quote:Actually, I linked THAT PARTICULAR GROUP OF DEAF PEOPLE with Liberals. As someone who is married to a person very familiar with the deaf culture, that University is predomanantly liberal. Then again, I suppose saying that University of Berkley is a liberal University is also a grevious assumption?
Now you linked 'that particular group' with liberals. Had you used words such as 'only' or 'these specific liberals', the assumptions would not have been made. If you want to avoid such assumptions choose your words more carefully in the future. And your underlying point still would not stand as anything other than to reinforce your prexisting stereotypes.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Whatever Rakeesh. Assumptions, Assumptions everywhere. Where it stops nobody knows. As long as you can belittle the arguer rather than the argument then you win the day.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Occasional, this is sounding silly. So let's just stop making assumptions about each other's assumptions about our assumptions and get back to the issue, if that is OK.
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If my post is to be paid attention to beyond trying to score points against my ideology, then a question must be answered. How responsible are Liberals and Convervatives to what others of that "group" say and think?
It is one thing to talk like Rakeesh about a lone voice not representing others of similar political or social backgrounds. However, what Fred Phelps and Dickerson say are not held only by them. Lets get at least a little real: most people are not sophisticated enough to individualize members of a group. In fact, the media and politicians thrive on the easy stereotype either to make a story easier to understand or get more votes.
Of course, what this has to do with Dickerson is if she is right or wrong. If she is right, what does that mean for black and white relations (or black and black for that matter). If she is wrong, what (if anything and by whom) should be done?
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Yes. Quite a lot, actually.
My question was semi-rhetorical. I haven't gotten really interested in figuring out what the individual candidates stand for yet because a.) there are a lot of them and b.) it's a year to the primaries and I can't bring myself to care yet. Nevertheless, I do know a few things about Obama -- enough to form a positive first impression.
My comment, "Is there anything to know about Obama ASIDE from race?" was a more a statement of frustration. When asked the question, "Would you vote for a black candidate for president?" most would answer "Yes, a qualified black candidate." Yet we won't get past race to get to the heart of whether or not he's qualified. The media is buzzing about his color and whether or not his black color makes him BLACK?!?!? Good God, what is the world coming to?
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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It's ironic to me that African Americans fought so hard to be considered just as American as the rest of us, and now that they are, they immediately start saying who is part of "their little club."
Most African Americans with ancestors who were slaves have white blood in their lines as well, we might as well go back to the laws of segregation where if you were 1/6th black you were considered a full black under the law.
I went to a Mcdonalds and an African immigrant took my order, he clearly was not from America as his accent gave him away. If he sets up shop here and raises a family and gains citizenship should I say, "But you are not an African American, because that title is reserved for the children of slaves."
There are plenty of African immigrants who were never slaves that lived in the US, should we slight their descendants by giving them their own category?
I guess what I object to is that Obama has been treated like he was black growing up because he looks black. He married an African American woman (whose blackness is beyond dispute) are his children African American courtesy of their mother but he is not?
It just sounds so stupid in my head, and very elitist.
I suppose unless your ancestor was one of the immigrants that came sometime in the 1500's-1900 at the latest then you are not REALLY an American.
These rules and specifics in this instance just seem so trivial and ridiculous to me.
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I'm not understanding the thought process being described with whites supposedly patting themselves on the back for considering voting for a black candidate. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't vote and then go back and think, "Wow. I voted for a blonde. I'm clearly such a tolerant person because I was able to look past this person's blonde-ness." I mean, what people actually think that way?
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How did this suddenly become a thread about left/liberal bashing? Do you not realize that Stephen Colbert [and his audience] is pretty much as left/liberal as you can get???
Clearly, most liberals think this woman's statements were ridiculous... and that's probably why she was brought to the show... because she was being stupid.
I'm brown [and liberal], and from my personal experience, white conservatives and certain black groups [I really dont know how to classify them] are the most racist groups generally speaking.
To be clear, I'm not saying that all conservatives are racist or that no liberals are racist. What I'm saying is that if you took a random sample of 100 liberals and 100 conservatives, you'll find more racists in the conservative group... even though they might not realize it. It's often pretty difficult to identify racism until it's directed at you, and unfortunately [or fortunately] white people in this country don't have to deal with it except in certain black neighborhoods [and maybe in IT companies :)]
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Actually, I don't really know Stephen Colbert's true political leanings. Taking anything he says on The Colbert Report is probably a big mistake as a guideline to specific political beliefs, or even broad ones, except for a mistrust of mass media and dislike of the increasing trust in pundits in general.
Time will tell, should his show air while there is a socially and fiscally liberal Administration and Congress in power, what his show would become.
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quote:What I'm saying is that if you took a random sample of 100 liberals and 100 conservatives, you'll find more racists in the conservative group...
When I think of friends of mine who are liberal, and friends of mine who are conservative...I think back, and I come to the conclusion that there wasn't really much racism (that I could notice), but what there was was pretty evenly spread. I think if you took a sample of 100 liberals and 100 conservatives, and based your sample only on those two adjectives, and then actually examined the lives of those 200 people, you'd find much more in common than in contrast, outside of specific political issues.
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quote:I'm saying is that if you took a random sample of 100 liberals and 100 conservatives, you'll find more racists in the conservative group... even though they might not realize it.
I don't know if that's true. I imagine it's close to evenly spread across the spectrum, but when it's brought to their attention, more conservatives will find the issue tiresome and won't be bothered to think about it.
But hey, I make distinctions. I think that black people and white people are culturally two different kettle of fish, standing with two different views to our American institutions, availing the two groups to two different moral and legal blind spots.
I actually think that both groups could learn a lot from each other if they stop trying to pretend they are the same and use the other to sound out their deficiencies. I'm not race blind. I'm baffled that ninety percent of one race can vote one way, and have the President get elected from another, yet white people still say with a straight face that race doesn't matter.
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As to Dickerson's comment, my mom is South Carolina slave black and my Dad is Ghana black, and yes, I think that colors how they view making their way in white America, and sure, I wish Obama was as physically dark as Paul Robeson, but this business is a continuum and if he is culturally black enough to be considered black and culturally white enough so that white people don't find him objectionable, then so be it.
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[QUOTE] Does anywhere else in the world refer to their black citizens with titles like "African-(nationality)". Like African-French, African-Australian, African-Russian/QUOTE] Yes. The U.K. uses Afro-British or, more commonly, Afro-Caribean British.
All people living in the U.S. today are either immigrants or the descedents of immigrants with one exception: Native Americans, who were not even granted citizensip until the 1920s.
I aprove of the term African American much more than I do "White" or "Black," which is all about color.
It would be naive to assume that people do not notice skin color in this country, they do. I do, and I wasn't even alive at a time when there was segregation in this country.
America should embrace the fact that its citizens come from all over the world. I say, the more hyphenated Americans the better. Our culture is made richer by this. I have a friend who is Greek-Dutch-American, another who is German-Mexican-Jewish Converso-American, another who is Roma-Hispanic-American, yet another who is Indian-Portugese-African-American. As for myself, I am a descedent of Basque settlers in Ireland, Irishmen of both faiths, Scotsmen, Ulster Scots and Alsation draft dodgers. Some members of my family came to this country before the Mayflower, others came in the late 19th century. I am just as American as Sen. Obama and no more so.
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My brother in law's own siblings don't consider him "black enough." He loves going to museums and plays and artsy films, therefore he is pretending to be white. I actually thought that was one of the most racists statements I could imagine, equating a disinterest in intellectual pursuits as a black trait. My brother in law seemed to take it as a normal view he had heard often. So, I am not that suprised that some people are not wanting to let Obama be "black."
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I feel, as an outsider looking in, that there is a lot to Tom's comment that this is about not wanting to let go of a victimised, minority position. And I find that unspeakably sad.
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quote: more conservatives will find the issue tiresome and won't be bothered to think about it
I think there's good reason for this. I frequently hear bemoanings of racism and the harshness of the black experience, but I'm not sure what I'm expected to do about it. I feel like I'm not racist, I don't contribute to racism, and the handful of times I've heard racist comments I've called the person on it. Beyond that, I'm not sure what I could do.
Further, I think putting things in terms of racial problems leads to this attitude and doesn't create positive change. I think that most racial problems are essentially socio-cultural problems and that an effective way to try to create change is to focus on fighting povery and increasing access to education for all Americans, rather than one subset of them. This also appears to be Obama's approach.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: It's ironic to me that African Americans fought so hard to be considered just as American as the rest of us, and now that they are, they immediately start saying who is part of "their little club."
It's worth noting that there isn't a single voice that speaks for the people you are (I think) referring to. We've had discussions here about how dismissive it is to say "Republicans think" or "conservatives say," especially since many of the Republicans and/or conservatives here don' think or say things in a monolithic way. Same goes for individual African-Americans, I expect.
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quote:I'm baffled that ninety percent of one race can vote one way, and have the President get elected from another, yet white people still say with a straight face that race doesn't matter.
Like I've said before, to you, and on Hatrack, when a candidate comes along that represents my views, he/she will get my vote. As no black candidates have come along that fit that mold, they haven't gotten my vote. Is that my fault, or is it the fault of black politicians that don't share my views? Or is it neither of our faults?
I think there is a difference, not necessarily between black and white as a race, but from white cultures and black cultures. Notice how I pluralize, becuase there is no one white culture. I have no idea what black cultures there may or may not be, I live in white suburbia. But anyone who assumes white culture is one giant bloc is ignorantly stereotyping.
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quote:I feel, as an outsider looking in, that there is a lot to Tom's comment that this is about not wanting to let go of a victimised, minority position. And I find that unspeakably sad.
I'm curious as to how Obama is going to handle this. I mean, whites are going to say, "Diversity programs? Affirmative Action? We have a black president. That's proof that these programs are outdated," while blithely highering and admitting douche bag cousins, nephews, family friends, church friends, and people who 'look the part' expecting non-whites are too stupid to notice. There is a decent article in today's Sun Times about the Gores and Frists bumbling their way to dynasties on the strength of money and fancy connections.
All that said, it's really an interesting time to be black. I look at my parents generation, and they were scared of white people, and when they were growing up, open disdain could get you shot or arrested and it certainly precluded you from working. White people worry about driving around in black ghettos, at least you all avoid ghettos. Pissed off whites can get you at work, on the street, they can even get warrants and do a home invasion with the entire Justice system supporting them.
For my mother, there were certain safe jobs for blacks, and if they kept their mouths shut and went into those fields, they could get on without having to worry about the queerly bureaucratic brand of mercurial white backlash. Stoop a little, don't make eye contact and respect the suit and you'll do fine in this wide land. The kicker, of course, is that if you wanted to climb, you had to pledge fealty to the same system of mores that kept you in chains. You had to ignore that the "progress" in American policy was contingent and piecemeal. Ignore that the same people who have grudgingly accepted women, then blacks as people are going to make Latinos dance the same dance under a different name because cheap, humble labor is a beautiful thing.
I'm curious to see how Obama is going to unify America, when unify means that white people give up some stability, liberty, status, mores and money.
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Middle class white Americans don't necessarily have much money or status to worry about giving up.
You're talking about richy rich white people, who are as different from me as black Americans in the ghetto are.
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quote:while blithely highering and admitting douche bag cousins, nephews, family friends, church friends, and people who 'look the part' expecting non-whites are too stupid to notice.
This is so completely at odds with my experiences in corporate America that it feels untrue. I work at a company that does legal placement and in that field being a minority is a major asset to gaining employment.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:So let's just stop making assumptions about each other's assumptions about our assumptions and get back to the issue, if that is OK.
You're assuming that we're assuming that it's okay to stop making assumptions about each other's assumptions about our assumptions on the issue. I don't think it's appropriate to assume that we can assume that's it's okay to stop making assumptions about each other's assumptions about our assumptions on the issue. I assume.
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It seems reasonable for U.S. slave-descended blacks to think that Obama, having grown up in a different culture from theirs, would be no more sympathetic to their concerns than the average liberal white president. Of course, they should balance this possibility with the progress that having any person of color be president would represent.
I agree that most whites probably do not know that Obama is descended from a Kenyan immigrant rather than U.S. slaves (I didn't until this controversy started). But you can't help but think that Obama would have had a tougher time with whites if he had been darker-skinned, regardless of his ancestry.
Posts: 781 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Why the crap is this an issue? It's not like Obama is claiming to be more or less "black" than anyone else. He's not running on a platform of "Hey look! I'm black!" So why would someone even think it was relevant to question his level of "blackness"?
Of course, it would be hilarious if, for the first time in history, someone was denied the presidency because he wasn't black enough ...
But in the real world, I'd love it if we could just try and elect the best leader for our country, regardless of how "black" or "white" he is or is not.
Yes, it would be fun to have a black president. It could break down barriers, and open a lot of new doors. So could a female president. So could a Mormon president. But no matter whom we elect, the oppressed-minority novelty is going to wear off in about 2 months, and then we'll be stuck with the same person for another 46. Let's hope we base our voting decision on our expectations for the last 46 months, and not for the first 2 Posts: 1539 | Registered: Jul 2004
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What about a president in his early 20's (with a Constitutional amendment of course), from the mean upper-middle white class suburbs of Detroit?
It'll break down that age barrier that's plagued us for so long.
Vote Lyrhawn for a better America. Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by scholar: My brother in law's own siblings don't consider him "black enough." He loves going to museums and plays and artsy films, therefore he is pretending to be white. I actually thought that was one of the most racists statements I could imagine, equating a disinterest in intellectual pursuits as a black trait. My brother in law seemed to take it as a normal view he had heard often. So, I am not that suprised that some people are not wanting to let Obama be "black."
I got something like this from a security guard when I was in high school. People can be so... MORONIC!
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I'm an east african refugee, and even I've had my blackness (for lack of a better term) repeatedly questioned by both blacks and whites. The problem is that the term "black" in America is supposed convey a certain manner of speaking and attitude, and if Barack Obama adhered to this and talked like Al Sharpton, no one would be questioning his blackness despite his non-connection to African American heritage.
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So they want people to behave a like a stereotype to prove their blackness? Do whites have to prove their whiteness like this? I just don't get it!
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Barack Obama actually mentioned that in his keynote speech to the DNC -- the one where the snowball began to grow.
" Children can't achieve unless we raise their expectations and turn off the television sets and eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white."
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: It's ironic to me that African Americans fought so hard to be considered just as American as the rest of us, and now that they are, they immediately start saying who is part of "their little club."
It's worth noting that there isn't a single voice that speaks for the people you are (I think) referring to. We've had discussions here about how dismissive it is to say "Republicans think" or "conservatives say," especially since many of the Republicans and/or conservatives here don' think or say things in a monolithic way. Same goes for individual African-Americans, I expect.
Oh agreed completely. But this is not the first time I have been exposed to the, "Obama is not really black" sentiment. Alan Keyes has been saying it a long time, and I was surprised to read a NYT's article where it spoke of several political rallies with Obama as the speaker and how the Whites in the audience adored him but Blacks seemed reserved in acknoledging him at all.
Now I could be wrong and this is all anecdotal evidence but I just have not been exposed to a "pro Obama" sentiment from African American sources. But your point is taken, I would not presume to know the entire spectrum concerning this matter, in fact I hope I am wrong in this instance.
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I think you've hit the nail on the head. The problem with Aboriginal Reconciliation in Australia is always that giving up something - even something symbolic - seems to claw back so many good intentions. Its impossible to heal something like that without everyone being willing to give.
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I think the real problem here is that he doesn't really look very "black". He looks more...Mediterranean.
I'm kidding about that being the real problem, by the way. Except for the haircut, it isn't his appearence that's the problem.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: It's ironic to me that African Americans fought so hard to be considered just as American as the rest of us, and now that they are, they immediately start saying who is part of "their little club."
...
These rules and specifics in this instance just seem so trivial and ridiculous to me.
My family, and hundreds of other families date back to the first colonies in this country. I'm a twelfth generation American from a Massachusetts family that came from Northern England. I ask no special privileges or distinctions from other Americans, some of whom are 2nd and 3rd generations with strong ties to the old countries.
Yet, I hear from my half Japanese friend that she has trouble distinguishing herself between the generations of Japanese in America, that actually have NAMES attached to them as whole groups, because part of her family goes back in America as far as mine does. The labels seem to be pretty cumbersome, especially in her case, since they have nothing to do with how or where she was raised.
She has told me that some Japanese Americans ask for specific information about her generation, when they came here and why. On the other hand, white, black, and hispanic Americans often simply ask where she is "from," which is taken to mean where her family (the Asian part) is from.
I've been at a UC school for four years, where the student population is largely Asian American. I've been told or asked what Asian country a person's family comes from countless times. I don't off hand recall a single instance of someone asking me about my family in such a way. I think people assume a lot based simply on my waspy appearance, but they're right!
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IIRC, the generation specific labels aren't really 'names' per se; issei, nisei, etc. just mean 'first generation,' 'second generation,' and so on.
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The President can't unify America anyway, if that means "make people stop venomous invective." And a good thing; I don't want our government to have that much power.
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I've never understoon why it;s considered rude or disrepectful to ask about someone's heritage. Personally when I ask someone of Asian descent where they are from, initially I mean where in America, if they are from the Detroit area or not.
If I want to know what nationality they are I'll ask something more specific maybe like "Where's your family from originally?" Sometimes when I'm with a group of friends or at work, almost all white people, we'll get to talking about where our ancestors came from and we'll ask each other where we came from 'originally' and there's nothing offensive about it at all.
Two things on this. 1. When I ask where someone is from like that, it's because I'm curious about what sort of family heritage and history they might still have from their ancestors. I love that sort of thing, it's fascinating to hear, and I like learning about other cultures first hand. 2. Quite frankly, whenever I see anyone in America who isn't white, I just assume they are American, especially black and Asian people. I assume they speak English, I assume they grew up here. America is so multicultural and multiracial, it just makes sense to me to do so.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: It's ironic to me that African Americans fought so hard to be considered just as American as the rest of us, and now that they are, they immediately start saying who is part of "their little club."
...
These rules and specifics in this instance just seem so trivial and ridiculous to me.
My family, and hundreds of other families date back to the first colonies in this country. I'm a twelfth generation American from a Massachusetts family that came from Northern England. I ask no special privileges or distinctions from other Americans, some of whom are 2nd and 3rd generations with strong ties to the old countries.
Yet, I hear from my half Japanese friend that she has trouble distinguishing herself between the generations of Japanese in America, that actually have NAMES attached to them as whole groups, because part of her family goes back in America as far as mine does. The labels seem to be pretty cumbersome, especially in her case, since they have nothing to do with how or where she was raised.
She has told me that some Japanese Americans ask for specific information about her generation, when they came here and why. On the other hand, white, black, and hispanic Americans often simply ask where she is "from," which is taken to mean where her family (the Asian part) is from.
I've been at a UC school for four years, where the student population is largely Asian American. I've been told or asked what Asian country a person's family comes from countless times. I don't off hand recall a single instance of someone asking me about my family in such a way. I think people assume a lot based simply on my waspy appearance, but they're right!
See but I just have not had that experience. When I am in a social setting even in Utah people often ask "Where are you from." Even if I was from Utah they would want to know the town/city. If I was from out of state they would want to see if perhaps we had a mutual acquaintance.
In my case I have to say "Well I was born in Provo Utah, but I left when I was 3 days old, I mostly grew up on Hong Kong, so I guess you could say I am from there."
BANG! The moment they hear Hong Kong they want to know everything about why my family was there, was my dad in the military? Do I speak Chinese/Japanese? etc.
On several occasions I have had people tell me that I am not as "American" as they are because I did not grow up here, disregarding the fact I came to the US every summer growing up and I went to an American run school. They thought it was hilarious that my American geography was not as good as theirs, whereas I thought it was retarded that when I said I was from Hong Kong they would ask if I spoke Japanese.
In China if a little kid said, "Hey its a big nose American/foreigner" I would respond, "How long have you lived in China?" Obviously as children anywhere from 3-13 years. I'd say, "I've lived in China for 11 years, so that makes me more Chinese then you. They'd giggle and insist that my logic was flawed and that I was not Chinese.
Alot of folks who grew up like I did have this situation and I've even heard people like me described as, "Third Culture Kids." Go ahead and google it, its the first result.
I consider myself as American as anybody else in this country, in fact, I do not think one can truly appreciate this country until they spend sometime outside of it and know what they lose by so doing.
People assume things all the time, THAT does not bother me, its the fact that people feel threatened when somebody wants to associate with them, and they feel that some sort of cultural integrity is threatened by this.
"They're a house negro because he/she spends their time reading books"
"He's not descended from slaves, so he is not really black."
"He immigrated here, so he is not a real American."
"Your white, and you were born here but you grew up overseas so your loyalty to America is inferior to mine."
It's all disgusting to me.
Orincoro: My ancestors on my fathers side first settled in Massachusetts too I'm directly descended from a guy who kept alot of journals named William Bradford, you might know of him Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I am descended from a man who pushed his girlfriend down the stairs, thought she was dead, and took off from England to America.
I remember telling that story when I was going to a prep school in New York, and we did one of those ancestry reports. Everyone was a Mayflower descendant.
I think it is human of us to categorize, for whatever reason we do it. I just hope that if a black man is elected president of this country, that this argument becomes a dead issue, and we all rejoice in how far we've come, while acknowledging how much further we have to go.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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quote:It's ironic to me that African Americans fought so hard to be considered just as American as the rest of us, and now that they are, they immediately start saying who is part of "their little club."
This may be a difference in perception. I thought we fought hard to change America into something better. The other America, we were cool to let burn.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote: The other America, we were cool to let burn.
No you were not, Black units, despite worse prejudice then you have ever faced did their duty in WW II, driving armor into the Nazi heart. They fought in Korea and in Viet Nam, again in times when things where not so fair. You disgrace them by speaking of letting things burn.
quote: "I know that I haven't spent a lot of time learning the ways of Washington. But I've been there long enough to know that the ways of Washington must change.
we learned to disagree without being disagreeable
Each and every time, a new generation has risen up and done what's needed to be done. Today we are called once more, and it is time for our generation to answer that call”
B Hussein Obama
Barrack needs to work on making his platitudes rhyme and then he will be embraced as black by the Jesse Jackson crowd.
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I'm directly descended from a guy who kept alot of journals named William Bradford, you might know of him 
