quote:I'll summerize the major points made by my side of the argument:
Actually, as best I can tell, no one else is on your side of this argument in this thread.
quote:People who are released from prison have served their alloted sentance, and any persecution then on does nothing but push them back into their old lifstyle.
People who are releaded from prison often haven't served their alloted sentence yet, and the law imposes some lifetime sanctions on most felons (no gun ownership or possession allowed, no voting in some states, etc.).
quote:People trying to get jobs are the ones who are trying to change their life.
And society and employers should help them, as long as they can do so without endangering others.
quote:Certain crimes are the result of diseases that, although can only be treated and with that person's cooperation, musn't be held against the person, just taken into account (IE: Drug addiction, pedophilia, etc.).
Please don't ever insult the victims of child molestation again like that. While it's true that most molestors were molested themselves, it's also true that most molestation victims do not become molestors.
Child molestation isn't "sick," it's "sickening," and until society starts to understand the difference we won't ever get a handle on the problem. They can control their actions; they choose not to.
They're might be psycholigical factors or disorders that cause them to choose that way, but the cause of each incident is the molestor deciding to ruin a child's life.
We don't say adult rapists are merely acting from a disease, even though their sexual drive is screwed up. Why do people give that excuse to some of the worst predators in the world?
quote:People who are releaded from prison often haven't served their alloted sentence yet, and the law imposes some lifetime sanctions on most felons (no gun ownership or possession allowed, no voting in some states, etc.).
No, they have served their sentence. You're speaking of cases where the sentence is something along the lines of "20-25 years with the possibility of parole in 15."
quote:And society and employers should help them, as long as they can do so without endangering others.
So we agree. See? there are people on my side.
quote:Please don't ever insult the victims of child molestation again like that. While it's true that most molestors were molested themselves, it's also true that most molestation victims do not become molestors.
Child molestation isn't "sick," it's "sickening," and until society starts to understand the difference we won't ever get a handle on the problem. They can control their actions; they choose not to.
They're might be psycholigical factors or disorders that cause them to choose that way, but the cause of each incident is the molestor deciding to ruin a child's life.
We don't say adult rapists are merely acting from a disease, even though their sexual drive is screwed up. Why do people give that excuse to some of the worst predators in the world?
When did I ever insult the victims? Child molestors have a mental disease. I never said they couldn't control themselves, I said the opposite. I said it should be taken into account.
Adult rapists have nothing to do with child molestors. They are two completely different things and only have two things in common: sex and the victim not wanting to do it.
In fact, there are two types of people considered child molestors by the law. Using famous examples you have the R. Kelly/ Charles Chaplin molestors who like girls around 15-18 years old, and you have the Michael Jackson child molestors. The difference in those is that the Kelly/Chaplin type doesn't rape at all. By the way, the Kelly/Chaplin age difference was the common age difference between husband and wife for the majority of the middle ages.
I'm not trying to justify either one, but I am saying your perspective is way out of wack.
Posts: 238 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:No, they have served their sentence. You're speaking of cases where the sentence is something along the lines of "20-25 years with the possibility of parole in 15."
No, I'm speaking of about 20 different combinations of things, including split sentences, suspended sentences, indefinite sentences, parole, supervised release, and halfway houses. Further, there are lifetime sanctions on almost all felons, including registration requirements, notification requirements, gun ownership restriction, and others.
quote:So we agree. See? there are people on my side.
How on earth does this correlate to your saying someone can't be a Christian if they take a felon's record into account when hiring?
quote:Adult rapists have nothing to do with child molestors. They are two completely different things and only have two things in common: sex and the victim not wanting to do it.
In fact, there are two types of people considered child molestors by the law. Using famous examples you have the R. Kelly/ Charles Chaplin molestors who like girls around 15-18 years old, and you have the Michael Jackson child molestors. The difference in those is that the Kelly/Chaplin type doesn't rape at all. By the way, the Kelly/Chaplin age difference was the common age difference between husband and wife for the majority of the middle ages.
I'm not trying to justify either one, but I am saying your perspective is way out of wack.
Child molestation is not the "result of disease." It is a conscious choice. It's just another excuse that makes people less responsible for their actions. We call it a disease because we can't understand those motivations. It doesn't mean it is one.
The suggestion that molestation is caused by a disease is an insult to every single survivor of sexual abuse who does not become an abuser.
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Either way, they still pay their debt to society if a judge decides their debt is less than originally thought.
quote:How on earth does this correlate to your saying someone can't be a Christian if they take a felon's record into account when hiring?
First off, I never said that. I said Christians aren't against hiring ex-cons. I never said you shouldn't take their past into account at all. I said if they show remorse, you don't take it into account. If a guy comes in and says "I robbed a bank, and my only regret was getting caught. Can I have access to your cash registers now?" you don't hire them.
quote:Child molestation is not the "result of disease." It is a conscious choice. It's just another excuse that makes people less responsible for their actions. We call it a disease because we can't understand those motivations. It doesn't mean it is one.
What kind of idiot idea is that? Oh yeah, these people CHOOSE to be something that's despised by society! You probably think the same thing about homosexuals, don't you? The only reason someone would be a pedophile is if that's what they are. If you could just all of a sudden choose to not be a pedophile and start being attracted to women, there would be no such thing as a child molester.
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It's not a question of choosing not to be a pedophile, it's a question of choosing not to molest children. And yes, they can choose not to. The biggest problem in combating aberrant people, from stalkers to molestors to serial killers, is that too many people think that because they can't imagine doing something heinous without being insane, the criminal can't either.
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Dag, while I think you are probably correct in certain cases, I just don't think you can simply say all sexual deviants can simply change by choice, without help/treatment of some sort. Some have a mild affliction that can be stopped simply by choosing to, or by some sort of small negative external influence (a "close shave", a life altering choice that getting religion, etc.) Others can try, but the "disease" is too overpowering for mere choice.
I think it would be more constructive for both sides to see this as a sliding scale, and debate accordingly. I think both hardlines are incorrect in the majority of cases.
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I couldn't let this comment go by without challenge:
quote: You can't forgive someone without trusting them. I'm pretty sure Jesus said something about this, but I can't think of where to look to give you chapter and verse.
Forgiveness and trust can be related, but are absolutely not required to be. You can certainly forgive someone without ever trusting them again.
Christians are commanded to forgive everyone. Forgiveness is a gift. We are not commanded to trust. Trust must be earned.
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posted
I would be uncomfortable with a former felon convicted of a sex crime at my door. However, I don't like to open my door for strangers, period. It's me and 2 small kids, and I don't take chances no matter what the person says they're there for.
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Fair enough, Book. But I still stand by the theory that the major obstacle to stopping child molestation is a societal tendency to avoid admitting that some people choose to molest children. It's natural to deny, but it's deadly to efforts to combat it.
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