posted
Stay away from "morally ANYTHING". A "moral" upbringing is no worse, necessarily, than an "amoral" upbringing. What we're going for here is a safe, responsible upbringing.
I'm sorry, but just because you believe that the Bible says no sex before marriage and you follow that belief doesn't make you "morally" superior to ANYONE.
I never asserted that poor or disadvantaged children are "morally stunted". They are victims of circumstance.
[ January 31, 2004, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Kasie H ]
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Is the high teenage pregnancy rate in impoverished populations due to lack of knowledge or cultural influence?
I think all the schools in Alabama have been teaching sex ed for quite some time (they were at least teaching it when I was in school) and yet we still have major problems with teenage pregnancy and infant mortality. IIRC, we have the worst infant mortality rate in the country, most of it due to infants being born to poor teen mothers who don't get prenatal care.
My husband regularly takes pregnant girls to the hospital in labor, who when he asks them the name of their OB tell him they haven't seen a doctor since they got pregnant. At best, some of them go to the public health clinic to pick up prenatal vitamins.
How is sex ed helping? Can we show that teen pregnancy rates go down in areas that distribute free condoms? (I'm asking not challenging, if someone has those stats I'd love to see them)
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quote: Among teens 15 to 17 years old, 46 percent of those with incomes below the poverty level are at risk of unintended pregnancy, compared with about one third of teens with family incomes 2.5 times the poverty level or above.1
There is a direct relation between poverty level, education of parents, and pregnancy rates in communities of color. Young people who live in extreme poverty with parents who have low levels of education have higher rates of pregnancy than youths who live in better socio-economic conditions.8
posted
I guess I just believe that if a single condom handed out in school prevents a single teenager from contracting HIV, then sex-ed is worth it.
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I just think that teenage promiscuity is symptomatic of greater societal problems, and, honestly, I think that some of the things that some legislators do only encourage the problem.
Although that's a different issue entirely.
Give kids the whole "Tab A inserts into Slot B, and that's how babies are made" course of instruction.
But I object to the addition of "and here's how to enjoy sex, and here's how to make out without have actual vaginal intercourse, and for those of you unsure about your orientation, here's information on homosexual acts."
I also object to schools connecting children to organizations that will teach them these things, and then denying responsibility.
Posts: 575 | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Stay away from "morally ANYTHING". A "moral" upbringing is no worse, necessarily, than an "amoral" upbringing.
Well, we disagree strongly here, but we don't disagree on the fist part of your statement. Public schools shouldn't teach sexual morality.
The problem is that I view giving them free condoms as sending them a very clear message - "We have told you that sex can be bad for you, but we're going to give you this because you figure you're going to do it anyway." To me, that is sending a message to teens that they cannot control themselves and are slaves to their hormones and shouldn't even try to live according to their religious or moral belief system.
I object to them sending that message.
At the same time, I HATE the rate of unwanted pregnancies in this country. I have a great deal of compassion for the mothers and the unborn children. Teen pregnancies contribute to a high number of abortions each year, which really upsets me.
I would love to find the ultimate solution, but unfortunately I don't know it. I can only take what I think is best for my child and do the best I can.
I have no control over what other parents teach their children. But why doesn't the school focus on parental education? My school sends home pamphlets telling me how to talk to my kids about drugs. Why not how to talk to kids about sex? With suggestions on how to stress abstinence, and with information about safe sex and birth control. The parent can choose what to share with their child.
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quote:But I object to the addition of "and here's how to enjoy sex, and here's how to make out without have actual vaginal intercourse, and for those of you unsure about your orientation, here's information on homosexual acts."
I also object to schools connecting children to organizations that will teach them these things, and then denying responsibility.
What's the rationale here? If the teens don't enjoy sex, they'll be less tempted by it?
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posted
Kasie, I meant stats on whether or not sex ed programs lower the rate of teen pregnancies.
As for schools providing information and referrals to organizations that promote abortion, I ran across some interesting things the other day. I'll try to find a link.
Anyway, it's a legal organization that is challenging schools who do exactly that. They say the schools are being noncompliant in their reporting of sexual abuse by referring an underage girl to an abortion clinic. In the case of a girl who is pregnant by someone over 21, they are covering up statutory rape.
They've also been investigating planned parenthoods that supply abortions to girls who admit their boyfriends are over 21, and then don't report it.
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posted
Belle -- the statistics were for Sachiko. I'm not sure if I can find the statistics you were looking for, but I'll take a look around.
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posted
Not in my high school! I went to high school in Salt Lake, to a high school that was uptight even by Utah standards.
But in my fifth grade sex ed class in California, we got some pretty explicit information.
And I've read about sex ed programs that cross the line in teaaching about sex.
And, yes, I do think that it would be counterproductive to say, "Hey, kids, don't di this really, really, fun thing. Which is done like this. Don't do it."
Posts: 575 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I wish I'd had a class like that in high school.
quote:And, yes, I do think that it would be counterproductive to say, "Hey, kids, don't di this really, really, fun thing. Which is done like this. Don't do it."
Look, I see what you're saying, but denying that sex is fun is just a flat-out lie. Kids will figure it out for themselves anyway, at the very least when they try masturbation, and if you've lied to them or witheld such a central fact during your sex ed they probably won't trust what they were taught.
quote:In all 50 states, sexual activity with underage children is illegal. Also, every state mandates that if a healthcare worker has reason to suspect that an underage girl is being sexually abused, they are required by law to report that information to a designated law enforcement or child protective services agency. That agency is then responsible to investigate the possibility that the child may be the victim of sexual abuse or statutory rape.
Because the pregnancy of an underage girl is evidence that she is the victim of sexual abuse, any healthcare worker who has contact with a pregnant underage girl has an obligation to initiate a report to the state.
The important point here is that the healthcare worker is required to report the incident, not investigate it. The responsibility of determining whether or not the circumstances that led to this girl's pregnancy are criminal lies solely with the state agency to which the report is mandated.
Additionally, the fact that a minor girl may be lawfully allowed to have an abortion or secure birth control without her parents being informed is irrelevant. The law still mandates reporting of the sexual activity to the state.
Another quote:
quote:Another educational opportunity relates to the nation's 16,000 school districts. It is well known that many of them allow Planned Parenthood and similar organizations to come on campus and teach sex ed or provide counseling. In addition, many school districts refer their students to these types of family planning organizations.
We have already completed a nationwide direct mail campaign to inform every one of these school districts about the legal exposure they have created for themselves by associating with these organizations. They need to know that should the organization in question provide services to an underage student without reporting to the state, the school district could be brought into any subsequent litigation.
You can read the text of the letter they sent to the schools here:
posted
This is a smart approach by the pro-life movement. Go after the process legally and by letting schools know they could be held liable.
They did an investigation by calling abortion clinics and asking questions.
quote:We have over 800 tape recordings that show how Planned Parenthood and NAF abortion workers secure business from victims of statutory rape by undermining parental authority, encouraging children to lie and promising minors that their employees will ignore mandatory reporting laws. Hundreds of Planned Parenthood clinic and National Abortion Federation clinic employees have been caught on tape expressing their willingness to conceal the statutory rape of a 13-year-old girl by a 22-year-old man. Even though many of these Planned Parenthood and NAF employees openly acknowledged that statutory rape is a crime and that they are required by law to report it, they made it clear that they do not abide by the law.
I have some personal involvement in a case that is ongoing (therefore I'm prohibited from talking about it in detail) which involves a clinic that falsified reports and endangered the life of a patient. (I'm not the patient or the provider, if you're wondering!) As it looks right now, there is a strong chance the clinic will lose its license and the doctor is facing criminal charges.
I never gave any consideration to the statutory rape issue, it's very interesting.
GAH! I hit post too soon. Anyway, my point is that I think the best way to get anywhere in the pro-life movement is to do things legally, orderly, and use the current systems of law. That's what the case we're involved in is doing, and while it's slow and frustrating, it's perfectly legal and proper and will get results much better than picketing or throwing eggs at the doctor will.
Sorry - this isn't an abortion thread. *hushes*
[ January 31, 2004, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Belle ]
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quote:Sorry - this isn't an abortion thread. *hushes*
Good idea. It scarcely need be said that most Planned Parenthood employees would find clear cases of statutory rape as objectionable as you yourself would.
It is also quite possible that many PP employees don't see borderline cases of statutory, such as sex between an 18- and 16-year-old in some states, as deserving the serious criminal penalties it entails, especially when people are in love. Also, there are rules of confidentiality that hold between health providers and patients. This stuff about statutory seems to be a little-known exception. I had certainly never heard of it.
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posted
No, but it's pretty clear that this organization has done the research they need to as applies to state laws on reporting. The investigated every single state and sent FOIA requests to determine the level of compliance.
I would say, they have their facts pretty straight.
And I disagree with your statement, on the basis that too much evidence was gathered that directly contradicts your assertion that Planned Parenthood finds statutory rape objectionable. Certianly they didn't think they needed to report it.
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posted
Wait. What's the connection between PP reporting 'statutory rape' and the debate between abstinence and safe sex again?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I'll gladly move it to a new thread, if that's what everyone wants.
But the connection is that we began talking about handing out condoms in school, and I remembered that some legal organization had established this put the schools in legal jeopardy. Then I found the link and expounded on it.
I'll start a new thread though, if you don't want to derail this one.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Storm, giving out condoms isnt' the same as referring, but giving out condoms to someone you suspect may be a victim of abuse is facilitating that abuse. That's the point the organization was making in its letters to school districts.
Another thing it mentioned was that even if the teacher knows or has good reason to suspect that the student is not a victim of statutory rape, or even if the teacher knows the student's parents are aware it still does not release them from the requirement of reporting the child's suspected abuse to the state
The teacher can't determine on his own if the child is not being abused. His job is to report it and let the state investigate it.
I'll address any other comments on the other thread, but I do want you guys to know I don't belong to this life dynamics corporation and I don't know that I support them in everything, I haven't read all the stuff on their website. I'm simply throwing it up for discussion because I think it's an interesting take on the pro-life fight to limit abortions. It's something I haven't seen tried before.
Back to your originally scheduled thread. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Well, we disagree strongly here, but we don't disagree on the fist part of your statement. Public schools shouldn't teach sexual morality. -Belle
But we do expect schools to teach our children morality regarding drug use/abuse, work ethics, and nonviolent interactions with others! Sexuality affects the ways schools can operate. When teens get pregnant, their education is severely affected!
I think that it is important to give kids the facts about their bodies, including the fact that sexuality is pleasurable. And the fact that it is dangerous. Why be untruthful? And encourage them to make wise decisions as a whole person - physically, emotionally, educationally, religiously, etc.
As a part of any education, decision-making and critical thinking skills ought to be taught. If children learn to examine an issue from various angles (not just "don't do it!" or "use condoms.."), then they will be on their way to making mature decisions. More than ever, children need to learn and use these skills at a young age. You can start with decisions about a class pet or a class problem (with tattling, for instance). You can critically evaluate writing and projects. By giving them the opportunities to learn and practice critical thinking, you are giving kids a chance to make good decisions.
quote: I say we should step up research into reproductive cloning and then ban sex entirely.
Yes, see what society thinks of that. I think that would last about as long as it takes for a man to see an attractive woman or a woman see and attractive man. Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
I see no problem with adults having premarital sex, as long as they're responsible about it and realistic about possible consequences.
So why teach kids otherwise? I mean...I definitely think they should be informed that they have resources at their disposal. One of my friends had to visit Planned Parenthood a few days ago. Granted, she's eighteen, but that's really not far from the ages when schools have sex ed.
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