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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Prometheus Bound? Notes on the Anti-Humanism of the United States Congress (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Prometheus Bound? Notes on the Anti-Humanism of the United States Congress
Irami Osei-Frimpong
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I did not comment on the length of your paragraphs. I commented on the varied subjects within your paragraphs.

Length would not be a problem if all of your sentences within a given paragraph were about the same thing.

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Zeugma
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Pelegius, your last two posts are so readable, please keep using this style. It completely changes how I perceive your tone. In a good way! [Smile]
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Jim-Me
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My suggestion was serious. Try using as many one syllable words as possible. It's actually quite a challenge. In the simple sentences here, I'm averaging about half.

Edit to agree that your last few posts are much more readable.

[ July 13, 2006, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: Jim-Me ]

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Teshi
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Deadly serious:

quote:
The image of Prometheus is one of the most common in western culture
You mean, like, about a quarter of the population knows what happened to him and why?

Pelegius. Prometheus is, first of all, although one of the more famous Greek Myth stories, not exactly a "common image" at all. A "common image" would be like the American Eagle something everyone can relate to.

It's okay to mention this kind of thing in your essays- occaisionally, if you think you have a good case- but you must give a short footnote or explanation of the story, even it's just a sentence. People are not going to get it, otherwise.

People are right about trouble in University. Essays must have clarity first, and you are anything but clear.

quote:
The site closely resembles what Berlin might have looked like in Nineteen Sixty-One
What site? I can figure it out and I understand that you are trying to do, setting a scene by making an allusion, but you go on and on about Berlin and only far later make a loose reference to whatever Arizona fence you are talking about:

quote:
than this one in Arizona
You can start obliquely like this, but sooner or later you do have to say what the heck you are talking about. Clarity.

quote:
[quote]
It is the essential thesis of democracy that laws have no virtue in themselves,

Here you make what is actually an opinion statement absolute: "the essential thesis of democracy", which IMO is a no-no. I have been squished by various professors and TAs for writing half as 'absolutely' as this.

quote:
...has decided that an individual human being is more important than a legislation, which has no life.
The "which has no life" on the end of this statement is completely uncessary. It just makes the sentence that much longer and windier, which brings me to my next problem with your writing.

Sentence length. Vary it. All your sentences are the same length and all are far too long. Writing constantly in the same length sentences, especially if they are as long, windy (as in wiggly, not moving air) and flowery as yours, makes people's eyes glaze over. This is what people here have done and people here are much smarter than the average population.

It is as detrimental to write in long complicated sentences all the time as it is to write consistantly in short simple sentences.

quote:
Such abstract thoughts are easier to comprehend when viewed in terms of individual human lives.
The fact that this is one of the shortest and easiest to read sentences in your whole essay is astonishing- and very, very bad. Sentences that are shorter can carry far much more punch and weight than the long, complicated sentences you love so much. They are also far easier to understand; no disassembly required.

If your sentences are all varied in length, your writing will be far more interesting and far easier on the eye of the reader. And your reader is important. Your reader is the entire point of the essay. You must communicate information not verbosity.

This goes for your paragraphs as well as your words. Variety is interesting, whether it is in your choice of words, your sentences or your paragraphs. Sure, you can have long sentences and long words and long paragraphs just not all the time. Gettit?

Clarity and Variety!

I have a friend who writes very good essays and consistantly gets As. (Mine are pretty good, but I wouldn't say they were exactly the model to follow.) I think I have a few of hers on my computer. If you would like to see an example of a decent (mine) or a very good (hers) essay, I would be happy to e-mail one to you (English-subject only for her). I sure she wouldn't mind.

We both attend the University of Toronto in Canada. I wouldn't say the standard is low there. Frankly, I can't imagine that this would be anything but a C or D there- if that- and it would depend what the aim of the paper was.

Pelegius, you may feel like we are consistantly dog-piling you about your writing but we are serious about the University problem. I doubt that you would do well at any University with writing like this. You are obviously very full of information, you just need to communicate it in an intelligent way, rather than like a mad and mumbly professor with overly-intellectual verbal diarrhea.

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Amilia
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Well, since you asked . . . here is how I would rewrite one of your paragraphs. I am basing this on the suggestions made it this thread. Original:

quote:
The state exists to serve both the individual and the collective good, and has no purpose when it neglects both the individual and the collective good, as is clearly the case in the instance of immigration when the good of the collective, that is the world economy, and the good of the individual, immigrants, is subjugated to the good of a minority group, regardless of how large this minority group is. There exists a common misconception that it is the duty of the state to protect its citizens, either collectively or as individuals. The population of any state is, at the time of this writing, a minority within the population of the world, and thus any actions taken to secure the position of the citizen of any stat above the citizens of other states are inherently antidemocratic. Furthermore, it has been demonstrated that Mercantilism is an ineffectual economic system and that attempts to secure the economy of one state at the expense of the world economy are doomed to fail. When Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence, he made it clear that the United States was to be a country where the rights of “all men” not the rights of the citizen, which are never mentioned in that document, were to be upheld. A leader who neglects the welfare of all men in favor of the supposed welfare of his voters must be either corrupt or foolish, and a state led by such leaders can only fail, turning perpetual inward and spiraling into oblivion and stagnation. In the context of The Bean Trees, Taylor’s actions are the actions of a patriot and a humanist, one who is not content to see the world run for the profit of the few at the expense not only of the many, but in the end, also of the few.
Rewrite:

quote:
The state exists to serve both the individual and the collective good; it has no purpose when it neglects either. Unfortunately, our current harsh immigration laws do just that. The good of the collective, the world economy, and the good of the individual, the immigrant, are subjugated to the good of a minority group, the citizens of the United States. The population of any state is a minority within the population of the world. Therefore, any action taken to secure the position of the citizens of any state over that of the citizens of any other state is counterproductive. When Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence, he made it clear that the United States was to be a country where the rights of “all men” were to be upheld. The word "citizen" is never mentioned in the document. A leader who neglects the welfare of all men in favor of the immagined welfare of his voters must be either corrupt or foolish, and a state led by such leaders can only fail.
For the most part, I just chopped your sentences up into smaller peices and removed points that did not seem to relate to the subject of the paragraph.
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Dagonee
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Hey, Pel, good for you for asking for suggestions. I think you're pretty smart, and I think a lot of people will get a lot more out of your posts if you can put some of these suggestions to work.

I'm also glad the thread has moved toward helpfulness - I don't think any particular comment was too mean, but it was getting close to piling on. This is much better.

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Kwea
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Pel, a reader shouldn't have to refer to an appendicies to understand what your first point is most of the time. I think that is the entire point of some of those earlier comments.

I often have to retype my papers to take out excessive wordage, so I know it isn't easy, but it does make the final paper a lot more readable. It also makes your points easier to comprehend, and debate.


Good luck.

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Jhai
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I'll try to offer up some constructive criticism, via the Economist Style Guide.
quote:
Metaphors

“A newly invented metaphor assists thought by evoking a visual image,” said Orwell, “while on the other hand a metaphor which is technically ‘dead’ (eg, iron resolution) has in effect reverted to being an ordinary word and can generally be used without loss of vividness. But in between these two classes there is a huge dump of worn-out metaphors which are merely used because they save people the trouble of inventing phrases for themselves.”

You do a good job of avoiding tired-out metaphors, but the use of some 'dead' metaphors could make your sentences more succinct and accessible to readers.

quote:
Short words

Use them. They are often Anglo-Saxon rather than Latin in origin. They are easy to spell and easy to understand... “Short words are best and the old words when short are best of all.” (Winston Churchill)

On a quick scan of your essay, the words "necessitating" and "innumerably often" caught my eye as having much simpler substitutes. I have trouble with keeping my words short at times as well. And, of course, sometimes a long word packs more meaning or describes something perfectly. But an essay filled with them is tiring on the brain, and needlessly so, if you could use simple language.

quote:
Unnecessary words

Some words add nothing but length to your prose. Use adjectives to make your meaning more precise and be cautious of those you find yourself using to make it more emphatic. The word "very" is a case in point. If it occurs in a sentence you have written, try leaving it out and see whether the meaning is changed. "The omens were good" may have more force than 'The omens were very good"...In general, be concise. Try to be economical in your account or argument (“The best way to be boring is to leave nothing out”—Voltaire). Similarly, try to be economical with words. “As a general rule, run your pen through every other word you have written; you have no idea what vigour it will give to your style.” (Sydney Smith) Raymond Mortimer put it even more crisply when commenting about Susan Sontag: “Her journalism, like a diamond, will sparkle more if it is cut.”

Please take this advice to heart. Many of your sentences have unneeded words and many of your paragraphs have useless sentences. For some people (both you and I) it's much easier to write a five-page paper over a two-page paper. This is because we blather.

quote:
Active, not passive

Be direct. A hit B describes the event more concisely than B was hit by A.

Many of your sentences are passive. Sometimes that's good in academic writing - too much active can seem too... excited? emotional? Something like that. But, in general, you should aim for active sentences.

quote:
Jargon

Avoid it. You may have to think harder if you are not to use jargon, but you can still be precise. Technical terms should be used in their proper context; do not use them out of it. In many instances simple words can do the job of exponential (try fast), interface (frontier or border) and so on. If you find yourself tempted to write about affirmative action or corporate governance, you will have to explain what it is; with luck, you will then not have to use the actual expression.

Avoid, above all, the kind of jargon that tries either to dignify nonsense with seriousness (The appointee...should have a proven track record of operating at a senior level within a multi-site international business, preferably within a service- or brand-oriented environment , declared an advertisement for a financial controller for The Economist Group) or to obscure the truth (We shall not launch the ground offensive until we have attrited the Republican Guard to the point when they no longer have an effective offensive capacity —the Pentagon's way of saying that the allies would not fight on the ground until they had killed so many Iraqis that the others would not attack). What was meant by the Israeli defence ministry when it issued the following press release remains unclear: The United States and Israel now possess the capability to conduct real-time simulations with man in the loop for full-scale theatre missile defence architectures for the Middle East .

Try not to use foreign words and phrases unless there is no English alternative, which is unusual (so a year or per year, not per annum; a person or per person, not per capita; beyond one's authority, not ultra vires; and so on).

I had to include the whole Economist briefing on this - it's just that good. You constantly use jargon - incorrectly at times, I might add - and it doesn't do much for your readers. Either they won't know what you're saying - in which case why try to communicate anything? - or they'll be irritated that you're trying (and failing) to use jargon to show off your knowledge. Anything can be explained simply, with basic vocab, if you try hard enough.

quote:
Tone

The reader is primarily interested in what you have to say. By the way in which you say it you may encourage him either to read on or to stop reading. If you want him to read on:

Do not be stuffy. “To write a genuine, familiar or truly English style”, said Hazlitt, “is to write as anyone would speak in common conversation who had a thorough command or choice of words or who could discourse with ease, force and perspicuity setting aside all pedantic and oratorical flourishes.”

In “How to Be a Better Reporter”, Arthur Brisbane put it like this: “Avoid fancy writing. The most powerful words are the simplest. ‘To be or not to be, that is the question,’ ‘In the beginning was the word,’ ‘We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is rounded with a sleep,’ ‘Out, out, brief candle,’ ‘The rest is silence.’ Nothing fancy in those quotations. A natural style is the only style.”

Your tone is the number one thing that is irritating most of the readers who come into your threads.

quote:
Syntax

Try not be sloppy in the construction of your sentences and paragraphs. Do not use a participle unless you make it clear what it applies to... To never split an infinitive is quite easy... Make sure that plural nouns have plural verbs... Use the subjunctive properly... Take care with the genitive... Respect the gerund... Do your best to be lucid (“I see but one rule: to be clear”, Stendhal). Simple sentences help. Keep complicated constructions and gimmicks to a minimum, if necessary by remembering the New Yorker's comment: “Backward ran sentences until reeled the mind.”... Mark Twain described how a good writer treats sentences: “At times he may indulge himself with a long one, but he will make sure there are no folds in it, no vaguenesses, no parenthetical interruptions of its view as a whole; when he has done with it, it won't be a sea-serpent with half of its arches under the water; it will be a torch-light procession.”

Long paragraphs, like long sentences, can confuse the reader. “The paragraph”, according to Fowler, “is essentially a unit of thought, not of length; it must be homogeneous in subject matter and sequential in treatment.” One-sentence paragraphs should be used only occasionally.

Clear thinking is the key to clear writing. “A scrupulous writer”, observed Orwell, “in every sentence that he writes will ask himself at least four questions, thus: What am I trying to say? What words will express it? What image or idiom will make it clearer? Is this image fresh enough to have an effect? And he will probably ask himself two more: Could I put it more shortly? Have I said anything that is avoidably ugly?”

If you don't recognize the parts of speech that the above quote is referring to, then you *may* be using it wrong. Complicated sentences aren't needed, most of the time - we aren't writing in German!


Finally, I'd say one of my biggest problems with your writing is that you're often simply *wrong* in your claims, particularly in philosophy & economics (my two areas of interest). The analogy between the Berlin Wall and whatever is going on in Arizona is incredibly stretched. The United States is not practicing mercantilism by keeping immigrants out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism). While I haven't been following the immigration debate closely, I haven't seen anything in the mainstream media that I might call "Objectivist-influenced neo-liberalism." There is plenty of philosophy that suggests that there is something inherently good about The Law, even though there are bad laws. In fact, I'd say that that's the current mainstream view in philosophy of law, although that's not always been the case. Your essential thesis certainly isn't essential, and I doubt it's true. Greatest good for the greatest number isn't equivalent to authoritarian, and could be meshed with democracy. Locke believed in Natural Law, but he also stated that all of our natural rights came, ultimately, from God. Do you really want to go down that path in your humanist argument? And you've given no justification for why the set of (limited) rights given to U.S. citizens are equivalent to the set of natural rights given to all mankind. While the U.S. does have some Calvinist background, I would hardly call Calvinist doctrine our country's root. I don't think the simple fact that it's easier to move boxes than living people debases free-trade - free trade is a rather complicated issue, and borders must be opened slowly. The Economist is not a journal, but a weekly magazine. Again, you're using mercantilism in an incorrect manner. Finally, there are so many mistaken ideas - which you present as the simple truth - in the last two paragraphs that it's painful.

And I didn't even get into an analysis of the actual reasoning of your arguments.

Learning how to write well is difficult. I've been there. You've shown a remarkable willingness to take criticism, which I admire, and I hope you continue to listen to the advice of others and work at improving your writing style.

If you'd like to see a couple of college essays, I have three on hand that I've gotten A's on: one is on corruption in China (written for International Econ), another on a will formulation of divine command theory, and the last on the meaning of life as seen in The Stranger with various takes by other philosophers (both written for a philosophy class entitled "Godless Universe"). Just email me (in profile).

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Phanto
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I have a very strong vocabulary; one that puts me in the upper tier. I do not, however, have a vocabulary that enables me to read very high level writing. The high level writing does NOT use complex vocabulary for capricious reasons. It does it because it expresses the ideas better, more efficently.

I could say: "The hane threatened an oitoishi, after a throw in, so white had to atari, escape, and let B connect."

That would be an acceptable use of jargon.

I can't think so easily of an acceptable use of complex wording combined with complex structure. This is simply because I don't think like that. I would have to read a high amount of it to think it.

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Blayne Bradley
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i liked the article and i think it was well done.
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Kamisaki
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Well, I actually did manage to plow through that whole jumbled morass of an opening post, and I don't really have anything more to say about it that others haven't said better. However, I do have to say that the writing tips offered by others in this thread have been excellent, especially Jhai's. Those quotes from the Economist are great, and seeing how I'm currently in a writing class for the first time in a couple years, I greatly appreciate them for my own sake. I would also greatly appreciate it if Pelegius applied those tips, for the sake of all Hatrackers. [Smile]

Phanto,
You're describing Street Fighter, right? Hadouken!!! [Wink]

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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
i liked the article and i think it was well done.

I rest my case.
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Orincoro
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This one is an absolute GEM!!! One Sentence, mind you, and he covers racism, the kkk, the constitution framers and a good deal else with one mighty blow or hot air:

quote:
Racism is heavily prevalent among many anti-immigration organizations, with new anti-immigrant lobbied joined some older groups such as the Klu Klux Klan, which devotes much of its web site (www.kkk.bz) to arguing that people of non-northern European descent were never supposed to be allowed to immigrate and there is doubtless a great degree of truth in their belief that many of the signers of the Constitution agreed with their views; however, regardless of the personal views of any signatories, such a specification was never written into the Constitution and if it had been, would have been overturned some time ago, or else the country would have collapsed in the late nineteenth century.
Many of the constitutional framers "agreed" with an organization that began a hundred years after the birth of the nation. Makes sense to me!

In defense of Peligius, I am inspired to paraphrase a recent favorite: Sir Philip Sidney

"The Poet claimeth nothing, and therefore never lieth."

[ROFL]

:::On a more serious note::: Thank You Jhai for that engrossing post. I hadn't heard all of those quotes, and they are, every one of them, good to remember. Perhaps VERY good to remember. Perhaps not? [Wink]

I jibe and crow alot out of turn, but I really do like that some of you go the distance in responses for Peligius. This is encouraging to me in a strange way, though I don't know why.

[ July 14, 2006, 05:31 AM: Message edited by: Orincoro ]

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
i liked the article and i think it was well done.

I rest my case.
I now propose my theory (still in development), that Blayne and Pelegius are the same person. Think of them as Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde, if you will. I don't mean to suppose that their seperate existances are some oh-so-subtle rouse on anyone's part, but merely that one must be the doppelganger for the other!

But which the madman and which the gentleman scientist? No-one knows!!!

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Lissande
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If Victor Hugo is even on your radar of writers to emulate, I can see why there might be a certain amount of talking at cross purposes going on. [Smile]

Hugo. Good stories, bad writing.

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El JT de Spang
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Great tips, Jhai.

Excellent quote, Jim-me.

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Blayne Bradley
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who what where now?
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Jim-Me
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Blayne, the gist is to state a full thought in words of short length, like this.

(Edited because I missed one.)

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Pelegius
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Teshi, off the top of my head I can think of several references to Prometheus in the cultural lexicon: Prometheus Bound by Æschylus (perhaps slightly esoteric), Prometheus Unbound by Shelly, The Prometheus Statue at the Rockefeller Center, The Prometheus Mural at the New York Library and a line from the musical "Camelot." In adition the addictive Promethean is in common usage, making the Prometheus myth is not just a well-known myth, it is cornerstone of our culture. When the Rockefeller center was built, a quote from the same play I quoted was inscribed in large gold letters, no footnote, none needed.

One of my favorite quotes is from Les Misérables, when the revolutionary leader addresses the assembled students. It is one paragraph, a model of nobility and clarity.
quote:
"Citizens, do you picture the future to yourselves? The streets of cities inundated with light, green branches on the thresholds, nations sisters, men just, old men blessing children, the past loving the present, thinkers entirely at liberty, believers on terms of full equality, for religion heaven, God the direct priest, human conscience become an altar, no more hatreds, the fraternity of the workshop and the school, for sole penalty and recompense fame, work for all, right for all, peace over all, no more bloodshed, no more wars, happy mothers! To conquer matter is the first step; to realize the ideal is the second. Reflect on what progress has already accomplished. Formerly, the first human races beheld with terror the hydra pass before their eyes, breathing on the waters, the dragon which vomited flame, the griffin who was the monster of the air, and who flew with the wings of an eagle and the talons of a tiger; fearful beasts which were above man.
Man, nevertheless, spread his snares, consecrated by intelligence, and finally conquered these monsters. We have vanquished the hydra, and it is called the locomotive; we are on the point of vanquishing the griffin, we already grasp it, and it is called the balloon.
On the day when this Promethean task shall be accomplished, and when man shall have definitely harnessed to his will the triple Chimaera of antiquity, the hydra, the dragon and the griffin, he will be the master of water, fire, and of air, and he will be for the rest of animated creation that which the ancient gods formerly were to him.
Courage, and onward! Citizens, whither are we going? To science made government, to the force of things become the sole public force, to the natural law, having in itself its sanction and its penalty and promulgating itself by evidence, to a dawn of truth corresponding to a dawn of day.
We are advancing to the union of peoples; we are advancing to the unity of man. No more fictions; no more parasites. The real governed by the true, that is the goal.
Civilization will hold its assizes at the summit of Europe, and, later on, at the centre of continents, in a grand parliament of the intelligence. Something similar has already been seen. The amphictyons had two sittings a year, one at Delphos the seat of the gods, the other at Thermopylae, the place of heroes. Europe will have her amphictyons; the globe will have its amphictyons. France bears this sublime future in her breast.
This is the gestation of the nineteenth century. That which Greece sketched out is worthy of being finished by France. Listen to me, you, Feuilly, valiant artisan, man of the people. I revere you. Yes, you clearly behold the future, yes, you are right. You had neither father nor mother, Feuilly; you adopted humanity for your mother and right for your father. You are about to die, that is to say to triumph, here.
Citizens, whatever happens to-day, through our defeat as well as through our victory, it is a revolution that we are about to create. As conflagrations light up a whole city, so revolutions illuminate the whole human race. And what is the revolution that we shall cause? I have just told you, the Revolution of the True. From a political point of view, there is but a single principle; the sovereignty of man over himself. This sovereignty of myself over myself is called Liberty. Where two or three of these sovereignties are combined, the state begins.
But in that association there is no abdication. Each sovereignty concedes a certain quantity of itself, for the purpose of forming the common right. This quantity is the same for all of us. This identity of concession which each makes to all, is called Equality.
Common right is nothing else than the protection of all beaming on the right of each. This protection of all over each is called Fraternity.
The point of intersection of all these assembled sovereignties is called society.
This intersection being a junction, this point is a knot. Hence what is called the social bond. Some say social contract; which is the same thing, the word contract being etymologically formed with the idea of a bond.
Let us come to an understanding about equality; for, if liberty is the summit, equality is the base. Equality, citizens, is not wholly a surface vegetation, a society of great blades of grass and tiny oaks; a proximity of jealousies which render each other null and void; legally speaking, it is all aptitudes possessed of the same opportunity; politically, it is all votes possessed of the same weight; religiously, it is all consciences possessed of the same right.
Equality has an organ: gratuitous and obligatory instruction. The right to the alphabet, that is where the beginning must be made. The primary school imposed on all, the secondary school offered to all, that is the law. From an identical school, an identical society will spring. Yes, instruction! light! light! everything comes from light, and to it everything returns.
Citizens, the nineteenth century is great, but the twentieth century will be happy. Then, there will be nothing more like the history of old, we shall no longer, as to-day, have to fear a conquest, an invasion, a usurpation, a rivalry of nations, arms in hand,
an interruption of civilization depending on a marriage of kings, on a birth in hereditary tyrannies, a partition of peoples by a congress, a dismemberment because of the failure of a dynasty,
a combat of two religions meeting face to face, like two bucks in the dark, on the bridge of the infinite;
we shall no longer have to fear famine, farming out, prostitution arising from distress, misery from the failure of work and the scaffold and the sword, and battles and the ruffianism of chance in the forest of events.
One might almost say: There will be no more events. We shall be happy. The human race will accomplish its law, as the terrestrial globe accomplishes its law; harmony will be re-established between the soul and the star; the soul will gravitate around the truth, as the planet around the light.
Friends, the present hour in which I am addressing you, is a gloomy hour; but these are terrible purchases of the future. A revolution is a toll.
Oh! the human race will be delivered, raised up, consoled! We affirm it on this barrier. Whence should proceed that cry of love, if not from the heights of sacrifice? Oh my brothers, this is the point of junction, of those who think and of those who suffer; this barricade is not made of paving-stones, nor of joists, nor of bits of iron; it is made of two heaps, a heap of ideas, and a heap of woes. Here misery meets the ideal. The day embraces the night, and says to it: `I am about to die, and thou shalt be born again with me.' From the embrace of all desolations faith leaps forth.
Sufferings bring hither their agony and ideas their immortality. This agony and this immortality are about to join and constitute our death. Brothers, he who dies here dies in the radiance of the future, and we are entering a tomb all flooded with the dawn."

Les Misérables was written to communicate Hugo's ideals, which it did to an astonishing degree, and is today revered as one of the greatest of all novels, and yet, I have heard it said on internet fora that this paragraph is an example of truly bad writing. I might then ask who writes well, if Hugo wrote poorly.
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TomDavidson
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Not only is it an example of poor writing, I would argue that Hugo wrote it as an example of poor writing. I think it's self-consciously parodic.
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Jhai
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It probably sounds nice and flowery as a speech, but I don't think it has much substance behind it - and that comes out when you sit down and look at the text. Simply using big words and talking about big ideas with grandiose imagery doesn't make a speech or written work good.

Think of the most famous *actual* speeches in history. MLK Jr's "I have a dream." The Gettysburg Address. Churchill's "Blood, Sweat, and Tears" JFK's inaugural address ("Ask not what your country...) Robert Kennedy's speech on the death of MLK Jr. FDR's declaration of war.

These are some of the most powerful speeches made in recent history. Why are they so moving? Why do they affect so many people?

Hint - it's not because they use big words or extended metaphors or try to discuss all of the "great ideas" in human history.

[ July 14, 2006, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Jhai ]

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kmbboots
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Pel, I love Hugo. If you will notice, though, he intersperses short sentences with his long ones.

"Revolution is a toll."

"This protection of all over each is called Fraternity."

"Citizens, do you picture the future to yourselves?"

"Courage, and onward!"

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mr_porteiro_head
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Fire bad!
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kwsni
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Tree pretty?

Ni!

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Pelegius
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Jhai, I would argue that all of those speeches, with the possible exception of MLK's, are largely empty. Lincoln and Churchill did far better on other occasions:
quote:
But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was their finest hour."
Churchill

quote:
With high hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured.

On the occasion corresponding to this four years ago, all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. All dreaded it--all sought to avert it. While the inaugeral [sic] address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, insurgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war--seeking to dissole [sic] the Union, and divide effects, by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war; but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive; and the other would accept war rather than let it perish. And the war came....
ne eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the Southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was, somehow, the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union, even by war; while the government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war, the magnitude, or the duration, which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with, or even before, the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has his own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offences which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope--fervently do we pray--that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether"


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Jhai
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*shakes head*

You're seeking advice about how to improve your prose, Pel. Those speechs are *some* of the best ever spoken - judged both by the reaction they got at the time and looking back through history. Communication is judged by how well those who hear it understand the message. The vast majority of people see the speeches I mentioned as very, very good at sending an important message.

Do you think everyone else is wrong about these speeches, or could you perhaps be missing something?

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Pelegius
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The speaches I cited by Churchill and Lilcoln are better becouse they have a degree of depth to them. I never much liked the Gettysburg Adress, it says to little. The greatest speech, albeit fictitious, is Marc Antony's Eulogy in the Shakespearean version of Julius Cæsar.
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kmbboots
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I must disagree with you about the Gettysburg Address.
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Pelegius
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What does it actually say? It is essentially empty rhetoric commiserating a bloody battle. It was the perfect speech for the moment, and deserves to be remembered, but it is not one of the great works of modern philosophical communication. His Second Inaugural Address, on the other hand, is.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Pelegius:
The speaches I cited by Churchill and Lilcoln are better becouse they have a degree of depth to them. I never much liked the Gettysburg Adress, it says to little. The greatest speech, albeit fictitious, is Marc Antony's Eulogy in the Shakespearean version of Julius Cæsar.

The Gettysburg adress lasted what? all of 3 minutes? There is power in your choices about presentation as well. Please do us all a favor and read Aristotle's Poetics, or rhetoric, or prefereably both. I know. You're going say:

"Though I have lightly perused those anti-deluvian documents, mine own hubris doth forbid me to invest but the slightest turn of the clock to them...."

Gah.

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Pelegius
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Twenty minutes of content is better than three minutes without any. You may have noticed that the best films tend to be long, becouse the explore concepts in depth. The Best of Youth, one of the finest films I have ever seen, is six hours.
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kmbboots
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In three minutes (less) Lincoln reminded us of what the country was about.
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El JT de Spang
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quote:
What does it actually say? It is essentially empty rhetoric commiserating a bloody battle.
So you do realize that empty rhetoric is bad, then. Another piece to the puzzle falls into place.
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Jon Boy
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quote:
Originally posted by Pelegius:
Twenty minutes of content is better than three minutes without any. You may have noticed that the best films tend to be long, becouse the explore concepts in depth. The Best of Youth, one of the finest films I have ever seen, is six hours.

While many good films may be long, many long films are not necessarily good. Keep that in mind.
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Pelegius
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kmboots, yes. It is a good speech for that purpose, but that is not a particularly ambitious purpose. A good speech can reiterate what a country is about, a great speech can redefine it.
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Pelegius
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Jon Boy, nor did I say otherwise.
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El JT de Spang
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Also, I believe you meant to say 'commemorate', not 'commiserate'.

/nitpick.

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Pelegius
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Yes, I did.
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Amilia
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quote:
A good speech can reiterate what a country is about, a great speech can redefine it.
Which is exactly what the Gettysburg Address did. Before that, "all men are created equal" meant "all white men are created equal." Lincoln closed his address with:

quote:
It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us. . .that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion. . . that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain. . . that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom.
By saying that those who fought for the Union were fighting to preserve a nation where all men were created equal, he redefined what the phrase meant. Because even though the war was ostensibly being fought to keep the nation together, everyone knew that slavery was one of the major things that was tearing it apart. And while it may have taken 100+ years to truly give our nation a "new birth of freedom," it was this speech that redefined the terms.

IMHO, of course.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
A good speech can reiterate what a country is about, a great speech can redefine it.
I would argue that this is exactly what the Gettysburg Address did. Consider what exactly Lincoln says our forefathers brought forth.
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Jhai
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Brevity has its own power as well. Sure, it's nice to really delve into topics. But the human mind is frail, and something short and succient is more powerful, if only because we can remember it longer.

Also, there's simply an innate elegance in taking an idea, and expressing it masterfully in a few short lines. This is recognized in all fields, from poetry to mathematics. The most beautiful proofs have not a word or symbol that goes to waste, and neither do the best poems. Nor does the Gettysburg Address, and that's partly where it derives its beauty and power.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Twenty minutes of content is better than three minutes without any.
In many situations, three minutes of content is better than 20 minutes of content.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Pelegius:
Twenty minutes of content is better than three minutes without any. You may have noticed that the best films tend to be long, becouse the explore concepts in depth. The Best of Youth, one of the finest films I have ever seen, is six hours.

Did it ever occur to you that because a film is going to be a long one, more time, energy, thought and feeling are invested in it by its creators? This may be because the length is a weakness, which must be handled very carefully. Again, read poetics if you'd like one good view of propriety in length.

Lincoln, on the other hand, was investing something different from time in the Gettysburg Adress. There is strength of a different kind in that.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:
Twenty minutes of content is better than three minutes without any.
In many situations, three minutes of content is better than 20 minutes of content.
For one thing, you can REMEMBER 3 minutes of content. Don't many school children memorize the GA? You can't memorize these other speaches easily, or call them to mind as freely. Memorability has kept this speach alive, fresh in our minds for 150 years. That's something.
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Teshi
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quote:
I can think of several references to Prometheus in the cultural lexicon: Prometheus Bound by Æschylus (perhaps slightly esoteric), Prometheus Unbound by Shelly, The Prometheus Statue at the Rockefeller Center, The Prometheus Mural at the New York Library and a line from the musical "Camelot." In adition the addictive Promethean is in common usage, making the Prometheus myth is not just a well-known myth, it is cornerstone of our culture. When the Rockefeller center was built, a quote from the same play I quoted was inscribed in large gold letters, no footnote, none needed.
Pelegius! Listen. The fact that the story of Prometheus is mentioned or featured in a bunch of places or works does not make it a 'common' image. I'm sure the story of Prometheus is buried so deep in our society that if we looked we could find it everywhere. I'm not saying that your reference to Prometheus is bad or wrong I'm saying you have the wrong idea about what is ordinary- what is "common". By all means, feel free to use ancient/obscure images, stories, references here and there but when you do briefly remind us what the story is. What seems like second nature to you may not be to your neighbour. The cornerstone of their culture is not greek myth but, as I said before, the Eagle.

I cannot think of a story that I would reference in an essay without giving at least a little of the story, as it is related to the topic, somewhere in the writing. I might do it in fiction (a title without an explanation, or a quote at the beginning), but only in fiction and only with the absolute certainty that it was the right thing to do.

quote:
modern philosophical communication
To me, that comment sums you up in a nutshell. To you, everything is grand designs and great, lengthy philosophical prose-poetry. It is the Titanic. It is the Nile and Mount Everest, the Pyramids at Giza and the Great Wall of China. Socrates and Shakespeare. Why? What for? Every time someone speaks, or you speak, it is not always fanfares and flowers and does not need to be. Sometimes, you can have an idea without it having to make a big deal about writing it giganticly. It can just be there in plain old common words.

Learn that the power of words does not lie only in its complexity (such as Hugo writes- although as someone pointed out he does vary his sentence length which you should do as a start)- but also in pure, blank, short, simple sentences.

(From 'Waiting for Godot')

quote:
VLADIMIR:
We can still part, if you think it would be better.
ESTRAGON:
It's not worthwhile now.
Silence.
VLADIMIR:
No, it's not worthwhile now.
Silence.
ESTRAGON:
Well, shall we go?
VLADIMIR:
Yes, let's go.
They do not move.

(From- well- this one is a common image. [Wink] )

quote:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

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Jhai
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I might also note that, on this continent (and the British Isles), at least, philosophy is typically not conducted in that flowery poetry-prose style. Modern philosophy is becoming increasingly analytical. It's a move I, for one, applaud. If you want to continue to write "philosophy" in your manner, however, then you'd better brush up on your French. Or find a university with a strong continental approach, which is fairly rare.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Teshi:
quote:
I can think of several references to Prometheus in the cultural lexicon: Prometheus Bound by Æschylus (perhaps slightly esoteric), Prometheus Unbound by Shelly, The Prometheus Statue at the Rockefeller Center, The Prometheus Mural at the New York Library and a line from the musical "Camelot." In adition the addictive Promethean is in common usage, making the Prometheus myth is not just a well-known myth, it is cornerstone of our culture. When the Rockefeller center was built, a quote from the same play I quoted was inscribed in large gold letters, no footnote, none needed.
Pelegius! Listen. The fact that the story of Prometheus is mentioned or featured in a bunch of places or works does not make it a 'common' image. I'm sure the story of Prometheus is buried so deep in our society that if we looked we could find it everywhere. I'm not saying that your reference to Prometheus is bad or wrong I'm saying you have the wrong idea about what is ordinary- what is "common". By all means, feel free to use ancient/obscure images, stories, references here and there but when you do briefly remind us what the story is. What seems like second nature to you may not be to your neighbour.

Actually I am convinced that Peligius knows damn well that mentioning Prometheus in the title is going to invite some scratched heads, and some suggestions to tone it down a notch.

Thus the argument ensues, and the manipulation is entirely successful, because he has been "pulled in" to an argument about how smart he is compared to everyone, and "why should I change it if it is so natural to me?"

I for one, didn't have a problem with Prometheus, but I would NEVER use it in a title unless the essay was HEAVILY influenced by the image. The essay that has Prometheus in the title offers itself as a source of a new definition, or a new "setting" of the myth if you will, with the author's own take on its significance. Because the image is 1. Esoteric and 2. Loaded, using it in an essay, (in the title no less!) is something not to be entered upon lightly. This feels like it was added on as a little flourish at the end, and that's annoying.

Consider this: You mention Prometheus and you have NO idea which part of the myth people are going to relate to. Are we going to imagine flying high in the sky? Falling? Breaking out of prison? Temprance? Bravery? Wisdom? What? Its just too much stuff to deal with, and the many images are unwealdy. You have to hone the topic, not introduce this whole world of ambiguity to it!

I mean, this is like starting a short essay with the title: "Iraq: Just like WWII"

Such a title would demand an IMMEDIATE "just kidding folks," or some other admission that the title is offered in jest, because no reasonable essay or even a fairly substantial book could cover a topic like that. The title, if you use it, should be a guiding line to your essay, not a kind of garnish you put on at the end to say "look what I can do."

Remember that in poetry composition workshops, the title of the poem is criticised just as much as any of the lines, and often more.

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Pelegius
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"You mention Prometheus and you have NO idea which part of the myth people are going to relate to. Are we going to imagine flying high in the sky? Falling? Breaking out of prison? Temprance? Bravery? Wisdom? What? Its just too much stuff to deal with, and the many images are unwealdy. You have to hone the topic, not introduce this whole world of ambiguity to it!" Every referance to the myth I have read focuses on the bringing of fire to man and the subsequent binding to a mountain.
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Orincoro
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Gah- I mixed up Icarus and prometheus then- same idea though, loaded myth.

edit: Which in a way totally proves what everybody else, and I are all saying. I saw Prometheus, thought of the Icarus myth, and still found a reason why the myth might be tied to the topic. Its such a broad thing, like Hamlet, or the Genesis story, you can use it for anything, so it becomes less effective in a way.

That and, it shows that not everybody is up on their greek mythology.

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Pelegius
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"The cornerstone of their culture is not greek myth but, as I said before, the Eagle." The Silver Eagle marched before countless conquering armies is a symbol of nationalism, one which, paradoxically, transcends national boundaries; Prometheus is a symbol of humanity and human greatness.

"It is the Titanic. It is the Nile and Mount Everest, the Pyramids at Giza and the Great Wall of China." C'est le monde, c'est humanité.

Orincoro, it is the very loaded nature of myths which make them so good for communicating. Looking at an Ancient Roman vase of Æneas fleeing Troy, we are reminded not just of the Æneid but also of Freud's observation that "Every man carries his Anchises on his shoulders."

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