posted
I am reading Guns, Germs, and Steel. I just ran across this sentence (or is it two sentences?) at the very end of chapter 16:
quote:Korea and Japan adopted rice from China in the second millennium B.C., bronze metallurgy by the first millennium B.C., and writing in the first millennium A.D. China also transmitted West Asian wheat and barley to Korea and Japan.
It took three readings for me to parse it correctly. If it had been like this, I'd have read it right the first time:
quote:Korea and Japan adopted rice from China in the second millennium B.C., bronze metallurgy by the first millennium B.C., and writing in the first millennium A.D. China also transmitted West Asian wheat and barley to Korea and Japan.
quote:I'm surprised KQ that you learned to use 2 spaces, as young as you are. Have you ever even USED a typewriter, as opposed to a word processor? I have at least two daughters who are older than you that learned to "type" exclusively on computers. This problem should be self correcting as those of us who learned the monospaced version are getting older and out of the work force (okay, it'll be a couple more decades, but still...) Instead, the old rules seem to be perpetuating instead of going away.<sigh>
I'm slightly younger than KQ, and I did my first typing on a typwriter (4th grade typed papers Anne? Jeez!). We didn't get our first computer until I was in I think 7th grade, and I didn't really get decent access to it until after my older brother got his own computer when I got into high school. So I did my initial learning on a typewriter but didn't get proficient until I had more time on a computer.
I always learned one period, until high school I heard about two periods but it was never enforced. In college two periods was never mentioned either. Personally I don't see the point of two periods. I don't think it does anything other than make paragraphs look funny.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: In Microsoft Word, go to Tools/Preferences/Spelling & Grammar/Settings/Spaces between sentences.
That only helps if disabling the abomination of grammar checking isn't the very first thing you do when you install a new instance of Microsoft Word.
It's not a matter of helping, I was simply pointing out that Word has settings for either preference. And yes, there are still teachers and hiring managers who will expect two spaces after a period.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Mike: You gotta wonder about taking typesetting advice from someone who uses Arial over Helvetica.
Frankly, I think they're both terrible fonts.
quote:And yet there is no explanation of why this should be the case. If we needed extra space between sentences back in the days of monospace fonts, why don't we now with proportional fonts? What is it exactly about proportional fonts that fixes this problem?
Do you know what the difference is between monospace and proportional fonts? In a monospace font, like Courier, every character is the same width, so a period takes up as much space as a W. But with proportional fonts, each character takes up a more appropriate amount of space, and any halfway decent font will have different kerning values for different characters, so a period will be tucked closer to the character it follows. This means it doesn't look like it's hanging out somewhere in the middle between the sentences.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Yeah. I think we were the only family in my grade who didn't have a computer. My mom worked really hard and we ate a lot of beans to live in the school district we lived in. We took computer classes in school starting in kindergarten, so they assumed either you knew how to type or someone in your family could type it for you by 4th grade.
quote:It's also why I use a comma at the end of a list before the "and". Clarity.
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: Frankly, I think they're both terrible fonts.
Yes, well, yes. My point stands.
quote:Do you know what the difference is between monospace and proportional fonts? In a monospace font, like Courier, every character is the same width, so a period takes up as much space as a W. But with proportional fonts, each character takes up a more appropriate amount of space, and any halfway decent font will have different kerning values for different characters, so a period will be tucked closer to the character it follows. This means it doesn't look like it's hanging out somewhere in the middle between the sentences.
Yeah, I don't buy it. You either need extra indication of sentence demarcation or you don't. I mean, I get that proportional fonts make it so that letters in words are more tightly grouped together so it's easier to make out individual words, but it's not like we used to use two spaces between all words. Or between words that end or begin with thin letters like 'l' or 'i'. After all it kinda looks like the 'i' in the following is hanging out somewhere in the middle:
code:
Hawaii rocks
Maybe it is more likely that the two-space rule was introduced to separate sentences from each other almost as if each sentence could stand on its own as a "complete thought". Or to distinguish between period-as-abbreviation-mark and period-as-end-of-sentence as in my example at the top of the page.
Incidentally, how much space do you (general you) usually put between words and sentences when you write with pen and paper? I tend to put quite a bit of space between words, more than an em, and more (though not typically double the amount) between sentences.
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Helvetica is a wonderful font. Judging from the amount it still gets used by designers, it's a font that's stood the test of time. I haven't met a graphic designer who doesn't like Helvetica and doesn't use it consistently. Much of the typographic treatment that rings true to me ends up being based on Helvetica.
As far as double spaces, I don't use them and have been editing them out of copy for years. One of the first things I do to a chunk of copy I get from someone else is Find and Replace the double spaces. They wreak havoc with copy layout. They're worse than unnecessary when you're designing an article layout and trying to tighten the copy to save space.
As far as the serial comma, I'm all for including it. I think omitting it causes too many clarity snafus. I know the editing world is divided here, though.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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One space. Two spaces were a cobbled workaround for back when monospaced fonts demanded it.
We could always return to the glory days of classical Rome and TYPEALLSENTENCESINCAPITALLETTERSWITHOUTPUNCTUATIONORSPACESBETWEENSENTENCESATALL
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I'm also old. Back in the late 70s when I was in high school typing class, etc., we were also always told TWO. And that was how I learned.
Then in the early 80's I began working for a newspaper, and we were told to UNLEARN that, because two spaces would cause "guttering" (a line of spaces) in justified set type.
It would really screw me up in job interviews for awhile, because I had "unlearned" two spaces, for one space for the AP world of newspapers. So when I would take a typing test for a secretary job, the test would count me wrong for every missed "2 space".
I think as eventually everything went to word processors, the one space became the norm. I don't know when they stopped teaching two space, since I was out of school by then.
posted
huh, that's the first time I've ever heard of the two space thing. In fact, in the EU legislative documents, all double spaces are an error, we need to do a quality check and it tells you to fix the spaces, no matter where they are.
Posts: 5700 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I think in email it's best to use just one space after everything, because otherwise a space might appear at the beginning of a line on the recipient's end. I was taught that when typing with a program for which this will not be a problem to put two spaces after a period, a question mark, or an exclamation point, but just one space after a colon.
Ideally, though, I think you want a little extra space after a comma; a little more extra space than that after a semicolon; a little more extra space than that after a colon; and somewhat more extra space than that after a period, question mark, or exclamation point (same amount for all three). Presumably the space amounts have this relative ordering because a semicolon marks a greater break in thought than a comma, etc. The exact amounts of extra space should be chosen differently for different fonts. Of course, you wouldn't bother with all of these distinctions unless your word processing program could make them automatically and justify everything. And I've almost never seen a book in which the spacing is done in this "ideal" way.
Posts: 781 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: I think in email it's best to use just one space after everything, because otherwise a space might appear at the beginning of a line on the recipient's end. I was taught that when typing with a program for which this will not be a problem to put two spaces after a period, a question mark, or an exclamation point, but just one space after a colon.
Ideally, though, I think you want a little extra space after a comma; a little more extra space than that after a semicolon; a little more extra space than that after a colon; and somewhat more extra space than that after a period, question mark, or exclamation point (same amount for all three). Presumably the space amounts have this relative ordering because a semicolon marks a greater break in thought than a comma, etc. The exact amounts of extra space should be chosen differently for different fonts. Of course, you wouldn't bother with all of these distinctions unless your word processing program could make them automatically and justify everything. And I've almost never seen a book in which the spacing is done in this "ideal" way.
Wow! And I don't think you've gone far enough. I think we should have different numbers of spaces after nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs and other parts of speech. Think of how much easier it'd be to diagram sentences!
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I think I am about the same age as KQ and I was using computers as early as kindergarten. I definately used a word processor by 2nd if not 3rd grade and I was always told to put two spaces after a period. I had no idea it was considered wrong by anyone until this thread.
Learn something new everyday it seems.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Maybe you should put every single word in a different font. That would make it very easy to distinguish each word from every other word.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I have been typing almost every day for over 50 years. I have never heard of not using two spaces after a period. The "accomodations" that the word processing systems are evidently making without my knowledge perhaps explain why I can't seem to get columns with numbers to line up in Word. You learn something every day!
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I'm sixteen and when I was in 1st and 2nd grade they were still teaching us two spaces after a period. In my case the teachers never said it was wrong, they just simply stopped telling us to do it.
Posts: 1158 | Registered: Feb 2006
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You should NEVER use spaces to line up columns. It works fine with monospace fonts, but not with proportional fonts. Customize your tab stops instead. It actually saves time in the long run, too.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
When I had my first typing assignment, someone asked how many spaces to use. The librarian said it is recommended to "double space." I thought this meant that I needed to put two spaces after a period, but about four years later, I learned what "double spacing" meant, and when I recalled the situation, I realized the student who asked about spacing was grimacing at how close the words were together.
After I learned this, I asked my father how he did it, and he said he put one space after periods, so I worked long and hard to get out of the habit of putting two spaces after periods. Then, more than five years later, I was told by an English teacher that assignments handed in that didn't have two spaces after periods would not be accepted. I griped about how it took me two weeks to get into the habit in first grade, and five months to get out of it in fourth grade.
I'm still in the habit of placing one space after periods. Whenever I had to hand something in in high school, I just did CTRL+H once I finished the document.
Posts: 1029 | Registered: Apr 2007
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You should NEVER use spaces to line up columns. It works fine with monospace fonts, but not with proportional fonts. Customize your tab stops instead. It actually saves time in the long run, too.
Yah! I knew how to hit the decmil tab key on my IBM Executive. But, I haven't found one on this darn computer thing.
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
If you're using Word, go to Format|Tabs and select the sort of tab you want. You can then insert the appropriate tabs with the Tab key.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
One space. And learn how to use en-dashes and em-dashes. And only use serial commas when they are needed for clarity.
Punctuation and spacing interfere with reading speed. That's why they exist. But they shouldn't call undue attention to themselves.
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
May I just point out that through this discussion I have been examining the look of posts who's posters claim that they use two spaces because it is more readable, or whatever.
I've been laughing the whole time because I can't see ANY difference between the posts which ostensibly have two spaces after the periods and those that don't. Something here on the website, I suspect, is fixing the difference for you anyway. You're just wasting your energy with hitting the space bar twice.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
This sentence has seven spaces before it, and fifteen spaces after the comma. The forum software (actually, I'd assume it's just straight up html that's causing it) ignores more than one space, and leading spaces.
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posted
Thanks Tom and Jon. But, that presuposes that I can remember that until I need it again. We'll see.
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
FWIW, I always did the two space thing. For me, it is easier to read my own work. It makes little or no difference if I am reading for enjoyment/leisure. If I'm proofing, however, it inexplicably makes it much easier on me.
I imagine that double-space-barring is very similar in purpose to double-spacing lines in a scholarly work. It allows more room for notes to be written by the examiner in the blank spaces of the page. Just my 2c.
Posts: 1099 | Registered: Apr 2005
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You should NEVER use spaces to line up columns. It works fine with monospace fonts, but not with proportional fonts. Customize your tab stops instead. It actually saves time in the long run, too.
I line things up with spaces all the time. But it's always in monospace font, and I use a text editor (not a word processor) that is designed to do it efficiently.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: May I just point out that through this discussion I have been examining the look of posts who's posters claim that they use two spaces because it is more readable, or whatever.
I've been laughing the whole time because I can't see ANY difference between the posts which ostensibly have two spaces after the periods and those that don't. Something here on the website, I suspect, is fixing the difference for you anyway. You're just wasting your energy with hitting the space bar twice.
It is the html. Or more precisely it's the way your browser renders the html. You can view the source if you want, and you'll see that the number of spaces is preserved.
And, no, I'm not wasting my energy. One, it takes a negligible amount of extra time or effort to hit the spacebar twice (I spend much more time thinking than typing). And two, it makes it easier for me to look over what I've written. Now if I really cared how it looked to others I'd use two entities between every sentence. That would be a waste. Plus it would do weird things with line breaks.
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I double space. It's a habit, and I'm not sure I could change it. I don't think I want to, either. I am fairly sure that the word processors I use (usually Microsoft Word) fixes it if the extra space happens to land at the beginning of a line. I think I'll continue to use the double space because it acts as a sort of mental end point for my thoughts. If I ever find that I need to submit something with only one space between sentences, I'll just type as usual and use find and replace to fix it later.
I had a keyboarding class in high school, but it was one of the last years those typewriters were used. They were replaced by computers while I was still there. I don't remember why I was taught the two-space rule--it was just what I was taught and have never heard anything different since then.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
How bizarre. I read this thread, exclaimed to Tony "but why wouldn't you use double spaces?" and it turns out.... he's always used single spaces.
I've always been taught double spaces, he's been taught single - and he got taught typing ten years before I did.
He also always types single spacing after full stops for his manuscripts - and that's how they get published too.
Huh. Guess I got taught wrong.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
In a collaborative writing project earlier this year, I had to go into two pages of type from one member of the group and edit out all the double spaces after the sentences because his section looked different from the rest of the 12 page paper. He was indignant. He was the only one of 6 people who had done it.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike: I line things up with spaces all the time. But it's always in monospace font, and I use a text editor (not a word processor) that is designed to do it efficiently.
It sounds like you're talking about writing code, which is entirely different from creating documents which are intended to be read.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Much of the typographic treatment that rings true to me...
There have been many nerdy things said on Hatrack. This is among the nerdiest.
Thanks for justifing the surge of pride I had for agreeing with Tom.
*cringes at the idea of using monospacing on purpose*
Even today's "propotional" fonts are do not give perfect letter spacing & kerning. In my work as a signmaker, I will type out some copy, and frequently have to manually adjust the spacing in the words. Windows true-type fonts are the worst offenders The specially designed typefaces for our sign software are mostly ok, but still need the occasional nudge.
My order of priority when it come to displaying written copy for others to read is: Clarity. Smoothness. That is, not having one single thing cause the reader to stop and notice that it is out of place.
posted
Oh, nonono! You used 'em correctly! I was just poking fun at a tendency I've noticed in the past among printers to make signs that say things like:
quote:"Absolutely" no Checks!
Sorry for being unclear!
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: "Proportional" is indeed the correct term.
Yes, after some digging in the Wiki, I see that proportional is the generally accepted term. I hadn't heard of it before. Thanks for teaching me something new!
Posts: 369 | Registered: Apr 2007
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