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China's closer to Canada than Sri Lanka is. Actually, Sri Lanka is about as far away from where I was as you could get and still be on the surface of Planet Earth.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I agree almost 100% with bev on this one -- i think you absolutely have control over who you love, even if you don't have control over who you're compatible with and/or infatuated with.
But, for anyone who's ever dated, haven't you ever found out a guy/girl was taken and immediately stopped being interested? Happens all the time. It's an immediate shut-down for me. But what if you were incredibly compatible with the person who already has someone else? What if you would've been perfect together? It doesn't matter, because they're taken. Or because they smoke cigarettes. Or because they're allergic to animals.
You think those superficial reasons are REALLY why you don't fall in love with them? NO. you make a decision not to get more involved than "ooh, cute!" and you move on.
I think what people call "love" is really a mix of timing, compatibility, and maturity.
You have to meet the person at an appropriate time in your life, you then have to have enough in common with them, (and i guess enough differences) to hold and pique your interest, and then you have to have the maturity to work through your differences. It's a conscious decision one makes to "make a relationship/marriage work"
Now, I don't mean to indicate that i think you can make it work with anyone if you have all three -- just because *you* have it, doesn't mean the other person does. And if they don't, it probably isn't going to last, because their unwillingness to compromise will kill the relationship.
Love is a wonderful thing, but that's because we make a conscious, commited decision to be with the other person, not because we "can't help it."
Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote: To me it says something rather different. It says the vast majority of girls 17 and under who marry are not doing so for the right reasons. Honestly, what are the odds that the average 16-year-old is getting married because she is pregnant, and little else? That they may also not be responsible enough to commit for life at that age is a secondary consideration, IMO.
Yeah, I can see that Rivka.
What I was trying to point out is that it's fairly ridiculous to paint the whole "younger generation" as less committed to marriage based on a statistic dealing with 17 year old girls and younger.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Although I guess you could argue that marrying just because you are pregnant and alone at 16 = not understanding fully the concept of marriage and responsible committment.
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Just want you to know that I have been reading the thread. I don't necessarily have anything to say, I'm just enjoying hearing differing POVs. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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I think we all should bear in mind that we are all speaking from experience or our own opinions. Sorry kq, don't mean to pick on you, but you keep saying that it worked for you and your husband so why shouldn't it work for everybody else? Not everybody goes about love the same way just like we all have different learning styles....visual, audio, kinaesthetic...or a combination! lol.
I think that (lol, remember it is only my experience and opinion, I have no facts...) love is a decision. Yes, there is infatuation and while this is awesome I think there is some point at which you ask yourself whether you want to keep loving this person or move on.(For me the answer was yes and I love him now more than I ever have, even during the infatuation period. Lol, you never know, maybe I still am in the infatuation period 3 years on....)
And I also agree that it has become much much more socially acceptable to divorce now. And I don't think that it is a bad thing. After all it is a decision, and it is your decision to make, whether or not it was a bad choice or not.
Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2002
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There are problems with any stats on "the younger generation" the most important of which being that they haven't had as much time to live out there resulting relationships and setting into whatever we would count as "it" for purposes of discussion.
Just because they are cohabitating now, does that mean they'll never marry?
If they are unmarried in larger percentages, does that mean they'll stay single?
If they are divorcing early in life, does that mean they won't end up in stable longer term relationships in the future?
We can't have the longitudinal data yet. Me...I'm betting on late life romance that lasts a long time.
We may end up with fewer couples hitting their golden wedding anniversaries, but so what? If we end up with people who are finally finding Mr. & Ms. Right and building something great from it, I'm willing to say that the trend is not destructive or somehow bad for society.
If what we're really concerned about is the environment that children are raised in, we should probably concentrate on the divorce rate among families with children and look at the age groups of the parents and the ages of the children too.
But I suspect we're going to find that the data are sparse and unreliable.
It'd also be important to see how the kids turn out before we just blanket say that every divorce is bad. Growing up in an abusive household is no picnic either. If home is a hell you escape from each day when the bus comes, the "damage" caused by a divorce might be a welcome change.
What I'm really worked up about is whether kids are being raised well. If that's tougher in a single-parent household, then I hope for kids to have more than one parent, and/or for parents to not be going it alone (i.e., have SOME sort of support network of family and friends if not a spouse in the picture). But I don't think we can just say "this is best and every kid should be raised this way." Once you know that dad's an alcoholic who beats his kids, or mom is doing crack (or whatever) then the situation changes drastically.
And if we aren't looking at every situation individually, there's not much to say. Sure...two parents are best, unless one or both parents are unfit.
And the real question isn't so much who is committed to marriage, but who is committed to raising kids to be responsible adults. Do that, and we don't have a lot of problems.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote: quote:At each step we learned more about each other, and because we were (IMO) reasonably decent people, our first inclination wasn't to bail on each other when a problem arose; it was to try and work through it, and covered a host of issues; religious, sexual, and just plain behavioral.
My husband and I have done this while married. What's wrong with marrying first, then working out the issues?
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quote: quote:From my experience, there may be certain things that need to be worked out in an environment of less commitment, though no less responsibility.
I disagree. You're not the only one who has had similar issues, and there are people who work it out within the bounds of a marriage.
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quote: quote:Ketchupqueen, while I'm stoked that this worked out for you, again: do you honestly feel that this is how most relationships work?
It works because we make it work. Just like it works for Bok because they make it work. I think most marriages CAN work if 1) considered carefully beforehand (like Katie said, choose who you date carefully so you'll fall in love with the right person) and 2) undertaken with the right attitude and principles. In fact, how is a marriage going to really work if you don't?
KQ, although you never said “it worked for me and my husband so why shouldn't it work for everybody else?” , in my opinion it seemed as though you felt that what you and your husband have done should work for everybody, I particularly gained this train of thought from this quote “My husband and I have done this while married. What's wrong with marrying first, then working out the issues?” The answer to that question is of course there is nothing wrong with getting married first and then working out the issues. But this isn’t how everybody works. It also depends on the type of issues. I’m sorry if I offended you but that’s just how I interpreted your posts.
Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2002
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There was an asymmetry about marriage and divorces. I think that while it became more socially accepted to divorce, expectations concerning getting married haven't change as quickly.
It's hard to speak in such a broad scope about the issue because the default group when we talk like this is middle-class WASPs, and I think that different cultural groups take to marriage and divorce with different expectations and priorities.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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When it comes to divorce, certainly I recognize that there are times when divorce is the best solution. But I simply can't believe that all or even most of the divorces out there are for "the best". I guess I believe too much in lasting monogamy to believe that 1 out of every 2 marriages is *doomed*! So I wonder, why? What is happening? And I think of the children born into those situations. There are so many children who's families are ripped apart, and it hurts them so much.
I just wonder, what can we be doing as a society to help make things better? And how can we answer that question unless we understand better why divorce is happening in the first place? And it isn't *just* about divorce, obviously--it's about how strong marriages are to begin with. Divorce is just a symptom of the disease.
I just think that it is horrible to ruin the unity of a family over such silly things as "falling out of love" with a spouse or "falling in love" with someone else. These things can be avoided and overcome when people are truly committed to marriage. It is this sort of behavior, the "grass is greener" mentality that threatens families most.
I do feel, deeply so, that our society is too focused on "ME" and "what I want" and not enough on sacrificing for things that matter most. Media glorifies new love and blazing passion. Stable relationships are boring, so they are not portrayed. Those who are raised on the media grow up with a skewed image of how love is supposed to be. It is as though if their relationship doesn't have that "New Love" feel, there is something wrong with it, and almost unconsciously they start looking for something fresh and exciting.
Of course the unmarried people posting here are going to say that they intend to be married forever and never divorce. Does anyone start out a marriage secretly planning to end it? But the stats are against us. What does it mean? How can we avoid it? For surely we can, right? Unless we find that the person we married was secretly a "monster" unbeknownst to us. It happens.
I understand a lot of the divorces that have happened to people here on Hatrack happened because the other spouse wasn't willing to work for it, they weren't committed to the marriage. And, of coures, that is part of my point. What would have happened if the other party had been passionately committed to making the marriage work?
Yes, there are always going to be divorces for good reason--especially in cases of abuse, one or more of the partners being too "ill" for a stable family to be possible. But I just *can't* believe that the majority of divorces are for those reasons. So I tend to be concerned about a general lack of committment to marriage in society--especially when children are involved.
So, yeah. I'm totally biased. It colors everything in how I view this issue. But mentally, I know it is more complex than that. I know that even if the things I mentioned before are the root of the problem, they can lead to making people more and more "ill" over time, to the point where they just don't know how to function together and they end up hurting everyone around them because they are so miserable.
I dunno. I have far too little actual experience to understand all the different sorts of reasons divorces happen. For most of us, the only info we have is anecdotal--and it varies widely. I just wish with all my heart that there were less children who had to deal with torn families--whatever the reason. I don't think any of us can deny the hurt and damage caused by widespread divorce *and* unhappy marriages.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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stacey: I never said that's how it works for everyone. And I think it's unreasonable for you to jump on me for relating what happens in my marriage when I was responding to another account of one marriage. If you're going to refute one set of anecdotes based on personal experience, you should refute them all-- and this thread is full of them.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:I would never settle for anything because I always thought "Yes, I have this much but maybe I could have more",
This reminds me of Dave Barry's "theory" about men and commitment. He said something to the effect that men are afraid to commit to a relationship because out there somewhere there *might* be a hot tub full of super models, and he's not going to be able to participate. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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bev, you might be interested in this. It’s a company founded by a professor at the University of Minnesota who was doing work on identifying factors that strengthen marriages vs. factors that lead to divorce. He developed several questionnaires for use in his research projects that he later made available to counselors and clergy for use in premarital counseling. If you click on “research” on the top menu bar there are links to several studies and articles about studies on marital satisfaction, divorce, and related issues.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Thanks for the link! Dana, that PREPARE questionaire sounds like such a wonderful idea. I wish more people knew about it. I think it is cool that some religious organizations require couples to take it before allowing them to marry. Kinda like a blood test.
I thought this statement by Dr. Bartusis was interesting:
quote:One of the big problems among couples is they’re afraid to ask each other questions. They want the relationship so badly, they don’t want to find anything negative that suggests it may not work out. They find this person who has some of the qualities they’re looking for and fantasize the rest. After they get married…surprise!
This is the sort of "blindness" that love causes, and one of the reasons why I tend to side towards rivka's POV. I'm sure there are people out there who are so level-headed they can think straight even when they are head-over-heels, but I certainly ain't one of them. I've learned *not* to trust my judgement when I'm twitterpated.
But since most of us really do intend to marry someone we are passionately in love with, we need to be extra-careful about compatability issues.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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