why we need editors, the unabridged versions of Stranger in a Strange Land and Stephen King's The Stand are beautiful examples. Better than both of them, though, is the original ending to Podkayne of Mars. <shudder> Had I read that original ending as a child, I don't think I ever would have read another book by Heinlein.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:My biggest issue with it is that Heinlein seems to only recognize the military as a means for showing the capacity to place the good of the many above the good of the individual.
On the contrary, in the book there are other ways. Many-most, in fact-of the people who earned their franchises did not do so by military labor.
----
Tom,
quote:IIRC, if you disobeyed the state in Heinlein's novel, all kinds of horrible things happened to you.
You recall incorrectly. There was mentioned flogging in public for the crime of drunk driving, hanging for murder, and speaking against the government was claimed to be potentially treason by one individual who didn't go further into punishments.
Beyond that all I can think of was that it was supposed to be bad news to attack soldiers.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:If you want to read the anti-Starship Troopers, try Joe Haldeman's The Forever War.
I read Forever War first, and liked it, and then read ST because I was told that if I liked FW, I'd probably like ST. I liked ST much more.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I watched the movie, and the only thing that I can think of is, How would Stanley Kubrick have handled making this movie? You drop all of the political commentary, and it's still a great military novel even with what's left.
Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Not that Kubrick would have dropped the political commentary, but still - Full Metal Jacket + Starship Troopers? Mmmmm...
Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Heinlien was in the real war against fascism, I think that anyone who mistakes the system in Starship Troopers, with the military an entity at the service of the democratic government as fascist is a poopy doo doo head.
quote: Heinlien was in the real war against fascism, I think that anyone who mistakes the system in Starship Troopers, with the military an entity at the service of the democratic government as fascist is a poopy doo doo head.
Well, again, it depends on one's definition of "fascism." The government described in Heinlein's novel is a totalitarian state controlled by the military and led by individual heroes (both military and business leaders, their "celebrity" justified by their success and service), and has focused its people on defeating external enemies (ideally real, but we can presume that imagined ones would eventually have to be necessary to sustain their sense of purpose).
It actually appears to quite closely resemble an idealized form of fascism.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
Anyway. I got ST b/c John Steakley said it inspired him to write Armor. Armor blows ST away completely in every respect so far. I highly recommend Armor. Also, I am still trying to figure out why ST was a "controversial novel".
Hooray, someone else who has read Armor. I've been recommending that book here for a couple years and don't think anyone's mentioned reading it yet. Power of suggestion in numbers (hey, it worked for Harry Potter)!
Posts: 1368 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, actually the government isn't controlled by the military - it's made up of e-military, and if I remember properly, current military wasn't allowed. The government was in place before the bugger war, so it wasn't actually focused on defeating an external enemy until the war started. I'll have to read it again this week to refresh a few things, it's been a few years since I last read it.
Posts: 880 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
