posted
Also, crime is a surprisingly easy thing to turn to. It's always there, just to your right, shaped like a canvas sack with a dollar sign on it.
Although I usually suggest corporate crime, which is to your left and shaped like a corporate jet on it's way to Tijuana.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: That verbage awesomes.
I thought it was fairly descriptive of what happened, and the way you phrased the above was quite evocative, if you ask me. Language is a living thing, after all.
Syn, I wish you the best with your job hunt! I'm a telephone phobic person myself, but exposure helps. *hug*
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Olivet: I thought it was fairly descriptive of what happened, and the way you phrased the above was quite evocative, if you ask me.
Bah! He stole it from me. Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ben: Since I started at Hatrack my Salary has increased 100% and is about to increase further.
Hatrack = mo' money.
Let's see. When I started at Hatrack I was teaching part time. Then I was not working and attempting to become an actuary *shudder* but God had mercy and made sure I failed the test.
Now I'm making considerably more than when I started at Hatrack, but not as much as I would be had I actually become an actuary. I'm ok with that. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
My husband has actuary on his list of potential careers. What was so awful about it? My husband is currently working on a masters in math, tutoring at Sylvan part time. And before that, he was a high school teacher.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
All the parts of calculus I disliked the first time, minus most of the parts I liked. Plus (dear God!) statistics.
It's a great job for many people. My mom's friend has worked as an actuary for 20 years and loves it. I think it would have made me insane.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: My salary increased by infinity% since I started at Hatrack.
Were you unemployed or not working when you joined hatrack?
As for myself my salery has in fact increased 40% since joining hatrack.
I was in law school, and I worked the next summer as an unpaid intern.
I had one summer's salary after my second year, and then full time work starting August after graduation.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: You can teach yourself basic programming fairly easily
But which language? When I was studying computer science, it seemed like I never learned the right languages to get a non-student job. It was very frustrating.
posted
My salary since I started reading Hatrack...went up and peaked at about a 611% increase and has gone back down, and now it's about 354% of what it was when I started.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: My salary increased by infinity% since I started at Hatrack.
Were you unemployed or not working when you joined hatrack?
As for myself my salery has in fact increased 40% since joining hatrack.
I was in law school, and I worked the next summer as an unpaid intern.
I had one summer's salary after my second year, and then full time work starting August after graduation.
See I understand that unpaid intern positions still offer valuable resume building opportunities/experience. But besides taking out loans or somehow running a side business how do you afford to go an entire summer without income, assuming family/friends are not doling out money?
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posted
I worked for 11 years at my own company, and I sold my share to my partner before going to law school.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Any of the following languages or language families can secure you gainful employment programming in many locations: Java, C++, .Net, and, strangely, Cobol. I'm leaving off most 'scripting languages' either due to relatively low popularity (though there are still plenty of jobs in Python, for instance) or high salary variability (javascript and php can be good programming jobs, but lots of places try to hire people to program them for substandard wages). The ones I list first are in approximate order from most commonly to least commonly taught in CS programs. I would not call C++ easy to learn, but the others aren't too bad.
Some of the languages commonly taught in computer science are not directly very employable, but are excellent for learning how to write good code. I'm looking at scheme, in particular. However, unless the program either offers courses teaching additional languages or the student goes out of his way to learn one or more, that skill can be relatively useless.
The biggest failing with CS departments in my experience is not what languages they teach, but what level of programming they teach. When I say good code above, I mean relatively well structured code for small projects. Large projects are very different entities, and very few computer science departments teach good programming practices that scale up in the real world. This is particularly true of practices not directly part of programming, like version control and bug tracking.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by fugu13: Any of the following languages or language families can secure you gainful employment programming in many locations: Java, C++, .Net, and, strangely, Cobol.
See, I know (well, knew) Java, but at the time I guess it was just too new because the only jobs I was able to get programming in it were student jobs at my university. I really haven't been involved in the cs world for a good six or seven years now. So are you saying that if I brushed off and updated my Java skills, I could get an entry-level programming job (assuming there were any in my area)? Do you recommend any particular books to accomplish this?
I'm really not all that eager to re-enter the workforce, but financially we're slowly sinking. If I have to work outside the home at all, I'd rather be programming than working retail, food service, or office.
posted
I've seen java postings on CL in the last few months (which is about how long I've been regularly checking CL) with relative frequency (at least one every two weeks or so).
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Yes, Java is highly employable. I suspect your issues with finding a job were more related to the general problems finding an IT job shortly after the dot-com bubble.
You'll find java has changed a lot since you were learning it, though it should still be recognizable. The big changes are generic types and annotation.
A good place to brush up might be Thinking in Java, which is available free from the author. It does not have information on generics or annotations, but while those are useful they will be fairly easy to pick up on once you're back up to speed: http://www.mindview.net/Books/TIJ/
It is often important with Java to be familiar with a particular set of libraries for certain jobs. If working in a JEE shop, you'd need to be familiar with Enterprise JavaBeans, for instance. If working on a GUI app, you might need to know Swing or SWT (or AWT).
Many Java shops are still using applications written in older versions of Java, so that should be less of a change. Those that have adopted modern changes often use libraries like Spring extensively, so depending on your job market it might be useful to learn that, or it might be useless (at least in immediate practicality, I find Spring extremely useful for figuring out good ways to structure code).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by fugu13: Yes, Java is highly employable. I suspect your issues with finding a job were more related to the general problems finding an IT job shortly after the dot-com bubble.
Yes, I think that was the case. I just had no idea that things had gotten better in the last six years! I'll check out that site.
One last thing. I don't actually have a degree. How big of an issue is that generally in programming now? I took most of the cs classes that I needed (again, 6-8 years ago) for a degree, but I would still need quite a lot of general classes to actually graduate. Going to school isn't an option at the moment.
posted
Yeah, in the past couple years in particular demand for IT staff has grown considerably.
Needing a degree would really depend on the area. Some employers really require them, some say they require them but can deal with a qualified applicant without one, and others don't care. If your school was relatively local, a professor might well be able to help you with some connections. That's often the best way to find programming work. Alternatively, a local college or university might have part time programming jobs that they can't find enough students qualified to fill (and try to get in contact with the smaller units at the school; part time job postings often do not percolate well; going to the school's part time job fair might make sense, too).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Unfortunately, I went to school in Arizona and now live in Ohio, so I doubt any of my professors would have any contacts. I hardly remember the names of most of them, anyhow. Well, we'll see how this goes. Thanks for the information.
posted
Yesterday I went to another temp agency. I got to call them and the other one I'm using tomorrow. But mostly I want my old job back. I loved that job. I saw a co-worker at the store yesterday and she said they should just hire me permanantly since they have so much work! The one thing I hate about a lot of temp jobs is when they don't have enough work for me to do, so I have to either sit there and pretend to be working or complain about the lack of work and get sent home early losing pay. The old job had tons of letters that needed to get done in a day, and since the workers produce so many reports, it's hard to get caught up on that. No wonder I was afraid to ask about staying there. Dang, I want to go back. I'd be on report sheet 3 I think by now... which would be between 85-87 letters if there's no errors on the report. Or maybe I'd be on the third one wishing I was on the 4th one because I'd really have to hustle to finish by 3 O' clock. I should never get too attached but I miss it despite the pain in my wrist.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I would be very interested in those ways if you are not adverse to discussing them. I have been studying synesthesia quite intently for about a year now. Any cool links you have would also be appreciated.
I am one of those people who think that synesthesia is the key to understanding consciousness, art and religiosity.
Posts: 675 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by orlox: I would be very interested in those ways if you are not adverse to discussing them. I have been studying synesthesia quite intently for about a year now. Any cool links you have would also be appreciated.
I am one of those people who think that synesthesia is the key to understanding consciousness, art and religiosity.
Cool. I do weird things like- See colours in music based on keys Smell songs, abstract concepts have smells to me as well as individual people. If I am listening to a song I can almost "smell" who wrote it or who's playing it, but it's not a real smell though like garlic or oranges. I also can taste and smell words too.
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posted
Just about all of them. Christianity, Islam, Lesbianism, Atheism. All of them have smells Not to mention the way some songs feel in my veins and on my skin.
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I don't have number synesthesia... like seeing colours with numbers. But words have tastes and smells, not so much numbers.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I don't know what to say. I like getting a job by putting in an application like a good democrat, receiving a call and going on an interview. I can't quite explain why this works in some cities and fails in others. I think it's a matter of the working mentality that varies from city to city. I'm not going to say that the job market is all fair and just and nice and honest. I will tell you that a lot of people lie to themselves and to others about how they came to be considered for their job and why, but I guess you have to keep on rolling.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Wow. Your form of synesthesia, lexical-gustatory, is very rare. And very interesting. I still have lots of questions but I don't want to be too pushy. Please indicate if you would like to me to drop the whole thing, or, if you are still up for some questions, if you would prefer an e-mail exchange.
I am currently wondering:
Does anyone else in your family have synesthesia and if so what type?
Do all proper names induce a taste/smell?
Have you noticed phonetic similarity in your response? Does 'Barbara' taste like rhubarb?
Do odd-sounding screen names work too? I can't help but wonder what orlox tastes like! Or names like King of Men, do you experience it as something different than if the words were not a proper noun? In other words your normal 'king' response plus your normal 'men' response or something else completely.
Posts: 675 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:See, I know (well, knew) Java, but at the time I guess it was just too new because the only jobs I was able to get programming in it were student jobs at my university. I really haven't been involved in the cs world for a good six or seven years now. So are you saying that if I brushed off and updated my Java skills, I could get an entry-level programming job (assuming there were any in my area)? Do you recommend any particular books to accomplish this?
I am a professional java developer in a J2EE shop. If you can get into the field, it is absolutely on fire right now. I was hired at 46K, but after 2 years I am now making 74K, to give you an idea of just how in demand J2EE developers are.
However, from what I've seen, no one will even want to talk to you without at least a BA in Computer Science, with a preference for the BS.
On the other hand, there are far more Java jobs in my area than there are candidates to fill them, so perhaps you can get your foot in the door without a degree. A great cover-letter, and some independent research into the specific topics interviewers are looking for, will probably be the key to overcoming that hurdle.
This will show your potential employer that you at least know the language. I'd suggest getting certified for 5.0. It isn't an easy certification to get, so watch out. You can't just say "Oh, I know Java" and walk out with the certification. Serious studying of preparation materials is required for a good score.
Even if you don't get the certification ($200), I'd still study for it. If you know enough about Java to pass it, congrats, you know the language better than 80% of the engineers I've worked with. We've had guys hired with "5 years Java experience" who didn't know what an ArrayList is. A lot of interviewers will grill you on Java concepts (such as multithreading or inheritance) and if you can't answer the question well, your resume goes in the trash.
Getting Java knowledge is a great first step, but in order to get a job, you need to demonstrate not only knowing the language, but the skillset for the specific area the company is looking for. Fugu mentions GUI shops, but I've seen perhaps one or two job posts total for these in my area.
If you want to make the best chance of getting a Java job, you need to look into getting employed by a J2EE shop. For the Omaha area, at least 75% of all listed positions for programmer are J2EE jobs. These positions are difficult for employers to fill, because no one gets taught J2EE in college. I got a J2EE job by studying like crazy for a couple of weeks, and then putting a "J2EE" category in the skill section of my resume.
If you can study your butt off so that you can talk intelligently at an interview about J2EE concepts, you may have a chance.
You should know the basics of EJBs, Servlets, JSPs, and at least have an idea of what the different application servers are (JBoss, Weblogic, Websphere).
Don't learn EJBs in particular depth, however, because Hibernate and Spring are quickly replacing EJBs for most new projects. You need to know what the different types of beans do, and that's about it. If the shop that's going to hire you still does EJBs, then start your in depth research.
It's also necessary to be able to claim some database experience. "I've worked with Oracle" is good enough, I've found. Know the basics of SQL (simple select statement is all, really), and then if there is a database you can claim you have experience with (DB2, Oracle, SQLServer, MySQL) then do so. Once they know you have worked with one database system, the other types are trivial. Hibernate/Entity Beans/JDBC hide the specific database implementation from you as a coder anyway.
If you are really serious about getting a Java job, I would suggest:
1) Getting Java (5.0) Certified (will probably take a good month or two of studying) 2) Learning the basics of J2EE (couple of weeks) 3) Downloading Eclipse, and Apache Tomcat and creating a very simple web app. (a few hours, if you follow a tutorial to set up, a couple of days to make the app) 4) Use Hibernate, Servlets, and JSPs in your small web app. At least enough to talk intelligently about them. (a couple of weeks) 5) Know what these terms mean: CVS, JUnit, Struts, XML, Spring, SOA, Ant, Web Service, JMS, JDBC, DOM vs SAX, Design Patterns. If you are applying for a job with an acronym, spend 15 minutes reading about what that acronym stands for before the interview. 6) Don't wait for all this to be finished to start looking and applying for jobs. Apply to positions you aren't qualified for! My last position I applied for wanted 6 years of experience minimum. I have 2. I got the interview, blew them away, and they desperately wanted to hire me. 7) Apply to Quality Assurance jobs at software companies as well as programming ones. This is a great way to get your foot in the door.
If you can get an interview, do it. Even if you stink up the joint, you will learn what sort of questions you need to be able to answer. You will likely be asked the same questions again at later interviews! The second time, you should knock it out of the park.
I've done about 10 Java interviews, and each of these questions has come up more than once:
1) Define "polymorphism" 2) Define "loose coupling" 3) What is the difference between an Abstract class and an interface? 4) What is the difference between DOM and SAX parsers? 5) Is the Iterator a design pattern?
If you can do all that, I'd say you have a decent chance of getting an entry level Java job.
Spending all that time is a big risk, for sure, since you may still not get a job. The rewards are phenomenal though. Once you get your foot in the door, your experience counts for FAR more than your degree does.
quote:Originally posted by orlox: Wow. Your form of synesthesia, lexical-gustatory, is very rare. And very interesting. I still have lots of questions but I don't want to be too pushy. Please indicate if you would like to me to drop the whole thing, or, if you are still up for some questions, if you would prefer an e-mail exchange.
I am currently wondering:
Does anyone else in your family have synesthesia and if so what type?
Do all proper names induce a taste/smell?
Have you noticed phonetic similarity in your response? Does 'Barbara' taste like rhubarb?
Do odd-sounding screen names work too? I can't help but wonder what orlox tastes like! Or names like King of Men, do you experience it as something different than if the words were not a proper noun? In other words your normal 'king' response plus your normal 'men' response or something else completely.
I forgot to mention how when I listen to music, high voices are kind of cold, low voices warmer, and tenors tend to make me think of milk chocolate, baritones, dark, basses, really dark chocolate. I think my mother and cousin might have it, not really sure. They might do colours, but not like me. Yes, but they really aren't real smells, I think some names taste better than others. Barbara doesn't taste like rhubarb,. but then i have never had rhubarb before. Do odd-sounding screen names work too? I can't help but wonder what orlox tastes like! Or names like King of Men, do you experience it as something different than if the words were not a proper noun? In other words your normal 'king' response plus your normal 'men' response or something else completely. I reckon it stays the same. It's really od to do this, but it's also cool.
also Pink and orange tend to make me feel weird when they're together. I hate the way pink tastes, but when it's with orange like in those ugly bags, it's so nasty. BLEAH. I hate it. Dark blue feels much better.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
There's a lot of interest in some parts of the JEE (remember, they changed the name ) world in OSGI. I doubt its penetrated most traditional JEE shops yet, but its worth watching. OSGi solves a lot of the problems spring doesn't (so much so that the spring people have created a Spring-OSGi variant).
Btw, if you want, after you've brushed up, I can send you a short (one class) java test I've developed to give to our interviewees. The test is, given this class full of errors (but fully documented to describe what should be going on), fix the errors. I give it to people in Eclipse, and they can use whatever resources they want (including asking me, though I reserve the right to not answer).
It includes variants on several common programming mistakes, and tries to use misdirection to get people to not see the bugs if they look shallowly, but the bugs should be pretty obvious to someone who clearly understands how java evaluates things and/or is willing to put in lots of print statements (or use the debugger to examine values at each step of execution).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Ahh the cynicism of the Chicago machine begins to set into Irami's veins...
I'm turning into a misanthrope, and I am not exaggerating when I say that I will put a knife in my throat before I kiss any white ass to get or keep a job.
Xavier,
I went to the website, it sounds like it would take me four months of studying and a 1,000 dollars in various fees. I'm not averse to the work, but I am worried that I'll go through the motions and still not get a job. I know that there isn't any kind of assurance you can give that Java is the way to go, but I'm willing to roll the dice.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I wonder if I could ever learn that stuff. I'm hopeless at math. Hopeless at even simple arithmatic, it's pathetic.
I wonder if I should call this place I called this morning back, I didn't hear from that woman again even though I called yesterday and emailed her about not being able to take the test. Nor did I hear from Broadview, but if I call them, if it's like last year...
I am getting a bit discouraged
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I went to the website, it sounds like it would take me four months of studying and a 1,000 dollars in various study aides. I'm not averse to the work, but I am worried that I'll go through the motions and still not get a job. I know that there isn't any kind of assurance you can give that Java is the way to go, but I'm willing to roll the dice.
Yeah, that's why the degree is so key these days. If you got had a CS degree and did those things, a job is virtually guaranteed (in the current market, who knows how long it will stay this good). Without the degree, I still don't know if it is enough.
quote:I wonder if I could ever learn that stuff. I'm hopeless at math. Hopeless at even simple arithmatic, it's pathetic.
Probably not. You have to be able to think in a very logical and formal way (but also abstract!). Most people can do it, but few can do it well.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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I'm turning into a misanthrope, and I am not exaggerating when I say that I will put a knife in my throat before I kiss any white ass to get or keep a job. [/QUOTE]
I'm not sure if I have normal logic.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Irami: everything you need to study for it is available online (or in a library, if you like hardcopy, though you might have to go to a university CS department library), and I think the cert test itself would just cost the $200 Xavier mentions.
Something to keep in mind, open source contributions are a huge bonus in a job search. If you've contributed substantial code to an open source java project, employers will sit up and notice (and possibly be much more willing to overlook a lack of degree).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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What's worse is that the main reason a CS degree is key is because of Human Resource officials. I don't know if I can find the words to express my contempt for Human Resource officials. Here is the plan: it looks like I'll be able to certify as a substitute teacher by the end of the summer, that should carry me through the Fall and Winter. I can earn the J2EE certification in this time.
According to the Teaching certification programs I've spoken with, I have to have the equivalent of a degree in History or in English as well as a few education courses to take the test to become a High School English or History teacher. I'm not happy about this, but we aren't going to talk about how this makes me feel. For the most part, I like taking the extra courses, as long as someone else pays. I'll just take out some more loans, and at the end, either I'll have a job and pay back the loans, or they can try to pry the money from cold, dead hands. I overloaded on History, Political Science, and Rhetoric classes en route to getting a Philosophy degree, who knows if the Powers that Be will be agreeable in substituting Rhetoric for English and Political Science for History. One hopes.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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