posted
What about the other verses of the national anthem that no one ever sings or knows about? Maybe one of them is more palatable?
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posted
Hanakah, Ramadan, Roshashana and several other religious holidays are also national holidays. Most of the major religions are covered by a "get the day off work" protection shield.
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quote: Do you have a suggestion? Write your own pledge.
"I pledge allegiance to the principles and ideals of the United States of America, a country dedicated to securing liberty, justice, and opportunity for all people."
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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"Hanakah, Ramadan, Roshashana and several other religious holidays are also national holidays. Most of the major religions are covered by a "get the day off work" protection shield."
I also have a very hard time getting a day off work for any of the Jewish holidays. Are you saying I'm supposed to be able to?
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quote:"I pledge allegiance to the principles and ideals of the United States of America, a country dedicated to securing liberty, justice, and opportunity for all people, under the all seeing meatballs of the Flying Spaghetti Monster."
posted
I believe -- have to go check to make sure -- that the Constitution only requires office holders to swear to the Constitution. There is nothing in it about swearing to God to be inaugurated, to witness in court, or any other public service. That's all been added in by custom or by religious lobbying.
IdahoEEBoy, note that TomD's suggestion only requires loyalty to the principles and ideals. Not to the country, not to any officeholders, but to the ideals. I have no problem with that.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I suspect most atheists are just resigned. Why make the noise when no politician, no political leader would dare speak out against God? For that's the only way such objections are allowed to be perceived, whatever the motives.
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posted
They should just remove "under God" from the Pledge. I'm sure some kids will still abstain for one reason or another, but it would be a huge step in the right direction.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I think it's common for workplaces to allow several "floating" holidays, which you can choose to assign to any day that is significant to you. In Utah, pretty much everyone in my office took off Pioneer Day (July 24). But the idea behind these floating holidays is that if your religion celebrates a day that is not a nationally recognized holiday, you can still get it off as a holiday.
I'm also surprised that even though your office doesn't pay you for those days as they would for Christmas, they won't let you take a paid personal or vacation day on a Jewish holiday.
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posted
Are you implying that you do have a problem requiring loyalty to a country?
Our country is the Constitution. It defines us, it exalts us, it provides our path. Not our geography.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Not the same, but I got all the kids mad at me for refusing to donate to the United Way because it conflicted with various beliefs of mine. The school was running a contest by homeroom - most donations per person - and everyone was pissed because I hurt their chances for a pizza party.
I went through this at work, too. We were asked to voluntarily have money deducted from each paycheck for the United Way, but what it really amounted to was your boss told you that the money was going to be deducted and you had to go through all kinds of paperwork if you wanted to opt out. Yeah, I know - but the more people contributing, the better for the department head, because it looked good on paper for the univeristy to have people regularly contributing to the United Way. (actually it was some type of charity clearing house, united way was part of it, but they also gave money to a bunch of other charities.)
I said no, because one of the organizations they gave money to was Planned Parenthood. I was told that I could specify that my donation go to something in particular, if Planned Parenthood offended me, then just specify something else. So then I countered with "Yeah, but that just means a greater percentage of someone else's money will go to PP, and I'm not okay with that. I want to opt out altogether and not contribute at all. I give my charitable donations through my church."
You wouldn't believe the hassle. The trouble. The phone calls from various departments. Why was I upsetting the apple cart? I stuck to my guns, though.
Personally, I do think the whole thing is blown out of proportion. All kids can opt out. If they don't want to feel left out, then they can stand and recite the pledge but just leave off those two words. Or they can just stand there and say nothing. I've seen kids do that when I was volunteering in classrooms, although I'm pretty sure most of them weren't saying anything because they didn't know the words. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I really believe in seperation of church and state. But the words "In God We Trust" on our currency rank about #11,426 on the list of things I care about. The pledge is right above it.
I just don't get why some things are such a big deal. And I'm non-religious/agnostic. I care about practical things that make a difference in our day to day lives, like health-care, education, and energy conservation. Some people like causes, and that's great for them. But I just don't get that mindset. There's always something to complain about - pick your battles.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Also, I think getting the day off work for religious reasons is federally mandated, isn't it? But you can't just get it off for the heck of it. As for Christmas, if we didn't make it a holiday, everyone would take it off and businesses would shut down anyway, might as well sanction it.
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posted
ONE NATION, INDIVISIBLE WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL
Maybe its just me, but THAT sounds beautiful to me. I don't think you can find a phrase more American than that.
And if we were able to go back to the original motto, I'd have to throw a party. Recently, I've been feeling that Canada is more American than America. It'd be nice to return to the ideals the Framers laid out for us.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I think Tom's point about the whole "one indivisible nation" thing being parsed as "don't forget who won the Civil War" is worthy of serious consideration.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:I said no, because one of the organizations they gave money to was Planned Parenthood.
It should surprise no one that this is the reason I refused as well.
You're absolutely right about the allocation aspect, by the way. If no one donated unallocated money, it wouldn't be a problem. Or if they assigned the unallocated money before tallying the allocated money, it would be OK. But they don't, so I won't donate to them.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I just don't get why some things are such a big deal.
As I said in my first post in this thread, I think the guy is an idiot for trying to make it a big deal. Arguing the point here is one thing, but I wouldn't trying to force that opinion through legislature. I agree, too many other things more worth consideration.
But as long as we're arguing anyway, I'm making my position known I really don't see how changing the motto and Pledge in the first place was in any way defensible unless religious hysteria is a valid defense, but I've long accepted the reality of it.
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posted
I don't quite see the issue with the "Civil War reminder." I mean, everyone who considered themselves at one time to be part of the Confederation, is now dead. Our country doesn't seem to have a problem with being united. If anything, the South is running this country right now.
I've lived in the South my whole life and am glad that we were united after the Civil War. Even the morons who take up Confederate flags on their garage doors recognize that its history only and don't seem to want to leave the union.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I wouldn't say everyone in the south considers it history. There are some folks here in South Carolina who would take up arms tomorrow if they could. Sad, isn't it?
posted
Well, even though I will certainly be persecuted and ridiculed for this belief, I'll say this: I like our national anthem. Especially the final verse:
quote:Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand Between their loved homes and the war's desolation! Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation. Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just, And this be our motto: "In God is our trust." And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
So I'm fine with replacing the Pledge with singing the National Anthem, as long as they sing the whole thing.
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posted
Which is, of course, exactly what everyone thinks. That they know what's really important, and anyone who doesn't agree with them doesn't get it.
I think this is why it's so hard to get everyone to agree on even the simplest things.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I have a fondness for that verse as well, but I think it is wrong for a national anthem in about 17 different ways.
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posted
Oh, I don't think it should be adopted. Just don't see a reason to ridicule anybody for thinking it should.
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posted
I don't think you should be ridiculed for liking the last verse, but...
quote:So I'm fine with replacing the Pledge with singing the National Anthem, as long as they sing the whole thing.
I take this to mean that you object to any form of pledge that does not require the person reciting it to affirm the existance of God. Or at the very least, that you object to any pledge which does not mention God.
Or is there another way to take that statement?
If so, I would ask why you hold this belief. You are no longer opposing taking the words out, but are now insisting that they be there. So, why do you believe the pledge of allegience must have "God" in it?
I can't think of any reason which is not deserving of scorn. But perhaps I am missing one.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Xavier: [QB] Okay, imagine a classroom in a public school during homeroom. ...
2) Remain seated, effectively announcing to the class that you have a problem with reciting the pledge. There are two reasons that you could have for not reciting the pledge, either you are an atheist, or you have something against the United States.
Or you're a Jehovah's Witness, in which neither of those two assumptions would apply.
Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
Nope, didn't help. Not parsing for me at all.
quote:Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation
There are too many syllables in this line...I can't get it to work. Not that it matters, I doubt anybody is going to put me on the spot tomorrow and ask me to sing it but it's just bugging me.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Yup. Forgot "Power". And should have said re, "ever" and "motto" that you sing them too quickly to be really graceful.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
O-oh! thus be it ev-er, when free men shall stand Be-tween their loved homes and the war's de-so-la-tion! Blest with vic'try and peace, may the heav'n-rescued land Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserved us a nation. Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just, And this be our mo-tto: "In God is our trust." And the star-spang-u-ul'd ban-ner in tri-u-umph sha-all wave O'er the la-and of the free and the home of the brave!
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posted
O’er . . . . . .Praise the . . . . . . the ram . . . . . . Pow’r parts . . . . . that we . . . . . . . hath watched . . . . .made were . . . . . . and so . . . . . . . . pre gal . . . . . . . .served lant . . . . . . . .us ly . . . . . . . . . a stream . . . . . . na ing . . . . . . . . .tion
Never mind, you already got it. I know how absolutely irritating it is to get something like that stuck in your head and not be able to resolve it.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
The pledge cannot be required. It is unconstutional to require someone to pledge an allegience when it is something they do not believe is proper, or because they don't agree with the sentiments. Period. I say that as one of Jehovah's Witnesses who didn't say it in numerous schools throughout my life and never had a problem. My son is now in school and when I informed the teacher he wouldn't be saying it, there was also no complaint (though it was requested that he stand respectfully, which I fully support).
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
(This land is my land, it is not your land, I've got a shotgun, and you don't got one, I'll blow your head off, if you don't get off. This land is private property! *giggles* )
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote: I believe -- have to go check to make sure -- that the Constitution only requires office holders to swear to the Constitution. There is nothing in it about swearing to God to be inaugurated, to witness in court, or any other public service. That's all been added in by custom or by religious lobbying.
In fact the constitution forbids religious tests for holders of public office.
There was a case just recently where a town held a recall election specifically to throw out a councilman (?) because he didn't say the pledge. Assuming his reason was because the pledge contained "under God," the pledge was used as a religious test. Even if that isn't his reason, it could still be used that way, and thus it's still unconstitutional, even without the first amendment.
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As I went walking,I saw a sign there on the sign it said "No Trespassing" But on the other side it didn't say nothing That side was made for you and me!
(Actual lines from the song)
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I really don't see how changing the motto and Pledge in the first place was in any way defensible unless religious hysteria is a valid defense, but I've long accepted the reality of it.
