quote:Originally posted by pH: ...because I've never been up-front about anything before?
Well Sam, I'm sorry I'm just not as "principled" as you. I tend to expect people to behave in a semi-civil manner. If they don't, I don't see why I should be forced to continue to put up with it.
-pH
These are principles of procedure, I don't see it as a contest.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
"I still don't think it SHOULD be seen as so terribly rude if terribly rude things have been said to you inside the thread. If people want to be treated with respect and courtesy, they should treat others that way as well."
I agree except for the "to you" qualifier. A person who brings up a topic that that leads to rudeness overwhelming conversation should be able to decide "Enough is enough. Hatrack isn't a trolling society." And as Belle has said, accidental release of information that should have been held private is a good reason for deletion.
What I don't understand is deletion of historical threads, ie Jatraqueros' realtime reaction to historical events, and of technical threads in which no such rudeness had occurred.
posted
Yeah aspectre, that doesn't make any sense to me either. I wish that we still had the threads that were posted as 9/11 was unfolding, for example.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Oh, and Dr. Strangelove, I answered you as best I could in the deleted thread, but I'm afraid my response was just a guess. I think that the thread was created in the 2001/2002 timeframe, but I'm a long way from certain of it.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Ya know, that seems like a devilishly long time ago, but when I think about it, I think my first lurking stint was around that time. I was just about to start posting when I left the country for a month and didn't get back into Hatrack for another few years.
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:I don't think you owe the "community" anything if they don't give you the basic respect owed any intelligent human being.
Which was, I think, the problem with the thread you deleted. You felt like you were being dogpiled (unnecessarily and unprovoked), while other people didn't feel that way at all.
When there's just as good a chance that the OP is overreacting as there is that actual dogpiling, I'm against thread deletion. It seems like the internet equivalent of, "I can't hear you!"
*In case you don't remember, I didn't participate in the thread you're talking about. So I certainly don't have anything invested in arguing against you deleting it.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:You only say this because you've never had a thread that YOU started turn terribly ugly and cruel towards yourself.
Amen.
I delete threads. I'm sorry - I don't do it without careful thought. However, there have definitely been times where I started a thread and someone was horribly nasty in it - like the time I asked what to do with my unused wedding dress and KoM suggested I hang myself with it.
I'm glad we can delete threads, and I'll delete threads where terrible things are said to me. I'm sorry for the overall effect of deleting threads, but I've never been sorry for any specific instance.
There is a lot of leeway on this board - people can get fairly nasty before anything happens. That's fine, but the deleting the thread is like the ultimate escape clause. The only way to get rid of that option would be to up the moderating in a big way. I don't see that happening.
For the record, that and the release of personal information are the only reasons I can think of to justify deleting a thread. If it's just because a thread has gone off track or, heaven forbid, is no longer focusing on the attention-seeker who started it, then that's a bad reason.
It's like the Roman government during the time of empire - autocratism tempered by assasination.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Knowing that I could never go back and edit or delete my words would severly limit my participation in a forum.
Exactly.
I used to be all principled about thread deletions and stuff. Then I said some things that I didn't realize were terrible to the people I said them too, and both of us wound of leaving for several months. I'm not a Hatrack regular anymore, but I love a lot of people who are, and the fact that words stay can make it very hard to be human.
Whenever we have genuine contact with others, we take the risk of being hurt, and I think that includes the possibility of thread deletion. Learning who you don't wish to have such contact with is part of life.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Cause it was a joke. In a thread full of joking suggestions about what to do with the dress, started off by Katie posting her top 10 list of things to do with an unused wedding dress.
It was definitely in poor taste, but it was clear that he wasn't seriously suggesting that she hang herself with the dress.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Because of actions and then defenses like that, I'm glad we can delete threads. I'm sorry when it's done for bad reasons, but I don't think they are all bad reasons.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Sorry you don't like KoM, but that doesn't change the fact that he was joking in a joke-filled thread and you took offense. And you were the one who started the joking.
What did you expect? That only people who were preapproved by you would come in and joke, and only within the bounds of propriety (as determined by you)?
I'm not saying it was or it wasn't out of line, because that's not up to me. If it was offensive to you, then you know where the whistle is. That's why we have mods, and excellent ones at that.
I guess for me it's a question of intent. You can always find offense if you're looking for it, but if it's clear that none is meant then that seems like an awfully defensive way to go through life.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I did whistle it, in tears. Nothing happened.
That's what I mean - it could conciveably be seen as a joke. A tacky, mean one by someone who is regularly unspeakably rude. If it's still okay to do, then I'm grateful there's a Drop Dead button on the thread.
I was actually imaging that people would be nice, supportive, and not kick someone who is down. There are forums where people act that way - maybe not naturally, but because the alternative isn't tolerated. There's more freedom here, but there are also more jackasses. Thank heavens, there is also the delete button.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I have created an account to say these things:
I reserve the right to delete any and all of my posts, a right shared by all members of this community.
The ability to do this has existed since well before I joined and was not of my own invention. Nor was this the first thread I have deleted, nor indeed was I the first Hatracker to delete a thread.
I wish that there were a way to add an explanation of why a thread was deleted, but this is not within my power. In retrospect, I should have created a thread on the subject.
For the record, I deleted the thread for the most obvious reason: I regreted its existence. I regret having written what I wrote then at a moment of intense stress.I did not wish to maintain a thread on the subject any longer.
Posts: 1 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by pel@school: I reserve the right to delete any and all of my posts, a right shared by all members of this community.
The ability to do this has existed since well before I joined and was not of my own invention. Nor was this the first thread I have deleted, nor indeed was I the first Hatracker to delete a thread.
Yup, you have the right. You even have the right to delete it without any warning, as you did. It's rather rude, though.
And those of us who didn't appreciate the deletion will be that much less likely to post in future threads you start. Moreover, you should be aware that one way Hatrack has dealt with frequent thread-deleters in the past is for people who still had the thread cached (or who had been deliberately saving it) to repost the thread themselves after deletion.
But yes, you certainly have the right to delete threads.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Sorry, I was writing this two hours ago. But I still feel like saying it, so here it is:
quote:JT, if you don't see the difference between suggesting suicide and the other joking suggestions . . .
Maybe if you guys could compile a list of all the things it's okay to joke about, for easy reference. It would have certainly been alright to make that joke to a group of my RL friends, in the proper context.
Are all jokes about suicide off-limits? What if it's animal suicide (I assume lemming jokes are still kosher, so to speak)? What about cartoon characters?
Point 1: everyone has different limits, and it's nearly impossible to predict (except with those you're closest to) what will and will not offend. So you either don't joke, or don't take yourself so bloody seriously.
Point 2: you whistled the post, and nothing happened. What does that say to you? Did the mods (who are typically praised for being exemplary) fail you? Did you overreact? Did they not see it? Number two seems far and away the most likely to me.
I see what you're saying, and I know full well you're not changing your mind just because I disagree. I just wanted to chime in and say I don't agree that thread deletion is alright in the scenario you list (that is, when you don't like the direction the thread is heading in). That attitude is just too...vigilante for me.
------
Pel, as rivka mentioned, you're certainly entitled to delete any posts of your own that you see fit. The objections raised here and elsewhere come not from deleting your words but from deleting the words of the others who participated in your thread. That is my main objection to thread deletion, along with several other people.
Your words are yours. But to delete other people's posts is disrespectful, IMO.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Jokes about things that still hurt are off limits. Jokes about suicide on occasions where people actually have killed themselves over are off limits. Kicking someone when they are already down is off limits.
quote:you whistled the post, and nothing happened. What does that say to you?
That I have to take care of myself because no one will do it for me.
Hence the delete button.
It would be vigilante if I hacked Hatrack to do it. When it's presented as an option, then it is exactly that - a permissable option. It can't be vigilante then.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Jokes about suicide on occasions where people actually have killed themselves over are off limits. Kicking someone when they are already down is off limits.
Name me an occasion that someone hasn't committed suicide over. You're picking a nit. You don't like the joke, but I think that's more because you don't take jokes from KoM as jokes than because of the actual content of the joke. It's understandable, really. If I knew that someone felt nothing but contempt for my faith, the center of my being, I probably wouldn't want them participating in my lighthearted self-deprecating thread, either.
quote:It can't be vigilante then.
When the normal course of action 'fails' you and you take matters into your own hands, I call that vigilante. You don't, and that's fine. I promise not to reveal your secret identity if you promise not to bring down any of that world famous vigilante justice on me. Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Yup, you have the right. You even have the right to delete it without any warning, as you did. It's rather rude, though.
And those of us who didn't appreciate the deletion will be that much less likely to post in future threads you start.
Exactly.
As long as I believe, as I do now, that you are likely to delete any thread of yours, I will not invest time or effort into any thread you start. I may post in them, but I will never post anything that I would mind being thrown away.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Thank you for understanding. I think KoM understood that it wouldn't be appreciated at the time as well, which is why I objected. It's like crashing your ex-boyfriend's wedding.
quote:When the normal course of action 'fails' you
It IS a normal course of action, though. It's there as an option. You can delete a post you have written, and you can delete a thread you have started. If a thread gets personally nasty, you can whistle a post or you can delete it without a waiting period.
It's like getting a divorce. You can try a trial separation first, work through a mediator, and go to counseling, or you can just file. Nothing on that list is vigilante.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
And isn't that what this whole thread is about? Whether or not the original poster should have the right to delete their thread? Obviously, we're at an impasse, because you think the answer is 'yes', and I think it's 'no'.
That's why it seems vigilante to me(I shouldn't have been so cavalier -- going with the first word that fit my meaning), and I wouldn't do it. You're obviously correct in saying that you have the ability to delete any thread you start. What we disagree on is whether you have the right.
And I doubt we'll settle that one way or another in this thread, so I'm gonna get back to work.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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My stance is that as long as we have the freedom we have here to post, then in order to maintain a level of discourse that does not drive away all but the thick-skinned and uninvested, the delete button is necessary.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Many normal behaviours here are rather rude. I weighed my options: I believed then and I believe now that I acted in the best interests of myself and the community. No one here profited from that thread.
I am sorry if I caused offence, but I did what I believed right using a means clearly granted to me as a right.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: I believed then and I believe now that I acted in the best interests of myself and the community. No one here profited from that thread.
I disagree. While I can understand why you didn't want your posts in that thread to continue to exist, the thread had ceased to have anything to do with them; it had moved on completely. The subjects that were being discussed were worthwhile to me, and I'd guess that they were at least marginally so to some of the other participants in the conversation.
I recognize that just deleting your posts from the thread wouldn't have accomplished your purpose, given that there were enough responses to you that it would have been possible to see your post in the negative space (so to speak). The ideal solution would have been to have Pop split the thread, leaving you able to delete the earlier, topic-focused stuff without clearing away the digression. I have no idea if the UBB software can handle that sort of thing, however.
[Edit--Thank you for responding, by the way. I was pretty angry about the deletion when you made it, but hearing why you'd chosen to do so definitely helped. Your motive was much more reasonable than the one I'd uncharitably ascribed to you.]
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: "It's rather rude, though."
Many normal behaviours here are rather rude. I weighed my options: I believed then and I believe now that I acted in the best interests of myself and the community. No one here profited from that thread.
I am sorry if I caused offence, but I did what I believed right using a means clearly granted to me as a right.
We also have the right to complain about whiny, self-centered people. Particularly since this isn't the first such thread. Hell, it isn't even the first this week, is it? Overall Hatrack had been fairly kind up to that point...far more than we usually are with most people.
Delete all you want...sometime it may even be the right thing to do. I think I have deleted two thread in about 5 years...and the first was an accident. But if it becomes a pattern (it hasn't, yet) then expect to get called on it.
You have the right...
...but that doesn't mean anyone here has to like it, or not complain about it, particularly since those type of self-centered thread are your bread and butter posts, Pel. You are rude most of the time, speaking down to people constantly, and with very little reason to do so. You have been called on it before, usually quite gently, and you have made it clear you don't care and that you have no intention of stopping doing so.
I don't care if you ARE in HS, you want to post in that manner, at least have the guts to face the music.
Or delete....the content will be just as enlightening for us, and won't clutter up the front page with all the drama.
I also think kat had every right to be upset....and that KoM was pretty cool to speak up here, so long after it happened. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: No one here profited from that thread.
No one profits from any of your whiny, self-indulgent threads. But that doesn't seem to stop you from posting them.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
What was it that OSC said a week or so ago? Ah, it was:
quote:Many people on this site are crazy and making stuff up. I am one of them. Being crazy and making stuff up is not a detriment to full participation on Hatrack.
I just thought that was funny and kind of fit here.
And I still think the easiest and most reasonable answer to all of this is to simply post a notice saying you're going to delete the thread in 24 hours or something. You could even request PJ to lock it, so there would be no more posts, but allow people to record theirs (though I think that then prevents you from deleting it). It won't please everybody, but it should keep from ticking everybody off.
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
". Particularly since this isn't the first such thread. Hell, it isn't even the first this week, is it?"
Um, I have no idea what you are talking about. I have started only a few threads this week, one on philosophy, one on the Texas election and the one I deleted. I think that is all.
"speaking down to people constantly"
I don't speak up or down, I just speak. Sometimes more loudly than others, sometimes more wisely than others. Indeed, I would say that my writing style is very objective toward my audience. I assume that that is part of criticisms I have heard about being "too academic," as academics view their audience objectively (well, actualy, they love any interested audience they can get, but they write objectively.)
"Pel has deleted multiple threads"
not true by almost any standard of the word "multiple."
"The ideal solution would have been to have Pop split the thread, leaving you able to delete the earlier, topic-focused stuff without clearing away the digression. I have no idea if the UBB software can handle that sort of thing, however."
I had not considered that, and I am not sure it can be done either.
If anyone has it archived, I have no objective to the posts on any tangents being created as a new thread.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Have you not deleted more than just that one thread? If not, I apologize.
As for splitting the thread, it can be done on every other BB I participate in. Not sure whether UBB allows it, but I imagine it does.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Let me just point out that your perception of your writing style is in disagreement with many people here.
Whether or not you think you're talking down to them, they will still react as though you are if that's how they perceive it.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I always figured that if you're unhappy with something you've written, that's what the edit button is for. If you're unhappy with what someone else has written, that's the price you pay for public discourse. You're free to ignore them.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by pH: Again MC, that's all kinds of easy to say when you aren't the kid being beaten up at recess.
-pH
Wait, who's getting beat up? It's a conversation.
If you want to interact with other people, they're not all going to agree with you.
From what I've experienced here, deleting a thread usually incurs more wrath than just ignoring the one that's already going on. Any time someone deletes a thread, 2 or 3 more pop up about how the thread was deleted and how people who delete threads are puppy kickers.
As far as I can see, deleting a thread just gets someone more attention, which is probably what they want anyway, if they're starting a bunch of Woe Is Me threads. Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
MC, believe me, a lot of what was said to me in the threads that I deleted was, to me, the equivalent of being beaten up. It HURT. It hurt a LOT. And I absolutely do not think it was rude of me to delete the threads. It's not about people agreeing or not agreeing. It's about people acting civilly.
posted
pH, does deleting the thread make the hurt go away? I'm not trying to downplay people's feelings being hurt, I know it happens, but how does deleting the thread make it any better? Maybe if the thread were still around, people could apologize, people could learn from their mistakes. Just something to consider.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
There are times it is necessary to be rude. Not as often as people seem to think these days, but sometimes it is better than letting yourself get walked on.
But most of the time it isn't self preservation, it is hubris that causes it.
Thread deletion isn't wrong, at least to me, but it should not be you patent, often-used response if you want to be taken seriously at Hatrack.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: pH, does deleting the thread make the hurt go away? I'm not trying to downplay people's feelings being hurt, I know it happens, but how does deleting the thread make it any better? Maybe if the thread were still around, people could apologize, people could learn from their mistakes. Just something to consider.
It makes you not have to look at it anymore. If the thread were still around (at least, this particular thread) no one would have ever apologized, as they were all having far too much fun treating me like trash. No one cared to learn from their mistakes in that instance. And yes, I'm still peeved about it, especially since I think that if people really wanted to learn from their mistakes, they might've figured it out already when I tried to explain instead of CONTINUING to pick on me. Of course, if other people had started threads to pick on me instead of doing it in my own threads, or even dragging up threads from months before in order to continue the bashing, THAT would have been for some reason over the line, whereas everything else was not. Why? I have no idea.
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: There are times it is necessary to be rude. Not as often as people seem to think these days, but sometimes it is better than letting yourself get walked on.
"Rudeness" is also a form of flattery. People are more comfortable breaking social display rules when in the company of friends whom they trust implicitly not to take the offending comment or line-cross or otherwise generally unnaceptable thing seriously. It's something i notice here on Hatrack, that people sometimes refuse (mostly because of the medium) to make a distinction in their interpretation of comments between friendly casual rudeness, and abrasive rudeness. I've done this myself.
I am always struck when talking to people for the first time, how some people are lacking in the ability to judge how familiar they should be with me. Often I will hold a comment against someone in my first impression of them, that I would have accepted as a quirk if I had known them better. Often a person's simple ability to understand the nature of the boundaries between us will make that person likeable- or not likeable. Whether someone is too reserved, or too willing to show their whole hand when dealing with me, I find myself learning a great deal about a person very quickly, and that is often the only impression I ever get. When I am forced to spend a greater amount of time with someone I immediately found to be personality deficient or tiresome or boring, my interactions have only solidified my initial opinions. I sometimes wonder if I should approach things differently, but I ussually find myself unable to suspend the workings of my own mind when meeting people- so I always end up judging.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I don't think rudeness is a form of flattery at all. I am usually rude in two instances....if I don't care at all about your opinion and am tired of you inflicting your opinions on me regardless, and if what I have to say mean more to me than the chance of offending you does.
I have gotten a lot better about both, and can usually remove myself without being rude, but those are the most common reasons for rudeness, IMO.
There is one more reason to be deliberately rude...s a literal "rude awakening". Sometimes being rude is a lesser of evils.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by pH: If the thread were still around (at least, this particular thread) no one would have ever apologized, as they were all having far too much fun treating me like trash.
I suppose if you feel that way about the people you're conversing with, it makes sense to delete the thread.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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