quote:You don't happen to work for a credit card company, do you?
Nope. And financial decisions are usually the last ones that kids learn to handle. But I've known far too many parents (mine included) who think they know how and when a kid should study for a given class, even when the parents know literally nothing about the subject.
Not everybody who has kids learns how to be a parent. I hang out with social workers often enough to know how bad some people are. But even fairly normal adults can be very inept when it comes to empathizing with kids, and some even go as far as to suggest that empathy is not necessary to discipline kids.
This goes back to something in the intro to Ender's Game. Kids don't think of themselves as kids in the same way that adults tend to think about kids. Lots of adults think of kids as being less genuine people than adults, and that taints their actions with condescension.
People who use excessively harsh punishment seem to forget that they are supposed to be helping the kid. You can't just say after the fact that "it was for his own good." That is usually a lie. You have to ask yourself beforehand what course of action is best for the kid.
Next month a friend of mine will become an Eagle Scout. When he was 11 and joined our troop, he was a lying troublemaker and often seemed to be a kleptomaniac. He's still wild, but is worthy of being an Eagle Scout. Over the years, the adults in our troop have all pretty much abandoned him as a lost cause. It has been up to the scouts to handle him and make him into a better person. In the past few months, as he wrapped up his Eagle project and his last merit badges, the adults around him have been forced to re-evaluate him. Without ever inflicting physical pain, his friends and peers have raised him to be a better man than his elders ever expected. If a bunch of kids can accomplish this in my troop and troops all over the world, why do some adults still think that spanking and beating is their last resort? It is never the only option for disciplining a person who can think for himself.
Posts: 145 | Registered: Apr 2007
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I like your method of discipline; can I put you on the spot to provide an example for me?
Ideally, how would you discipline a child that has a problem with screaming and whining? Say this child is around...urmmm...four years old, and that the problem has been existent since age two.
quote:I am no exagerating when I say that a child that does not learn to submit to his/her parents will could die.
That seems like an awful way of putting that sentiment to me. Are you trying to say that children should learn to trust their parents judgement or is it really submission that you think is the important part here?
I mean that if a child does not submit to a parents rule to say, "Don't go off alone down the street without telling me," they could end up dead in many different ways.
I believe children must first learn to submit to their parents before the wisdom of the best parents rules can become apparent to them.
quote:But I've known far too many parents (mine included) who think they know how and when a kid should study for a given class, even when the parents know literally nothing about the subject.
I'm not sure why you think one has to do with another; subject matter knowledge doesn't mean much when talking about studying habits or methods.
Knowing when and how your child learns best is important to their education. For example, my son cannot study on an empty stomach. So he gets a snack when he gets home, and then goes to study.
WHAT he's studying doesn't matter; I can't diagram a sentence to save my life, but I still know that for him, in order to diagram a sentence correctly, he needs something in his belly.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:I believe children must first learn to submit to their parents before the wisdom of the best parents rules can become apparent to them.
If a kid is too young to have developed a trust for the parents' advice, then the parents should still be supervising the kid directly. We can teach young kids to have faith in Jesus, so we ought to be able to teach them to have faith in their parent's judgement. Even when a young kid decides to disobey his parents, he will be afraid regardless of whether he knows why his parents made that rule.
You can't demand authority and expect to get respect, too. Parents have to earn respect just like everybody else. If you raise a child to respect authority for authority's sake, you will raise a child incapable of making an objective decision.
quote:Knowing when and how your child learns best is important to their education. For example, my son cannot study on an empty stomach. So he gets a snack when he gets home, and then goes to study.
That's a good example of what most parents are good at. But my parents still haven't learned that flash cards don't help with abstract math. And few parents pay attention to my education like my parents have. Most parents assume that their kids are getting a good education, because they'd rather not think about the alternatives. Yesterday, I was hired to tutor a girl who is nearly flunking her high school math class. Her father didn't even know the teacher's name. That's Negligent.
Posts: 145 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:I believe children must first learn to submit to their parents before the wisdom of the best parents rules can become apparent to them.
If a kid is too young to have developed a trust for the parents' advice, then the parents should still be supervising the kid directly. We can teach young kids to have faith in Jesus, so we ought to be able to teach them to have faith in their parent's judgement. Even when a young kid decides to disobey his parents, he will be afraid regardless of whether he knows why his parents made that rule.
You can't demand authority and expect to get respect, too. Parents have to earn respect just like everybody else. If you raise a child to respect authority for authority's sake, you will raise a child incapable of making an objective decision.
Forgive me but I am not entirely sure what you are trying to say. I am having trouble comprehending what the point you are trying to get across is.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Encouraging submission is a generally poor way of ensuring compliance. What often gets taught is avoiding getting caught, not obedience. Trust (coupled with a desire not to let the parents down) is a much more effective way of doing this.
quote:I mean that if a child does not submit to a parents rule to say, "Don't go off alone down the street without telling me,"
Submission qua submission is not necessary for compliance to this rule. Trusting the parents works even better.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:I believe children must first learn to submit to their parents before the wisdom of the best parents rules can become apparent to them.
I disagree.
When we tell the kids not to do something, we give them the reason why. I believe that reasoning with children, even when they're almost too young to understand your reasons, leads them to trust you.
I cannot emphasize the importance of parent-child trust enough. It is almost synonymous, I think, with love.
Now, my kids may choose not to believe my reasons; and they may question my reasons more than many other children do for their parents. But I have faith ( ) that reasoning with them will build them up in a way that strict authoritarianism can't.
I should note that some things aren't up for discussion. And whether they agree or not, they still have to follow the family rules.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote: I should note that some things aren't up for discussion. And whether they agree or not, they still have to follow the family rules
But this is asking them to trust you and the wisdom of your decision will one day make sense to them.
That is all I am saying, many rules seem stupid until you've either observed them for some time, (such as trying new things can be good for you) or they are disobeyed (don't touch a stove that is on).
Your children learn to trust you at the first because you are good to them, and they see the example you set is good.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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As a Christian and a parent, I have nothing good to say about the Pearls'. I have read quite a bit by and about them over the years and have come to the conclusion that they are truly evil- I'm n ot using that word lightly, I mean evil in the real sense of the word. I think they're perverting the word of God, and in a way that hangs a the proverbial millstone about their necks. They make me ill. I also don't see a differnce between spanking and hitting. It disturbs me that we have a seperate word for hitting our children, as if it's somehow not hitting.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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"Ideally, how would you discipline a child that has a problem with screaming and whining? Say this child is around...urmmm...four years old, and that the problem has been existent since age two."
Depends on what it's about, and where it takes place. It took a great deal of time and annoying sacrifice, but my kids learned fairly early that screaming or acting up in a store, restaurant or theater to get something would swiftly result in our completely leaving the premises so that they got nothing at all. Annoying for me -- I missed a lot of movies, and walked away from a lot of good meals -- but it worked, eventually.
Our first son was (is) asthmatic and we literally couldn't punish him in any dramatic way; he'd have an attack and back we'd go to the ER. We were forced to reason with him from an extremely early age. He turned out to be extremely polite, so we treated the second son the same way. Parents of two or more children are laughing at this point... Let's say we could have standed to whack the second kid a few times, but it's a little late now and he's turning out fine anyway.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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In California (I don't know about other states) if you're going to spank, you had best do it in private because the anti-spanking people will call CPS and tell them you were BEATING your kids.
The anti-spanking people out here are militant and don't care what's best for the kids, so long as they're not spanked.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Just a note from the previous page...
In California (I don't know about other states) if you're going to spank, you had best do it in private because the anti-spanking people will call CPS and tell them you were BEATING your kids.
The anti-spanking people out here are militant and don't care what's best for the kids, so long as they're not spanked.
I'm moving to California, now when I playfully spank my wife I can counter sue those people for slander and libel when child services arrive.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: The anti-spanking people out here are militant and don't care what's best for the kids, so long as they're not spanked.
If you believe that hitting is always wrong, you can never see a spanking as "best for the kids".
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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That's too subjective to say they're lying. One person's slap may truly be another person's beating.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Discipline is such a strange thing. With four kids, I've had to learn that what works with one doesn't work with the others. You have to tailor the discipline to each child, for it to be effective.
Now, of course, you have to explain why you're doing what you're doing. (And naturally, I'm talking about kids old enough to understand basic reasoning and "get" what you're doing).
For example, the most effective means of discipline with my son is suspension of his Xbox privileges. If he misbehaves at school or gets in trouble with us, he can't play XBox for a certain period of time, usually a day. It works tremendously well. He understands that video games are a privilege, not a right, and he loves playing them so losing that opportunity matters to him.
If I tried to employ the same discipline on any of the girls they'd just shrug and go on their way. They don't care about being able to play Xbox or not. If, however, I took away my 14 year old's iPod for a couple days, that would get her attention. Or, say, didn't let the 9 year old go to gymnastics practice it would impact her. I use whatever works for the child.
I have to say the idea of hitting a child with objects - pipes, no less, makes me sick.
quote:When we tell the kids not to do something, we give them the reason why. I believe that reasoning with children, even when they're almost too young to understand your reasons, leads them to trust you.
I cannot emphasize the importance of parent-child trust enough. It is almost synonymous, I think, with love.
Now, my kids may choose not to believe my reasons; and they may question my reasons more than many other children do for their parents. But I have faith ( ) that reasoning with them will build them up in a way that strict authoritarianism can't.
I should note that some things aren't up for discussion. And whether they agree or not, they still have to follow the family rules.
I could have written this. It's exactly the way we do things. I have to say, one of the most rewarding moments of my life was when my 14 year old came to me once and said "Now I understand why you are so strongly against us spending the night at other people's houses." She had read a report of a girl who was sexually abused at a spend-the-night party. She never liked the rule about not being able to spend the night, but when she got old enough and mature enough to understand the reasons I'd given her all through the years, she got it and told me she appreciated us for our concern. She actually said, "I can see now you only wanted to keep us safe. At least I can tell you care."
All the foot-stomping, whining, and carrying on that took place whenever I refused to give in on our rules was definitely worth it to hear her say that.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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The way Pixiest raised the comparison implies to me they are lying about the details in order to involve CPS.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Further, CPS is trigger happy out here. I have heard from more than one friend who are good parents, yet have had CPS called on them.
Once they get their foot in the door, they will be after you till you get a lawyer. They will continue to harass you for years.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:I have to say, one of the most rewarding moments of my life was when my 14 year old came to me once and said "Now I understand why you are so strongly against us spending the night at other people's houses."
I like your method of discipline; can I put you on the spot to provide an example for me?
Ideally, how would you discipline a child that has a problem with screaming and whining? Say this child is around...urmmm...four years old, and that the problem has been existent since age two.
Thanks.
Screaming and whining are not effective forms of communication. Therefore, the child does not get when she wants by screaming or whining (we have this problem ourselves occasionally.)
While it's hard, we've found that the best thing to do for screaming and whining is to ignore it. Sometimes this means remove the screaming child from the place where you are at (if it will bother others) and then ignore the screaming (strapping into a carseat and just driving around the block until it stops can help.) At home, we walk out of the room. If she follows, we leave again. We make it clear we are not leaving her, just ignoring her-- "I can't understand you when you yell and I don't like to be around it. I'm going to leave now until the yelling stops." Then walk out. And never, ever, ever give in to screaming or whining requests until they are rephrased appropriately.
Now, some kids take longer to outgrow this phase than others; my brother had screaming fits until he was 5. But he did eventually outgrow it, and in the meantime they got less and less frequent (as our daughter's are) until he outgrew them. Most kids, though, learn faster than that, especially if after they calm down you tell them, "When you are that upset, ________ is one way you might try expressing your feelings instead of screaming." The goal here is to let them know that it's okay to be upset and frustrated when things don't go your way, but you don't get your way through terrorism and you sometimes need to calm down before talking to people.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by NotMe: why do some adults still think that spanking and beating is their last resort? It is never the only option for disciplining a person who can think for himself.
You're contradicting yourself here. No, it's never the only option. It is what you say, a last resort. It is something for when all other avenues fail. No one here has argued that it's the only option.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Further, CPS is trigger happy out here. I have heard from more than one friend who are good parents, yet have had CPS called on them.
Once they get their foot in the door, they will be after you till you get a lawyer. They will continue to harass you for years.
This has not been true in my experience. CPS is understaffed and overworked. If they deem a situation not to be a threat, they don't keep bothering you unless there's another call.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I think spanking sparingly over something serious when the child is young would be ok, but I'd prefer not to. I'd much rather find alternatives that teach them to behave without hurting them. I think child abuse, and any excuses (biblical or otherwise) to defend are quite disgusting.
The idea of hitting a small child with any hard object just makes shivers run down my spine. I'd much rather force the child to take a time-out with no toys, or give them extra chores, or give them a punishment befitting the deed (making a mess is cleaning, etc.), something unenjoyable but not painful.
That, and they make it sound as though you need to train them like a dog, and that idea bothers me quite a bit.
Posts: 208 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Further, CPS is trigger happy out here. I have heard from more than one friend who are good parents, yet have had CPS called on them.
Once they get their foot in the door, they will be after you till you get a lawyer. They will continue to harass you for years.
This has not been true in my experience. CPS is understaffed and overworked. If they deem a situation not to be a threat, they don't keep bothering you unless there's another call.
Agreed. Moreover, I was told that having on file that a complaint had been dismissed as obviously being unsubstantiated nonsense was actually something of a protection against future complaints. I was also told that an open-handed swat on the bottom was perfectly legal.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I don't have time to read this whole thread, but I wanted to share my two cents.
Beating children, spanking children, and otherwise causing pain to children as a means of punishment teaches them that adults have all the power. As other people have mentioned here, you may end up with cowed, obedient children and young adults, or you may end up with sneaky, resentful, rebellious children who think that causing pain is a good way to get what they want.
Children are people and deserve respect. If you show them respect and make every effort not to cause pain, they will do the same for you.
I don't mean spoil the kid and give him everything he wants, I mean give him reasons for your decisions. Instead of "because I'm the grownup and I said so," use "because ice cream isn't very good for you," or "because the dentist makes sure your teeth stay healthy."
Let the child know that his desires are valid. You may think that it's no big deal that the tennis ball is stuck on the roof, but make sure the child sees that you understand it's a major tragedy in his world.
One way to show a child that his desires are valid and important is the offer choices. Offer a choice of milk or orange juice, of biking or swimming, of this sweater or that one. Decision-making is an important skill (unless your child plans to grow up doing what everyone tells him), and kids should start by making small decisions before they grow up and have to make big ones. If they make bad choices, let them live with the consequences, but there's no need to add your own punishment on top of that. If the kid makes himself sick by eating all the Halloween chocolate, then he has to suffer through being sick; there's no need to punish him additionally (physically or otherwise).
Working as a teacher, I've found that if you give children reasons, and choices, and you respect what's important to them, then you will have very, very few situations where you feel the need to punish them. I once had a parent tell me, "If my daughter doesn't listen to you, just count to three." I responded that I'd never had a problem with the daughter not listening to me, because I always tried to listen to her when she had something to say.
[Sorry, I got off-topic a little. I guess I had this rant sitting around in my head today. I got all these ideas from a book called _How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk_, which I think should be required reading for all expectant parents.]
Posts: 1785 | Registered: May 1999
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Yeah, why can't people do stuff like that? It makes more sense to me than just hitting a child. Like if a kid whined among the Pearls or something they'd just employ a couple of swift wacks, but suppose the child really had a problem besides, "I want more caaaaaaaaaake and you won't let me have any.?" Then what? Their method doesn't encourage much creativity. Like the mother basically, in my view flogged the child 10 licks every day for seven days for lying. I don't see how that's helpful...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:I have to say, one of the most rewarding moments of my life was when my 14 year old came to me once and said "Now I understand why you are so strongly against us spending the night at other people's houses."
That is wonderful.
It is. My oldest is finally "getting" why we put our foot down certain things.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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I thought for a while about the propriety of saying this aloud, but I have to admit that I was not thrilled by the idea of a kid, upon hearing of an isolated rape, coming to her parents and saying "Now I understand why you're protecting me."
The problem I have with this -- and the reason I'd be unhappy if it happened with Sophie -- is that there's danger in everything. If I refused to let Sophie play in the yard, she could eventually stumble across an article about a girl killed in her backyard; if I refused to let her cross the street, she could find all kinds of articles about teenagers killed crossing the street.
Sure, there are things I won't let Sophie do (and, looking to the future, don't intend to let her do) because, on balance, I feel they're more dangerous than they are rewarding. But if she came to me with a comment like the one you've mentioned, Belle, I'd actually be more likely to teach her some basic statistical analysis.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I'm a big believer in natural consequences. If you forget your dance shoes, like my oldest did last week, for rehearsal, then you have to be on the stage in front of everyone dancing barefoot.
I'm not going to go home and get your shoes for you. I don't bail out my kids. If they make mistakes, they deal with the consequences.
I don't take forgotten homework to school, I don't bring you your dance shoes, or your grips if you're a gymnast, or wash clothes for you if you forgot and it's now past your bedtime. You have to accept the grade you get for no homework, explain to the coaches why you don't have your grips when it's time to workout bars, and go to school in clothes that need washing. Tough. Learn to deal, because when you're out on your own no one is going to bail you out.
My kids are all extremely responsible, for the most part, and don't complain or whine for things that I see a lot of other kids doing. By no means are they perfect, and I would never let them deal with consequences if they would harm them seriously in any way of course, but it does help. I've gotten tons of compliments on how mature my oldest is and how responsible she is from parents that hire her to babysit. She learned that she had to accept responsibility for her choices from an early age, and it has made her a reliable, responsible young adult.
Just last Monday a parent of one of my daughters' teammates brought her daughter's grips for her, because she didn't want her to be embarrassed by not having them. Had it been mine, she'd have suffered the embarrassment. And I bet she would have been less likely to forgot her grips again. What incentive does this young girl have to learn to remember her own equipment, when she knows Mom will always just go home and get them for her if she forgets?
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Sorry for the double post, but Tom what are you trying to say? I'm not being snarky, I genuinely don't understand your criticism.
I think what I taught her does say a lot about statistics - because statistically, many young people are abused by relatives, and friends and relatives of their friends. I have seen what sexual abuse does to a person, and to a family, and there is very little I will not do to protect my children from it. The rule about no spending the night in other people's houses is universal, by the way - it applies to my son as well as my daughters.
They are all limited to a very few places where they're allowed to sleep if one of us is not there. The parents must be known to us..as in we've spent time with them and know them well, there can be no unmarried persons of the opposite gender in the house. If a girl has a brother, then my daughter can't spend the night with them. There can be no alcohol in the house.
My daughter used to think this was unnecessary restrictive, as many of her friends houses did not meet our criteria. She would constantly have to turn down invitations to parties because either I didn't know the family, or there was an older brother, etc. She didn't get it, because she thought I was over-reacting. Now she doesn't think I am.
And, I should note that a friend of mine who is a therapist told me she recommends every parent do the same - because she's counselled many victims of sexual abuse who were abused in a friend's home and she's also treated sexual offenders who targeted the friends of their daughters in such situations. So, I don't think my caution is unwarranted.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I don't think so either... The way things are nowadays... *shudder* I'd be afraid to send a child of mine on a camping trip with strangers. It's sad that things are like that though...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Belle, I think it's wonderful that you let your kids live with the consequences of their actions instead of inventing artificial "consequences."
About the sleepover thing: I think it's a legitimate rule with good reasoning behind it. At some point, one does have to draw a line about how much risk one is willing to take (learning to drive is extremely risky, but people let their sixteen-year-olds do it all the time).
Posts: 1785 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:As other people have mentioned here, you may end up with cowed, obedient children and young adults, or you may end up with sneaky, resentful, rebellious children who think that causing pain is a good way to get what they want.
Or you may end up with normal children who relate to the world within normal parameters.
Or any variant in between.
Again, spanking can be a tool the same way time outs can. It depends on the child (and the parent) for its effectiveness.
quote:I'd be afraid to send a child of mine on a camping trip with strangers. It's sad that things are like that though...
Well...that's why you have to get to know the children your children know, and know their parents.
Each family needs to make their own decisions about their comfort level with family and strangers. Strangers can be a danger, but statistically, a child is more likely to face abuse from someone they know-- a family member, a friend, a trusted authority figure. Like Belle, we've chosen to not allow sleepovers.
Mostly.
Understanding that, and our reasons for it, doesn't take into account all the other things we do to build our childrens' defenses against physical, emotional, and sexual abuse. It's not just that we forbid them to spend the night at a friend's house-- that's not much protection when you stop to think it over-- but that we teach them to be aware of their surroundings, and to take ownership of their own actions, and bodies.
We teach them how to be safe, and what to do when they haven't been safe, and what to do if circumstances get out of their control. We teach them to trust us, and give them reasons to believe what we teach them.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:What incentive does this young girl have to learn to remember her own equipment, when she knows Mom will always just go home and get them for her if she forgets?
Well, if Mom goes up and gives her an embarrassingly Mom-like embrace and kiss out there on the gym floor in front of all her friends...
She might learn the same thing.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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I don't think Belle's rule in unreasonable at all. We have the same one. There is ONE person that Matthew is allowed to overnight with, and we have known them for 14 years and they are like family. But they have boys, so even Livvie can't stay there. I also agree with not rescuing kids. Kids really only forget things once that way.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by romanylass: I don't think Belle's rule in unreasonable at all. We have the same one. There is ONE person that Matthew is allowed to overnight with, and we have known them for 14 years and they are like family. But they have boys, so even Livvie can't stay there. I also agree with not rescuing kids. Kids really only forget things once that way.
Oh I dunno about that, I forgot VERY important things for school all the way until I was graduated, my parents almost ALWAYS let me live with the consequences of it. It was not until I was an adult that I started devising ways to prevent myself from forgetting things, but I still do it quite often.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Interesting thing about those folks... I think they do stuff like that because they are threatened. They fear that if they are not strict with their children, if they do not break their wills, control every aspect of their lives, homeschool them to isolate them from the world that their children will turn away from their religion they were born into and their souls will be lost. So they believe in putting them in line with this strict form of discipline from an early age so they are used to it, so it's their way of life. But it's interesting the way that fellow mentioned how bad he feels employing such techiniques on his granddaughter. If it's right to do that, then why would he feel so bad doing that?
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