quote:Mostly its not so much a direct "not allow God," but it is about Him leaving the humans to their own devices when they have rejected Him. & To be honest, those you call innocent victims are not seen that way by the Christians who send these messages.
Depending on how Occasional meant the phrase "innocent victims", I don't think it necessarily follows that the people thinking (not actually sending out videos like this, that's an entirely different can of worms) this are loathesome, repugnant people.
It's one thing to believe that if human beings eject God from their daily lives, he will not shield human beings as much from themselves as he formerly did. It is quite another to believe that God will specifically send sick college students to smite some random people if some other random people reject God from their daily lives.
The first is a belief I do not share, one I find distasteful and unChristian. I believe that God is with us whether we reject him or not; I don't believe God is as easily ejected as the people behind the video seem to feel. But it is not necessarily "loathsome and repugnant"--and I note that Tom has not said that belief is, I'm just pointing something out here.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Well, most Christians (as far as I understand) don't believe anyone is innocent unless they have faith in Christ. This is especially the case with the Christians we are talking about where Faith is the only thing that saves. Therefore, logically, if you aren't showing your faith on your sleave at all times then you aren't showing faith, as your actions indicated your saved condition.
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quote:Well, most Christians don't believe anyone is innocent unless they have faith in Christ.
This Christian doesn't believe anyone is truly innocent in the way you mean it, and that it takes the sacrifice of Christ to overcome this flaw.
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Those Christians--and I assume you count yourself in that number--find nonbelievers loathesome and repugnant?
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I don't, depending on who it is, but I believe I understand enough about the Christians we are talking about to say they do.
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'Depending on who it is'? You didn't have any qualifiers before...so who do think think is loathsome and repugnant, Occasional?
Setting aside the fact that to find nonbelievers loathsome and repugnant is about as hypocritical and unChristlike as one can be...
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I don't want to watch an angry video but I do "buy into" the idea that society has a tremendous influence on children. You can consider the language of US-born children of immigrants. They usually not only speak English even if Mom and Dad do not but they speak it with the accent of the region, rather than their parents'.
If parents' values and society's values get into a fight there is no guarantee that the parents' will win. I think if parents always won there would be very few gangs.
I also "buy" that God is not to blame when people don't do what He says.
However I do not "buy" that school shootings result from a societal rejection of God. The school shooters don't give a damn what society rejects or doesn't. If they did, they'd follow what society says about shooting people at school, which is "don't." School shootings result from the killer's rejection of God, society, ethics, and everything else that says don't do this.
The trouble is that we now have a script floating in our consciousness about what a young man can do if he feels oppressed. Almost nobody wants to do it, but for those who are willing to kill innocent people and themselves, it is there in their minds, and occasionally somebody will be crazy enough to do it.
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I have a friend who sends me stuff like that a LOT. A lot of spam in general, which I usually ignore (or if it is related to some bogus health scare or something serious, I send her a Snopes link).
I can't even tell you how much I hate getting stuff like that, but I never say anything to her. Mainly because she has brain damage and some short-term memory loss, and so would most likely forget I said anything unless I was really mean about it. Which I am not willing to do.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I'm incline to agree with Dan_Raven's comments on the first page of this discussion. God IS ALLOWED in secular schools, students are allowed to pray in school, they are allowed to read the Bible in school, they are allowed to form Christian 'study' groups in school. What is not allowed is for the school to force these actions onto the students with no regard for the fact that certain students might be atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Shinto, Hindu, other non-Christian or unique Christian variations.
It is not the job of the school to teach, or more accurately force, certain preferred religious beliefs on a likely diverse student population. That's why we have Sunday School, that is why we have Church service, that is why kids have parents.
I'm reminded of another discussion in this group with a link to a video of a student who came home and announced to his parents that he was an Atheist. The mother freak out and screamed, 'that's it, we are going to church every Sunday'. And I thought, 'you mean you not already going to church every Sunday?'
When the mother saw this tact was having no effect on her son, she changed course and said, 'no more Christmas presents for you, because that's what Christmas is all about'. And I though, with parents like these, it's no wonder the kid is an atheist.
What people seem to forget is that 'Faith' is not 'Blind Faith', it is concerned questioning pondering wondering seeking sometimes uncertain Faith. If you have never sought the answers to faith, if you have never questioned it, then I don't think you can truly say you have arrived at the answers of faith.
What many fundamentalist fail to see, is that 'Faith' is a journey, and each person comes to faith on their own path and after a long journey. I can tell Islamic fundamentalist this with absolute certainty, faith does not come from the barrel of a gun. Neither does faith come from being beaten into submission by threats and intimidation of fundamentalist Christian rhetoric.
You can force people to come into compliance, but they will only discover true faith on their own; in their own way and in their own time. I've often said that truth, wisdom, understanding, and faith never come from explanation, they only come from revelation, they come from inside you.
So, I'm back to blaming it on the parents. In our busy high stress suburban wasteland lives, it is far easier to fob off every responsibility on the school. Parents don't have the time, energy, will, or fortitude to put sex into a proper and reasonable real-life perspective for their kids, so they let the school do it, only they DON'T let the school do it.
The twist and turn and try to control the schools actions to the point where those teaching Sex Ed simply have their hands tied. That is, assuming they aren't already so twisted with good Christian guilt, that they are reasonable able to do the job if they were allowed.
Then, after hamstring the people to whom we have fobbed off this responsibility, we complain endlessly that they are doing an inadequate job of it.
Here's a thought, how about having the pastor of your church give a reasonable, accurate, balanced, complete, open perspective class on sex education that contains a reasonable balance of moral perspective and natural biological functions, as well as a perspective on the very real and necessary precautions?
Well, that is not going to happen, because the pastor is most likely so filled with good old Christian guilt and shame, that even he doesn't have a balanced perspective on the moral aspects and natural biological functions of sex.
Now let me address an extremely Hot Button issue to show how warped and self-serving the Christian social perspective is. The issue is Abortion. I'm here to tell you that Abortion is not a problem, it has never been a problem, and it never will be a problem. But it is far easier for Christians to focus on Abortion that it is for them to overcome the shame and quilt associated with dealing with the real problem.
Pregnancy is the real problem. Eliminate unwanted pregnancy and all the abortion clinics will close and go out of business. And here is another news bulletin for all of you, we know what causes pregnancy and we know many many methods for preventing it, only one of which is 'don't do it'.
If you gave kids a fair and balance sex education that had a very real and realistic NON-religious moral perspective, then unwanted teen pregnancy would drop to nearly nothing. Specialty abortion clinics would have very little business and they would close, thereby leaving the small remaining issue to family doctors and hospitals.
Having listened to this long rant, you will be surprised to find that I am against abortion, but at the same time Pro-Choice. I firmly believe that it is a woman's choice, I just believe it is the wrong choice.
I further believe that, beyond a certain point, if you have not made a choice, that lack of choice is in itself a choice. If you have avoided the issue of your pregnancy for more than three months THAT IS a very real choice, and further it is a choice that, not matter how sad it makes you, you must now live with.
Choice is not open ended, and no choice, whether you like it or not, is INDEED a very REAL choice.
All freedoms have boundaries. Freedom of speech has reasonable and legal boundaries. Freedom to bear arms has reasonable and legal boundaries. And relative to abortion, choice has reasonable and legal boundaries, 'choice' is not unlimited.
My point here is to show how hopelessly warp and filled with avoidance of the true issues most of the Christian fundamentalist are. There are very real and practical answers to the questions and issues of the day, but distraction, misdirection, avoidance, guilt, shame, hate, spite, vilification are not any of the answers.
Not trying to start an abortion debate, but I still say pregnancy is the real issue, if you can avoid that problem, then the abortions issue solves itself.
quote:Here's a thought, how about having the pastor of your church give a reasonable, accurate, balanced, complete, open perspective class on sex education that contains a reasonable balance of moral perspective and natural biological functions, as well as a perspective on the very real and necessary precautions?
Well, that is not going to happen, because the pastor is most likely so filled with good old Christian guilt and shame, that even he doesn't have a balanced perspective on moral aspects and natural biological functions of sex.
I've done it. Including handing around various birth control devices for the kids to see and walking them past the local Planned Parenthood clinic so they'd know where it was. (That particular PP office doesn't provide abortions, btw, but they do provide confidential and sliding fee scale exams, STD testing, BC, and rape/assault treatment.)
And I am *gasp* a pastor!
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Now let me address an extremely Hot Button issue to show how warped and self-serving the Christian social perspective is. The issue is Abortion. I'm here to tell you that Abortion is not a problem, it has never been a problem, and it never will be a problem. But it is far easier for Christians to focus on Abortion that it is for them to overcome the shame and quilt associated with dealing with the real problem.
If you're "not trying to start an abortion discussion", then you really shouldn't make bigoted, false statements like this one.
"To be honest, those you call innocent victims are not seen that way by the Christians who send these messages. At best these victims are simply caught in the crossfire of religious war."
The following is based not on fact but on my beliefs:
I'm sorry, but that beliefs of theirs, in my view, is evil, anti-Christian, and the antithesis of the actions of any God that deserves worship.
It shows a terrible human evil, the ability to say "you deserve it because people acted this way, regardless of your own personal beliefs, regardless of your own personal actions." It shows a lack of empathy that would cause Jesus to puke. Sorry, but if Satan is influencing anyone, it's those who believe such trash.
I'm not saying you believe this, or attacking you, just to make that clear. The ideas you're showing you understand, and explaining to me, are abhorrent to me, and they seem anti-human, anti-justice, and anti-Christian.
"Its more than that. By refusing to openly and without reserve acknowledge God, then to these Christians it is as if God is not getting taught. As such, the morality that goes along with teaching about God is creating situations like VT where evil can flourish. I don't think I can explain this anymore for you to understand, but you aren't living in the same worldview as these people. "
I think I can understand. But every time I try to I feel utterly sick. It's revolting to me.
It's illogical. (At least when you start with the premises I do. They start with different ones, and so our logical frameworks are incompatible.) Like the innocent victims necessarily had anything to do with it. How many were Christians? Did they deserve to die, for the sins of others, because they're in the wrong place, based on that view?
I mean, I understand the view that by not acknowledging God within school openly, it can seem that God is not being taught, like it's being rejected. But that's too simple a response, it's just not... accurate, in the actual God-given reality.
"Mostly its not so much a direct "not allow God," but it is about Him leaving the humans to their own devices when they have rejected Him."
That does make sense, it's not necessarily a bad theory. But in actual God-given reality, it doesn't matter if you're Christian or not, you're left to your own devices either way. God doesn't pop in with a Deus Ex Machina to save Christians, he never has. Never. And most of the miracles I've ever heard of aren't any more valid, or any more true, than the pseudoscience junk that does similar "things."
In the end, my worldview IS different. Irrevocably so, it seems. I try to see reality, even in my faith. And the God I worship does seem to be different than theirs. I believe mine is the true Christian God, they believe their monsterous tyrant-king is. You can see my bias. I have it, I know I do, I'll never not have it. But to me, God is not an evil being, and maybe that's my own faulty beliefs. Maybe its' okay to worship a being who does evil as I see it. But, I'll stick to my gut, and worship God as I can see Him.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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DKW - I had some additional thoughts that I wanted to send you, but your HotMail address is rejecting my email which is being sent from a Yahoo address.
- - - - - - - - - - - 65.54.244.xxx does not like recipient. Remote host said: 550 Requested action not taken: mailbox unavailable Giving up on 65.54.244.xxx. - - - - - - - - - - -
I think you would find my comments worthwhile and might even be able to use them.
If you could provide me with a working email address I will forward the comments. They seem too far off the main subject to post here, though I have posted similar comments in other topic discussions.
To email me, click on my username at the left of any of my comments, and that will take you to my profile. From my profile you can send me an email with your personal email address.
I solemnly swear this is a civilized exchange, and there will be NO stalking, NO harassment, or any other form of ill-conceived or ill-advised communication.
I greatly admire what you are doing at your church, and further you seem to be doing an excellent job of it. I just wish more churches could do something like this, and do it so well.
posted
Sorry, people were responding while I was writing my other comments.
To Rakeesh:
My comments are neither 'bigoted' nor 'false', but I will readily admit they are also not absolute. That is, they do not define each and every Christian living on this earth. They represent a fair and reasonable generalization as well as my own fair and reasonable beliefs based on the world as I see it.
There are many Christian groups that are against abortion while simultaneously against Sex Education. If not hypocritical, that is at least an impractical position. They want to shutdown abortion clinics and I gave them the perfect way to do it. That way is to solve the problem, rather than rail against one solution.
This is a clear case of avoiding the problem by distraction and misdirection, standard fundamentalist techniques by the way. Stop unwanted pregnancy and abortion clinics fade into obscurity. Simple as that.
Now all you have to do is be willing to face the very real and practical aspects of stopping unwanted pregnancy. Something the fundamentalist Christians are failing at in astronomical fashion.
posted
Steve, the hotmail address should work now. It was frozen because I hadn't logged in in the last month.
However, that was a program I have done in the past, not one I'm currently doing. I'm in a multi-staff church now and I work mainly with the adults. I'm still interested in hearing your thoughts, and I could pass them on to my colleagues if there's something that would enhance what they're doing on this topic.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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If school shootings happened because society has rejected God, then shouldn't we see more of them in societies that are even more secular than the US. If there were any validity to such arguments at all, shouldn't there be regular school shootings in France where even wearing a cross or a head scarf to school is banned?
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:My comments are neither 'bigoted' nor 'false', but I will readily admit they are also not absolute. That is, they do not define each and every Christian living on this earth. They represent a fair and reasonable generalization as well as my own fair and reasonable beliefs based on the world as I see it.
It seems to me that saying:
quote:Now let me address an extremely Hot Button issue to show how warped and self-serving the Christian social perspective is. The issue is Abortion. I'm here to tell you that Abortion is not a problem, it has never been a problem, and it never will be a problem. But it is far easier for Christians to focus on Abortion that it is for them to overcome the shame and quilt associated with dealing with the real problem.
This statement is arguably bigoted, and verifiably false. To many Christians, abortion is the killing of an infant. That's a problem, Blue Wizard. If a firefighter tries to extinguish a burning building, do you go to him and say, "You know, if you weren't so warped and self-serving, you'd really be out there working to install more smoke-detectors, fire alarms, etc. etc."
Now, then. I note that you used the phrase 'fundamentalist Christians' many times...but you didn't use it in the quote. In that quote, you also used the phrase 'Christian social perspective'. Now normally, I would be inclined to think a poster just left off the 'f' word by mistake. It happens all the time. But you were quite specific elsewhere, and didn't forget to use it throughout the rest of your post, Blue Wizard.
If you were in fact speaking about fundamentalist Christians in the portion I quoted, perhaps you should choose your words more carefully.
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