AJ, I too find that sharing fantasies removes the obsessive power of them. Plus, I like knowing exactly what kicks his hindbrain into action -- then I know what buttons to push at just the right time to turn his attention to me. And he can do the same.
Pretty girl walks past? I know just what to say about it to keep his attention zeroed in on me for the next few hours. Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm still interested in the fact that the notion of propriety has all but disappeared from our society. I still belong to a culture where you avoid things on principle whether or not anything is or could be "going on." I think this is what makes my roommate situation hard for some of you to understand. The inconsiderate nature of their behavior is one thing, but the fact that they are flaunting unwritten rules (these rules actually become written at church schools) of propriety in regards to conduct with the opposite sex is an issue in itself.
I had friends in high school who couldn't stay out after 11:00 because the family rules stated that the influence of the Spirit was gone late at night and it was best to come home on principle, no matter how innocent the activity. This wasn't because the parents thought their children would be tempted beyond their ability to resist after the magical clock struck or that there was anything sinisterthat threatened their fragile souls late at night. In fact, these children turned out to be some of the most integritous and solid adults I know. Following rules of conduct for them was a matter of respect and propriety.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Annie -- I have been wondering about the same thing. It seems that any mention of propriety gets labeled as Puritan or Victorian, and then dismissed. It makes me want to learn more about those cultures. I wounder if some things might be better if they were more like those cultures...
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: Jesus said that anyone who lusts in his heart has commited adultery. Clearly this is an impossible standard.
My husband doesn't think so, but he's been forced to overcome this because he is a massage therapist. And it's not that he has just repressed all sexual impulses He's thinking of writing a book about it. Though it was funny, the other day he was talking about the seductive blouse this lady was wearing. I doubt she wore it during the massage. At the time I didn't think it was weird.
Of course, just being a massage therapist appears evil to some. He mentions this from time to time.
The culture where you are matters a lot. Living with singles of the opposite sex means something different in Utah than in a real city. My sisters had male roomates when they lived in Chicago. In Utah, you might start out with a strictly business expectation, but the accumulated expectations of the culture around you might increase the tension. Same with the carpool. Though personally I'd be happier to save the money. Money problems supposedly end more marriages.
The woman with the birth control pills and the vasectomy, it sounds like there is a lot more going on there. Like maybe she wanted a baby after he was sterilized. Just throwing out a possibility, not claiming that it really is the case. We don't know if he had the vasectomy before they were married anyhow.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
There was a general sense of propriety in generations before ours. But from what I can see in our culture, most of that has disappeared from our society. Most people feel it is too restricting and that personal freedom is more important than what they view as "arbitrary preventative measures". I also mourn the passing of the sense of propriety, but I will try to teach such things to my children.
The funny thing is, my Mom had very strong senses of propriety and growing up in her household (and afterwards), I rebelled against them. Such rules as "not being alone with your boyfriend in your bedroom" and "not staying out too late" or "not spending too much time alone together in a car" felt too restricting to me and I didn't have the wisdom then to give up doing what I wanted because it might lead to "trouble". Incidentally, it did lead to "trouble" for me. It is hard to teach your children wisdom that you yourself did not have.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:we both have noticed in our lives before we got married that when we got close to someone of the opposite sex, we usually developed feeling for them
Maybe us females in engineering are just wierd...
far as the "thought" vs "action" thing, probably the reason why I fall so extremely on the "action" side of things is because as I've stated before I have seen the "thought" thing taken to near the rediculous extremes that Theca describes above.
posted
I think thoughts and actions complement each other. Like two feet walking in whatever direction they go. Same with the video games and the violence, or media and whatever behavior we are encouraging or complaining about.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
And lest anyone bring up the argument that strict rules are what cause people to mystify sex and get in more trouble than they would have, it's important to note the sheer numbers of the issue. Sexual liberation got a lot of people out of their "repressive" lifestyles, but incidences of teen pregnancy, divorce and abandonment, and STDs have skyrocketed since then. Boy, good thing we're not repressed anymore.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Annie, I should chime in that I find that situation to be unbelievably rude and inappropriate. Similarly, I had a roommate that would make out on the couch of our shared apartment rather than take her fiance to the bedroom, just because it would be improper to be in that room alone with him. (From what I could see, it wasn't the setting that was improper. ) This, however, made studying in the kitchen an impossibility, and I still resent being made to feel unwelcome in my own space.
If she wants to push the envelope of the shared rules, she should push it right out into getting her own apartment.
Sorry you have to put up with such interpersonal shenanigans.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
AJ -- I've seen more harm done because people didn't curtail their passions than by over-curtailing them.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: Annie, I should chime in that I find that situation to be unbelievably rude and inappropriate. Similarly, I had a roommate that would make out on the couch of our shared apartment rather than take her fiance to the bedroom, just because it would be improper to be in that room alone with him. (From what I could see, it wasn't the setting that was improper. ) This, however, made studying in the kitchen an impossibility, and I still resent being made to feel unwelcome in my own space.
CT, I know the feeling.
Posts: 3956 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
As a general note, I'm wondering whether or not individual responses to this sort of thing may vary enough that what is best for one person might not be best for all.
Perhaps there is no general rule in this, perhaps what is dangerous for some is innocuous for others, and vice versa?
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
CT what I suspect though is the people who do have self control are more often the ones that over compensate by making the restrictive rules, and the people who don't and where the rules would actually be helpful aren't going to follow them anyway.
posted
I'm frankly astonished that Annie wasn't valued enough as a friend and a human being to have her discomfort respected. That actually makes me quite mad.
----------------------------------- at celia AND AJ (Hi, guys! Long time ...)
posted
My best friend is male. And married. We’ve spent many hours alone together, we’ve traveled to conferences together, and he’s spent the night at my house, both with and without his wife (who I also love dearly.) There is no way either of us would do anything to damage his marriage (or my upcoming one). One, we’re not interested in each other that way. Two, if either of us were we’d squelch it, because it would be completely inappropriate. I love both of them like members of my own family. Actually, I think of them as members of my family (and so does the rest of my family, to some extent.) And I’m happy as a clam that they and Bob are getting along, because there’s no bloody way I’m giving up my not-technically-related twin brother just because I’m getting married.
posted
AJ, interesting. As I think about my mother, she is the sort of person who just isn't "tempted" by a lot of the things that I found tempting. She was never interested in pushing the rules and couldn't understand my desire to. While I believed in the same "end result" as she, I wanted to have my cake and eat it to, so to speak. You see, I believed in chastity, but I wanted to kiss a lot. I wanted to have as much "fun" as I possibly could and stay "chaste".
Not the best way to go about staying chaste. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think the best way to to stay chaste is to get married and kiss a lot and have sex. At least, it's been the best way for me. Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dana, do you ever worry about what your congregation would think about a man staying overnight at your house? I would think in a congregation the size of yours, everyone would know you well enough that they would know that you weren't up to anything.
So following that rambling train, would you do it differently if you were at a much larger church where people might not know you as well and might be more prone to talk?
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
beverly, maybe I'm just more like your mother then and maybe my mother was more like you, though it isn't obvious from my knowledge of her.
Other than Gordon and the whole hole-digging incident when I was four I've never kissed anyone but Steve.
AJ
So what I'm saying, is that you are talking to someone who *was* good who *didn't* push the rules, and still got yelled at over "appearance of evil" at every turn. I never even stayed out past midnight until I was 20! And the time that I did that I was home from college with friends I hadn't seen while I was away, friends that my parents knew. My father told me to be home by midnight. Whoops, it was 12:30 when I got home after the movie we saw.
I couldn't make myself feel guilty for that no matter how hard I tried.
posted
Aside from avoiding temptation, I see some of "avoiding the appearance of evil" as keeping other people who might be MORE tempted by what you're doing than you are. For example, my husband is an alcoholic in recovery (5 years sobriety! yay!), but his alcoholism isn't a day to day, moment to moment longing for what destroys him. I can have a glass of wine and he'll have a coke, and it's no big deal. However, because he is a frequent leader of 12 step groups, he does not go into bars or buy beer (for killing our slugs) at the grocery store. The appearance of his drinking may lead some of his guys who DO struggle with the day to day, moment to moment hunger into giving in to their temptations. He feels that he has to be above reproach when it comes to alcohol if he's to be an effective example.
I don't know why the appearance of the possibility of sexual impropriety wouldn't be the same way.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I had a friend who was a fairly strict Southern Baptist. He personally didn't believe having an occasional drink was wrong, but would not have a drink in a bar or restaurant where others might see him.
He didn't do this to hide the fact that he enjoyed a beer once in a while, but so as not to affect his Christian witness.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
AJ, I can understand if your mother's accusations of your innocence might sour you to restrictions. Perhaps that is an example of damage that comes from erring too far on strictness.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Zan, in larger towns the neighbors are considerably less snoopy.
I worried about it a little bit. Then I decided that anyone who was obsessing about who was staying at my house and why needed to clean up their own thoughts. I’ve been very open about my friendships, mjk & pjk have been to church here and the congregation knows them. I can’t imagine anyone who knows any of us thinking anything inappropriate is going on.
I am, however, debating what to do the next time Bob visits. He’s going to be here for almost a week in August. The first time he came he stayed at a hotel, which seemed appropriate under the circumstances. But next trip, does it make sense for him to spend money for five nights in a hotel, not to mention having to drive to the nearest hotel which is two towns away, when I have two empty guest rooms? I’m pretty much leaning toward just having him stay here, and assuming that everyone is smart enough to realize that if all we wanted was to be having sex we could easily find a way to sneak around and do that without anyone finding out.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Don't you hate it when people post replies that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject being discussed? Me too. I also hate whiny people. And hateful people. I wish they'd all die.
Posts: 1631 | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
zgator, to me that is crossing the line into hypocrisy, or dancing awfully close to it. To me doing something like that destroys integrity just as much, because of the double standard, you compell yourself to hold.
Though I guess double standards exist all over the place too and why this one bothers me more than others I don't know.
quote: I'm frankly astonished that Annie wasn't valued enough as a friend and a human being to have her discomfort respected. That actually makes me quite mad.
CT, you are so wise. Seriously.
quote: but jeniwren this leads to the extreme where you live your entire life based on "what other people think" I've wittnessed it. It isn't healthy.
It's an interesting line to tread. And I think I tend to fall more to the same side you do.
And zan is very close to making my list. Posts: 3956 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
No, she said I was "soured to restrictions" in your interpretation, the onus is on my mother, in my interpretation I thought the onus was on me.
posted
AJ: That's why it helps to have one of those balancing bars trapese artists use.
You do have to figure out what is reasonable, and that requires personal judgement.
I think it's reasonable for my husband to avoid even the appearance of drinking alcohol, because he has specifically set himself as an example for others. Others who have a weakness that can be life-threatening. To that degree, he should hold himself to a higher standard.
But it is also reasonable not to have the same restrictions on *me*, because I do not have a problem with alcohol and never have had. I do not tell people this has ever been a struggle for me. And I do not encourage people to stop drinking because it was a difficulty I had to work to overcome. It would be outright silly for someone to look at me drinking a beer and go "Hey! If she can drink, I can too!"
It wouldn't be so outrageous to look at my husband going into a bar, handling it okay, and say "Hey, if he can go into a bar and keep from drinking, maybe I can too." He's not a hypocrit to do this...he really can handle it. But many alcoholics can't. He's set himself as an example. It's not a totally unreasonable leap for an alcoholic to look at him walk into a bar, come out sober, an think that maybe they can do it too without any ill effect.
Gotta balance it and not get too extreme, I agree, but I don't think we should just think what we do has no effect on anyone else, because it does. I think celebrities and anyone in the public eye *should* hold themselves to a higher standard of behavior (not *perfection*, just as high as they can), because whether they like it or not, they are examples people watch.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
AJ, I talked to him for a while about it and I really believe he didn't do it to hide anything. I'm trying to think of how to explain it. He didn't want anyone who didn't know him to even think he would get drunk. People who knew him casually and know he was Christian might get the wrong idea about him drinking. Getting drunk was not really a temptation to him that I know of, but it might be to others he was indirectly witnessing to.
I'm sorry. That explanation sucked, but I'm not sure how to describe it.
quote: I think it's reasonable for my husband to avoid even the appearance of drinking alcohol, because he has specifically set himself as an example for others.
That's along the lines I was thinking. Dana, it seems like in a small church, you congregation would know you well enough to know that there was no hanky panky going on. In a larger church, maybe not. It seems to me like you can be less worried about appearances in a small church.
Is there a friend in town Bob could stay with? I guess that would be asking a lot of someone though. I wouldn't want you booted out of the clergy for improper conduct and Bob is pretty improper sometimes.
posted
Are you worried about me getting booted out for letting him stay at my house, or for how he might act if he stays at someone else’s house? Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
zgator, I believe you and I know people do split hairs. I guess if your friend while not drinking in public, wasn't also making blanket anti-drinking statments in church, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.
It is the people who do make the sweeping statments, and don't follow up in their personal life that I object to.
AJ
(Like jeniwren's drinking example was perfect, if I was in her husband's group, I *would* have a problem with her husband buying beer, even if for the slugs, because he is in the public eye and making sweeping statments on that issue that I am supposed to follow. On the other hand if he was out in his front yard killing the slugs with the beer, I probably shouldn't have a problem with it, because that is a reasonable use. But if I see him buy it and I don't actually know it is for the slugs then I make an assumption based on appearance.)
Dana I think all you need to do is preach a sermon on the issue explaining why bob will be in your spare bedroom and your problem is solved. <grin>
posted
I think Annie's roommate, the one who sleeps on the couch because she won't stand up to the other roommate, is in for a rough life if she doesn't learn to stand up for her rights, or even "The" right. Either way, her life is going to stink if she doesn't get over it.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
AJ, you ask me if I think you ought to feel guilty for that occasion. Easy answer: no. More complicated answer, while I feel that your mother in particular is probably overly strict to the point of being unreasonable, I do believe that it is good to respect your parents "house rules". You were staying in their home, and they asked you to be home at a certain time. You were a little late, but not too bad. I would hope that the exchange would go:
Mother: "AJ, you're late." AJ: "Sorry Mom, I know you wanted me home by midnight, I lost track of time." Mother: "That's OK. I see that you came home pretty close to when I asked you to. You are an adult now, and I am not going to make a big deal out of a half hour."
I am thinking it probably didn't go that way.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Zan's probably right about the bigger church thing... Our church is about 3,000 or so, and when our pastor was engaged, you wouldn't believe the number of stupid rumors. Really. It was insane. Only people who didn't know Bob (our pastor, not Dana's beloved) would ever believe any of it, and in a church that big, it's easy to not know Bob or his sweet, lovely wife well.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Banna, I COMPLETELY sympathize with you about that. My mom still gives me "rules" when my husband and I visit, and threatens to make us leave if we don't follow them. There's a reason we'll NEVER see her again.
I'm talking rules like this. We get up in the morning, she's gone to work, and there's a full-sized sheet of paper on the table listing the CHORES we have to do while we're visiting. It's scary. Like I wouldn't clean while she was gone without her MAKING me. Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Monkeys]](graemlins/monkeys.gif)
![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
He's thinking of writing a book about it. Though it was funny, the other day he was talking about the seductive blouse this lady was wearing. I doubt she wore it during the massage. At the time I didn't think it was weird. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
) This, however, made studying in the kitchen an impossibility, and I still resent being made to feel unwelcome in my own space.![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
at celia AND AJ ![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
