quote:Since Blayne didn't mention race at all, I think it's just as much a possibility that the people Blayne is talking about are white as black. So, maybe, Shanna, it's your preconceptions that need rethought. Eh?
As others have pointed out, there was the use of the word "cracker." And the fact that I have NEVER heard anyone throw out language like that when they weren't stereotyping African-Americans. But then again, I've in the South my whole life so maybe that's why. I didn't realize white people acting like a black-stereotype and using "ghetto-speak" was a popular thing in Canada. Aside from a few low-slung pants, its a new thing to me.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Its verryyyyy popular.
Hmmm maybe since i live in vermont we are just exceptions to the rule. Every where else it might seem racist except for in canada and canada-wannabe.
Posts: 549 | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Throwing out speech typical of what one would use to stereotype African-Americans, complete with the word "cracker," is not an appropriate reaction regardless of whether you got your video game system back or not.
Why not? First off, I wouldn't have thought of this as an African-American stereotype, I would have called it a gangster stereo-type. But you and Xavier seem to be missing the real issue. Yes this is a language that is stereotypical of a certain sub-population of African Americans. That's not my question. Why do you see it as automatically racist to describe people in a way that is frequently use in a stereotype?
Growing up in the intermountain west, all the blacks I knew were from middle class, college educated professional families. I presumed that the stereotypical African Americans depicted in the media were just racist propaganda, no one with those characteristics actually existed. So imagine my surprise when I spent a summer in Washington DC where there were thousands of black people who talked and dressed and walked like their stereotypical counterparts on TV. On the fourth of July, my best friend and I were on the mall and she was eating this enormous piece of watermelon she'd bought from a vendor when a black man came up and said in the most stereotypical black southern drawl you can imagine, "Dat Watermelon look real gooood, Ken I have a bite?" Is it racist of me to retell that story which really happened to me solely because the man was behaving in a stereotypical fashion?
Stereotypes aren't just manufactured out of thin air. They exist because many people really do behave that way. There are a lot of gang members (and gang member wanna be's) many of whom are black who do say things like Blayne implied. Stereotypes, even racial stereotypes, aren't in and of themselves racist. In fact stereotypes aren't necessarily always a bad thing. Stereotypes are dangerous when people presume that they accurately describe any individual or when people presume that because a person shares some characteristics with a stereotype, they will share them all. It is racist when you presume that because people belong to a certain race, they will act according to a stereotype. It is racist to presume that because people talk in a stereotypical fashion, they belong to a given race.
If Blayne had implied that all black people talked like that, that would have been racist. If Blayne knew nothing about the thieves but presumed that they were black gangsters solely because they stole from him, that would be racist. If Blayne had presumed that it was African Americans who talked like gangsters who stole his stuff without any evidence, that would be racist. If all Blayne knows about these thieves is that their black and he therefore presumes they talk like gangster rappers -- that would be racist. But I didn't see evidence that Blayne was doing any of those things.
Blayne actually knows friends of these thieves so I presume he has a pretty good idea what sub-culture they belong to. If they actually talk like that, would you see it as racist for Blayne to mock them for it after they stole stuff from him?
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I have a friend who met some of the people my roommate hangs out with, "I would not want to be alone in an alley with any of them even if I had a knife" this friend is like 7 feet tall and well built.
IP: Logged |
posted
But he wasn't recounting an actual dialogue. It appeared to me that he was mocking the criminals involved. Its not like he said, "I bet they think they can get away with this." And it didn't appear as if he was mocking the individuals because he used what appeared to me to be an exaggerated caricature of a style of speech. Its one thing to add in a "dat" because its a cultural dialect. But the continuous string of slang seemed purposeful. It appeared to me as a joke, and not a particularly funny one.
Sorry if people think I took the wrong way. But I've always lived in racial-tense places and if someone near me said something like that, I wouldn't assume he was talking about some white Canadian wannabe-rap-cliches. I would assume prejudice and I'd be right, and I don't tolerate it.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
you know its not just Canadian i am nearly 100% certain that in any urban enviroment in the states you have it as well.
IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Shanna: ... I didn't realize white people acting like a black-stereotype and using "ghetto-speak" was a popular thing in Canada. Aside from a few low-slung pants, its a new thing to me.
posted
yo b-boy les go steal a playstation from them crackas FO REALS word to your black homie (i'm black) yo yo yo way to be co-opting the barrier of pc speech (black)
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
what I am saying with that point is that I reserve the right to ghettospeak online and abroad.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
To clarify, I don't think Blayne was neccessarily being racist. I also don't think anyone who assumed his fictional speaker was inherently racist, either. It is a reasonable conclusion, certainly no LESS reasonable than assuming the imaginary speaker to be white.
posted
I have only heard the term cracker used by white people. Of course, all the black people I regularly associate with would never use ebonics. For me, the language is much more indicitave of a certain class (urban, uneducated) then a race. I think the assumption that he is referring to a specific race is more racist then anything Blayne actually said.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
In my experience, I've only heard speech like in Blayne's quotation used by white people to make fun of black people.
Posts: 1658 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Throwing out speech typical of what one would use to stereotype African-Americans, complete with the word "cracker," is not an appropriate reaction regardless of whether you got your video game system back or not.
Why not? First off, I wouldn't have thought of this as an African-American stereotype, I would have called it a gangster stereo-type.
Then you're pleasantly naive, which isn't a bad thing.
quote: On the fourth of July, my best friend and I were on the mall and she was eating this enormous piece of watermelon she'd bought from a vendor when a black man came up and said in the most stereotypical black southern drawl you can imagine, "Dat Watermelon look real gooood, Ken I have a bite?" Is it racist of me to retell that story which really happened to me solely because the man was behaving in a stereotypical fashion?
No, because as you said, it actually happened.
quote: Stereotypes aren't just manufactured out of thin air. They exist because many people really do behave that way.
Of course. There are no doubt Asians out there who are bad drivers, and Jews who are ridiculously cheap. Of course, there are also whites and blacks who have those traits as well, so why do we use them to identify one group in particular? Because it's more frequently true of them? And that's how some ignorant people reach the conclusion that certain traits are inherent to certain groups of people, and therein lies the seeds of racism.
quote: In fact stereotypes aren't necessarily always a bad thing. Stereotypes are dangerous when people presume that they accurately describe any individual or when people presume that because a person shares some characteristics with a stereotype, they will share them all. It is racist when you presume that because people belong to a certain race, they will act according to a stereotype. It is racist to presume that because people talk in a stereotypical fashion, they belong to a given race.
So where's the not bad part of stereotypes? Okay, well they do provide excellent material for jokes.
quote:
Blayne actually knows friends of these thieves so I presume he has a pretty good idea what sub-culture they belong to. If they actually talk like that, would you see it as racist for Blayne to mock them for it after they stole stuff from him?
Maybe I missed something, but from his post I was under the impression that Blayne knows someone who knows these people, but he doesn't know them himself, which led me to believe that at the most he knows that they are black and they robbed him, and his imitation of their probably speech patterns came from that knowledge alone. I could very well be wrong about that, but I hope you can see how I might have misunderstood.
quote:Originally posted by scholarette: I think the assumption that he is referring to a specific race is more racist then anything Blayne actually said.
quote:Throwing out speech typical of what one would use to stereotype African-Americans, complete with the word "cracker," is not an appropriate reaction regardless of whether you got your video game system back or not.
Why not? First off, I wouldn't have thought of this as an African-American stereotype, I would have called it a gangster stereo-type.
Then you're pleasantly naive, which isn't a bad thing.
She's really not. It is a very common and accurate stereotype of most gangs. I have met people from many races that conform very closely to that stereotype, who would use the term "Cracker" in that way. Some were white, some were black. Some were latino, some were asian. I even encountered plenty of Navajos who talk like that, back when I lived near the reservation. And if Blayne is aware of the thieves, through a degree of separation, I don't think it's an unreasonable leap on his part to guess what sort of subculture they belong to.
As it turns out? That subculture is also responsible for a disproportionate number of petty crimes! Who'd have thunk it, eh?
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I can only speak from my experience and knowledge as a young black man. The fact of the matter is that some people will look at me and assume that I speak a certain way and use words like "cracker" before they know anything else about me, even though I certainly don't dress like a gangsta. Most people aren't going to look at a 20-something white guy dressed like me and assume that he speaks ebonics when he's "kickin' it wit his homies". Hell, where does the word "ebonics" come from, and why are white gangstas called "wiggers"? The truth is, the gangsta subculture was originally, and still is in many people's minds, synonymous with black urban culture.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't disagree with anything you said, really, neo-dragon. That subculture is still dominated by young black men, too. But I still think that it's important to differentiate disdain for that culture with disdain for black people.
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Exactly. I should elaborate on why I called Rabbit naive, and why I gave an eye-roll to scholarette's remark. It's not that I disagree with what they're saying. They're right. What I think is naive is not realizing that to a LOT of people "gangsta" pretty much equals black. Thus Blayne's comments came off as somewhat racist (and let me again state that I don't actually believe that Blayne is racist, nor was I offended) because blacks suffer more from the perpetuation of that kind of gangsta stereotype than any other ethnic group.
Sorry about getting all preachy.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by scholarette: I have only heard the term cracker used by white people. Of course, all the black people I regularly associate with would never use ebonics. For me, the language is much more indicitave of a certain class (urban, uneducated) then a race. I think the assumption that he is referring to a specific race is more racist then anything Blayne actually said.
I have heard both races use that word. It sounds stupid from both of them.
My SIL is white but thinks she is from the ghetto. It is really funny (in a sad way)listening to her at a family gathering, as no one else in the family speaks that way.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Stereotypes aren't just manufactured out of thin air. They exist because many people really do behave that way.
quote:Everyone's a little bit racist It's true. But everyone is just about As racist as you! If we all could just admit That we are racist a little bit, And everyone stopped being So PC Maybe we could live in - Harmony!
quote:Originally posted by scholarette: I have only heard the term cracker used by white people. Of course, all the black people I regularly associate with would never use ebonics. For me, the language is much more indicitave of a certain class (urban, uneducated) then a race. I think the assumption that he is referring to a specific race is more racist then anything Blayne actually said.
I have heard both races use that word. It sounds stupid from both of them.
My SIL is white but thinks she is from the ghetto. It is really funny (in a sad way)listening to her at a family gathering, as no one else in the family speaks that way.
Agreed on both points (well, I don't have a SIL who speaks that way but I've met people, relatives of friends, who do.)
I must say though, I much prefer funny-in-a-sad-way to just plain sad, or offensive... Like the way MY brother speaks (he thinks he's a white supremacist now. )
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: what I am saying with that point is that I reserve the right to ghettospeak online
That's fair. But my memory for these things is terrible, so could you put some sort of footnote or parenthetical reminder (maybe a link back to this thread) every time you do? That way I'll remember not to be offended.
posted
Get Renters insurance if you are worried about a future break in, take photos of all your stuff, then call the police. If you choose not to call the police even when you know who robbed you, then you deserve to be robbed... because you know that they will do it again to someone else if you don't do anything about it. It is your civil duty to report them.
Posts: 104 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:That's fair. But my memory for these things is terrible, so could you put some sort of footnote or parenthetical reminder (maybe a link back to this thread) every time you do? That way I'll remember not to be offended.
Thanks!
Only as long as i'm not forced to label my hawaiian pidgin english. mahaloz fo sho.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
My thoughts on cultural stereotypes... in short, humans can't help to make generalizations about others, and to categorize different groups - heck, a large part of sociology is just making generalizations about cultures and groups. This isn't a bad thing, necessarily. It can become a bad thing, when generalizations develop into stereotypes that are inflexible and used to pigeonhole others.
Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
)
![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
