quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: No one likes America playing the world's cop
It's not true, simple as that. I am someone. Europe seems to have this feeling that history had stopped 60 years ago. Hardly anyone thinks that there will be war ever again. Europe wouldn't be able to defend itself against a group of stick carrying apes. I know many people, educated ones, that think militaries should be limited to a SWAT-like, very small units or disbanded completely.
That's because of one major reason, US Armed Forces. At the back of our heads we always think that when feces hit the fan, our big brother will come, with his guns, and carriers, and nukes, and choppers, and jet fighters. And we will cheer and clap our hands in unision.
So
quote: The only way those countries will ever be compelled to contribute more is if we actually cut the cord
yes, unfortunately. But why should they contribute? USA rules, everybody is happy. Europe will start contributing more when the Second Cold War comes, like it did the first time.
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I gotta say, the american expenditure has its share of problems, but those are mostly related to various power balances and administrations. If all this war-all-the-time bs ends in the next few years, then the US powerhouse is an even better prospect for the rest of the civilized world, and still on someone else's tab.
I guess I don't mind too much, except for the part where we defund everything else and keep the military budgets sacrosanct.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: No one likes America playing the world's cop
It's not true, simple as that. I am someone. Europe seems to have this feeling that history had stopped 60 years ago. Hardly anyone thinks that there will be war ever again. Europe wouldn't be able to defend itself against a group of stick carrying apes. I know many people, educated ones, that think militaries should be limited to a SWAT-like, very small units or disbanded completely.
That's because of one major reason, US Armed Forces. At the back of our heads we always think that when feces hit the fan, our big brother will come, with his guns, and carriers, and nukes, and choppers, and jet fighters. And we will cheer and clap our hands in unision.
I can't tell you how many frustrating conversations have been inflicted upon me when Europeans (often western Europeans, the central Europeans tend to get it more), hear I'm an American and somehow come around to the whole "world cop," talk. When I politely point out that American expenditures in defense, along with its dominance of NATO, have kept most of Europe at peace for 70 years now, and were responsible for a relatively orderly step down of the Cold War, and continue to be what keeps Europe safe from political interference from Russia, and they scoff as if it isn't true. As if NATO and the US spend those billions of dollars in total folly, with no purpose, or as if somehow, were the US not the power it is, Russia would act differently than it has, ever, in world history.
People don't like it when you point that out. I say that, then I get accused of being overly-patriotic. As if recognizing the influence of America around the world is the same thing as loving it. At least the Czechs experienced having Russian troops outside their homes little more than 25 years ago. They can see real world benefits to this new arrangement.
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quote:yes, unfortunately. But why should they contribute? USA rules, everybody is happy. Europe will start contributing more when the Second Cold War comes, like it did the first time.
I'm glad that you like having someone hold an umbrella over your head, but we're not obligated to keep you dry.
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Lyrhawn, I obviously simplified the whole thing. You don't owe us anything, don't need to do anything. But you want to, you're the leader and for that you pay money. And remember that it is Poland who never once refused to help, however little help we can provide. We take part in all the missions, we bought F-16s, even though they were the worst choice, we always want US to consider us their friends.
And Ori, that's the truth. Poles and Czechs seem to appreciate the situation, because we are still history-aware. Czechs probably even more, because of the invasion of the Warsaw Pact forces, which Poland unfortunately took part in.
And you said central european, not eastern european. You must get a lot of free beer there Posts: 723 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:yes, unfortunately. But why should they contribute? USA rules, everybody is happy. Europe will start contributing more when the Second Cold War comes, like it did the first time.
I'm glad that you like having someone hold an umbrella over your head, but we're not obligated to keep you dry.
Obligated? Maybe not. But we can, and it makes the world a better place.
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quote:yes, unfortunately. But why should they contribute? USA rules, everybody is happy. Europe will start contributing more when the Second Cold War comes, like it did the first time.
I'm glad that you like having someone hold an umbrella over your head, but we're not obligated to keep you dry.
Obligated? Maybe not. But we can, and it makes the world a better place.
Not for what we pay. If every European nation boosted their defense spending by 1% of GDP, it would be an enormous relief, and we'd still be paying for the lion's share of it.
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quote:yes, unfortunately. But why should they contribute? USA rules, everybody is happy. Europe will start contributing more when the Second Cold War comes, like it did the first time.
I'm glad that you like having someone hold an umbrella over your head, but we're not obligated to keep you dry.
Obligated? Maybe not. But we can, and it makes the world a better place.
Not for what we pay. If every European nation boosted their defense spending by 1% of GDP, it would be an enormous relief, and we'd still be paying for the lion's share of it.
Why should they? It's much easier for them to cluck about how great their healthcare is, and wonder aloud why we can't afford the same standard of care.
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quote:yes, unfortunately. But why should they contribute? USA rules, everybody is happy. Europe will start contributing more when the Second Cold War comes, like it did the first time.
I'm glad that you like having someone hold an umbrella over your head, but we're not obligated to keep you dry.
Obligated? Maybe not. But we can, and it makes the world a better place.
Not for what we pay. If every European nation boosted their defense spending by 1% of GDP, it would be an enormous relief, and we'd still be paying for the lion's share of it.
Why should they? It's much easier for them to cluck about how great their healthcare is, and wonder aloud why we can't afford the same standard of care.
Europe is a museum. To be honest, I don't like Europeans. Now that I live in China, I like to talk to US citizens more than Europeans. You are somehow similar to Poles, I don't know why. All the Europeans can talk about is sex, with as many people as possible, as often as possible. Europe has way too much free time, too little to worry about. It's not good. So yeah, maybe you should take the umbrella and let us have some cold rain.
Edit: except for the people from California. But they never say they're from the US. You ask: Where are you from? California. Never ever USA. Californians are similar to Europeans. On the whole, obviously.
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That's true- I'm from California, and that's what I say. Whatever- America is a big place, and California is just more specific.
Sometimes I just say San Francisco, which the Europeans LOVE. Apparently San Francisco is everyone's favorite city in Europe. Then everyone says that: "your city is so European." But they only say that if they haven't been there.
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Step one: Become a superpower. Step two: Assign yourself the role of international police officer. Step three: Complain about it.
You guys are like the kid in school who volunteered for hallway duty for all the extra perks (i.e. the girls), then realised it means you miss lunch time.
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quote:You guys are like the kid in school who volunteered for hallway duty for all the extra perks (i.e. the girls), then realised it means you miss lunch time.
Wow I didn't realize that I volunteered for all this like a single entity representing all of America as a contiguous decisionmaking entity. Here, I thought I was just an individual who has inherited the bill from a national policy that literally predates my birth.
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I also didn't realize it was solely an American choice 'hey, you guys run the show with regards to this whole USSR thing on our doorstep'.
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quote:You guys are like the kid in school who volunteered for hallway duty for all the extra perks (i.e. the girls), then realised it means you miss lunch time.
Wow I didn't realize that I volunteered for all this like a single entity representing all of America as a contiguous decisionmaking entity. Here, I thought I was just an individual who has inherited the bill from a national policy that literally predates my birth.
Well sure, it's not a perfect analogy if you actually think it through, but then what analogy is?
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I also didn't realize it was solely an American choice 'hey, you guys run the show with regards to this whole USSR thing on our doorstep'.
Yea, but the Cold War ended, you guys kept on going, so we figured you were happy to do it. If we knew how much you were gonna moan about it we probably would have given the whole thing a bit more consideration (though would likely have reached the same conclusion anyway).
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quote:You guys are like the kid in school who volunteered for hallway duty for all the extra perks (i.e. the girls), then realised it means you miss lunch time.
Wow I didn't realize that I volunteered for all this like a single entity representing all of America as a contiguous decisionmaking entity. Here, I thought I was just an individual who has inherited the bill from a national policy that literally predates my birth.
Well sure, it's not a perfect analogy if you actually think it through, but then what analogy is?
It's not even just a 'not perfect analogy' it's stupid and it indicates that you don't understand the position you're responding to.
it forces one to ask the question if you can even see why an american complaining about america being world police incorporated can be perfectly valid, sooooooooo
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Sure, I can see that, from the angle you're coming at it from, that being complaining about your own national policy. That sounds like a fine complaint to me.
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quote:Yea, but the Cold War ended, you guys kept on going, so we figured you were happy to do it. If we knew how much you were gonna moan about it we probably would have given the whole thing a bit more consideration (though would likely have reached the same conclusion anyway).
Horse*%it. If ya'all (since we're talking like this, as though things were so simple) had beef with us taking the lion's share of world crisis-management, you could've stepped up and begun dealing with things too, if you wanted a piece of the decision pie. But you didn't. You wanted a piece of the 'pay nothing and complain later' pie.
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Wait, I'm not complaining, you're the one who's complaining. Stop trying to take advantage of how easily mixed up I get.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: That's true- I'm from California, and that's what I say. Whatever- America is a big place, and California is just more specific.
Sometimes I just say San Francisco, which the Europeans LOVE. Apparently San Francisco is everyone's favorite city in Europe. Then everyone says that: "your city is so European." But they only say that if they haven't been there.
Hah!
I guess SF has to be someone's favorite city. I mean besides all the whackjobs living here.
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I'd say California is a pretty good representation of one end of the spectrum. But then on the other end of the spectrum you have Mississippi/Alabama. Everyone else averages in somewhere along that line.
quote:All the Europeans can talk about is sex, with as many people as possible, as often as possible. Europe has way too much free time
That gives new meaning to the idea of Americans going a-broad.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I'd say California is a pretty good representation of one end of the spectrum. But then on the other end of the spectrum you have Mississippi/Alabama. Everyone else averages in somewhere along that line.
I met people from Alabama. They still say, they are from the USA. Then they said they are from the south, after further inquiry.
I don't know if it was pure accident, but they were very stereotypical. Dad had a car sale. Son was in the Army, but left because of being bipolar. And he got the civilian version of M16, whatever it is called, for his 18th birthday. Daddy had two dozen pieces or so. And they hunt all the time.
Maybe they are feeling closer to the "mainstream" US than Californians. I mean, I judge only by the "I am from the USA" introduction.
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote: By "no capability" i assume you are twisting my words at the point where I said "no meaningful wartime capacity"
Semantics, its pretty clear that without a meaningful definition from your part you'll just shift the goalposts as to what constitutes "meaningful".
Yeah, it's semantics in the sense that I definitely said one thing, and you made it out to be something significantly different, that I don't need to defend myself against.
quote:Also wrong use of strawman fallacy of my counter argument didn't rely on the literal interpretation of "no capability" But a refusal to engage in that discussion without you conceding ground and presenting evidence for your original assertion.
Can you write this out again? The way it is written it makes no sense and is terribly grammatically garbled.
quote:Again, I'll point this out to you, you have presented zero evidence for any of your assertions, and proceeded to contradict yourself. Are you going to present evidence or not?
Uh, I've provided as much evidence for my assertions as you have in this thread. I'd wait until you could reasonably demonstrate where I have contradicted myself.
(I know I haven't, but it would be interesting to see where you jumped to the idea that I had).
That's pretty dumb reasoning, "You haven't, so I don't have to" when you are the one who made the assertion first in an obvious attempt at trolling?
I consider this as a concession, you either have evidence, and can present it. Or you can't, and won't, except to play semantic arguments which I am not wasting my time on; your arguments have been utterly incoherent and contradictory and that is sufficient evidence to show that you have absolutely no idea what in the hell you are talking about.
Again I point out, all you have done, is to make a bland vague assertion, and then done nothing to back it up, presenting zero evidence.
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quote:That's pretty dumb reasoning, "You haven't, so I don't have to" when you are the one who made the assertion first in an obvious attempt at trolling?
You aren't reading my posts. I'm saying I'm going to wait and not jump over artificial Blayne hurdles. I need you to reword the multiple grammatically garbled accusations that you have thrown at me so that they make sense in english and I can respond to them, and/or point out where I have "contradicted myself," as opposed to just saying that I have contradicted myself (seriously, given your reputation, nobody's going to take that at face value, nor is anyone else going to buy that I'm "conceding" for the reasons you have invented for me) before there is any point towards continuing towards evidence. I'm not psychic, I would prefer to be responding to charges that make sense.
If you are either unable or unwilling to make your charges make sense — and trust me, you are a very poor communicator and your sentences often ramble on, overjargon, and aren't very cogent at times — then I'm not going to try to write the world's first English To Blayne Dictionary just so I can satisfy your charges against my argument.
Whatever, ultimately, they might happen to be.
But really, this is totally your opportunity to demonstrate where I have contradicted myself, I'm totally interested in hearing.
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quote:Originally posted by jebus202: I can be screwing around and be chatting sincerely at the same time. I have that power.
You are also exercising your power to invalidly address the issue, so, good job!
Dunno how that's the case.
Let's review:
Rakeesh et al. complain about lack of European involvement in supporting US in global security efforts. I make the point the US took the role of dealing with this upon themselves. (Being polite enough not to go into the fact that they've often over-stepped their bounds in this role.) You make some irrelevant point. Rakeesh responds that Europeans can't complain that the US have taken that position. I respond by saying I never was complaining that the US has taken that position.
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That's where you made your mistake, jebus202. Europeans are supposeta complain outta vastly overwhelming ENVY at the US's Position in the World. Unfortunately, Europeans on the main jes don't care... except some French*politicians and the more whack portion of their supporters.
* And who can blame them? After singlehandedly winning WWII, France shoulda been annointed NumeroUno by popular acclaim outta sheer gratitude.
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"Apparently Cheney recently was interviewed and gave some scathing criticism of the Obama Administration, has a previous VP or President ever recently offered criticism of a ongoing Administration?"
(ex)President Carter comes immediately to mind.
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quote:Originally posted by aspectre: After singlehandedly winning WWII, France shoulda been annointed NumeroUno by popular acclaim outta sheer gratitude.
And that's why a lot of French don't learn English, and when they do they try to have as strong an accent as possible. According to them French should still be the nomen omen lingua franca.
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