posted
Its just that Bill Gates is terrible at what is supposed to be doing, i.e. making software, although very good at making software that is obsolete within a few years of production and was never that great to begin with. I'll stick with my iBook, which is four years old and works very well indeed, although the keyboard keeps breaking.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
You know, Pel, I'm not that fond of Microsoft myself. But you might want to reconsider just spouting out the Linux party line. Do you even know why Windows is bad? (Apart from being made by Micro$oft, that is?) Considering you have never written a line of code in your life, do you really think you have the understanding to tell whether MS is doing a good job or not? Especially when you consider this deeply thoughtless comment :
quote:software that is obsolete within a few years of production
Um, yeah. And on your computer is how much software that is more than 'a few years' old? Dude, the day you are capable of making an operating system that works well on the machines of five years later, you can make this criticism. Not before.
As for 'never that great to begin with', Windows has the vast advantage that it gets the job done. Without unnecessary fuss, muss or bother. It doesn't have the power for really deep stuff, but then again, how often do you need anything more than a web browser, anyway?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
My software, Macm not Linux, is faster, easier and curiously more satisfying than the Windows I use at school. I can’t do better than Bill Gates, but Steve Jobs can, and that is good enough for me.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
"More satisfying" is of course a self-fulfilling prophecy, but it does not occur to you that faster could be the hardware (school computers being notoriously bad, not to mention full of spyware) and 'easier' could be in what you're used to? After all, 90% of the OS market disagrees with you; they can't all be blinded by Micro$oft propaganda.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
You probably didn't notice either that your average Mac costs at least twice as much as a comparable PC. If you're not paying the bills, I can see how that wouldn't make too much of a difference, but to me it sure does.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
The mac also lasts twice as long (mine is actually about six years old, being used when I bought it, my parents Dell is about three years old, guess which works better?)
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
KoM, there is more to the Microsoft kingdom than propaganda, there is also rigged compatibility, or, there used to be. Still is somewhat. Perhaps the majority of people are unwilling to make the sacrifices needed to use a mac (unreadable e-mail attachments sent from Microsoft computers, difficult viewing of certain sites.) Note that, while I have explorer, I use safari, because has fewer bugs (and prettier colors, although this is secondary.)
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Perhaps the majority of people are unwilling to make the sacrifices needed to use a mac...
The fact that you only list two sacrifices indicates that you have no idea what those sacrifices are.
Home users are not the primary Windows market. And Apple, quite frankly, has no understanding of the corporate market and has failed miserably at producing a computer that corporations might want to buy.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:The mac also lasts twice as long (mine is actually about six years old, being used when I bought it, my parents Dell is about three years old, guess which works better?)
Irrelevant. If someone needs a computer *now*, and can only afford a PC, guess which company they're going to buy from? I'll give you a hint: they won't buy the one they can't afford just because it lasts longer.
And I can't imagine that's an uncommon situation for computer buyers.
Posts: 283 | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: My software, Macm not Linux, is faster, easier and curiously more satisfying than the Windows I use at school. I can’t do better than Bill Gates, but Steve Jobs can, and that is good enough for me.
Well, I don't know about you all, but that explains *everything* to me!
Bet you're proud of your "twice as long" lasting Mac while you use the six programs that are available on it.
You don't know how tempted I am to start a raging debate on this, a debate that cannot be won byt either side under normal conditions anyway. But I've seen how your debates go, so I think I'll have better luck debating it with my neighbor's dog.
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Perhaps the majority of people are unwilling to make the sacrifices needed to use a mac
Well, why should they? If you have to make sacrifices to use a given product, how good is it? You might as well say that most people are unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary to use a bike, like, for example, having to pedal and being able to only go short distances. Sure, that's true, but it's not an argument for why a bike is better than a car.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
For some, the benefits of a Mac don't outweigh the price. Or, like me, price isn't an issue, but I just don't like Macs. They annoy me. I find them much more cumbersome than PCs; I had to use one when I was working for the indie label.
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: You know, Pel, I'm not that fond of Microsoft myself. But you might want to reconsider just spouting out the Linux party line. Do you even know why Windows is bad? (Apart from being made by Micro$oft, that is?) Considering you have never written a line of code in your life, do you really think you have the understanding to tell whether MS is doing a good job or not?
I don't know what is more advanced or exciting or important in programing, but I do know that every time I use my PC I have moment in which I look around for my hammer with thoughts of destruction on my mind. My apple never gives me that urge. You can say its me, and it probably is, but for my purposes, Apple does a better job, and I don't have to be a programmer to tell you that.
By your argument, we all have to be programmers in order to even begin criticising microsoft. I think you probably share this view with the people at microsoft, however you have to acknowledge that not everyone has the time for or interest in programming that you do. I think Pelegius doesn't know what he is talking about, but his opinion IS valid when he is talking about what effects him more than you. Maybe he was just being Pelegius and couching his own personal complaints as if they were universal problems of mankind.
Nevertheless, I think your attitude is very close to what I hate about microsoft and their products: You know nothing, we must not listen to you, do what we want... ooops we futzed everything up... oh well. I can't back that up with any kind of code, but that's how it makes me feel. Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:I don't know what is more advanced or exciting or important in programing, but I do know that every time I use my PC I have moment in which I look around for my hammer with thoughts of destruction on my mind. My apple never gives me that urge.
This is a personality flaw.
quote:You know nothing, we must not listen to you, do what we want... ooops we futzed everything up...
Ironically, this complaint is much more valid for Apple, which has for years assumed that its users are not only idiots but unable to handle simple choices. Apple's interface, for good and bad, is all about the removal of obvious choice.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: By your argument, we all have to be programmers in order to even begin criticising microsoft. I think you probably share this view with the people at microsoft, however you have to acknowledge that not everyone has the time for or interest in programming that you do. I think Pelegius doesn't know what he is talking about, but his opinion IS valid when he is talking about what effects him more than you. Maybe he was just being Pelegius and couching his own personal complaints as if they were universal problems of mankind.
I think you've got the crux of it right there. If you find one OS (or anything, really) easier, more comfortable, more suited to you, whatever, nobody can tell you that you're wrong. There are certainly concrete things about which we could argue . . . software titles, coding issues, development issues, whatever . . . with hard facts, and in such a debate, it would be foolish to argue with an expert. But it would be foolish for any expert to tell you you are wrong when you say, "I like this."
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'd like to note that in the post Orincoro quoted, I was still discussing (in my mind, at least) the objective qualities of the operating systems; it's only in the next few posts that we moved on to "I like X better".
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
I happen to think Macintoshes are excellent machines. There was a time in my life when I very much wanted one. At the time, I couldn't afford one. Now, though I could, I've found a whole host of reasons why PCs are a better choice for me. We own three computers (not counting our computer graveyard) and all are PCs, and, for the foreseeable future, all the computers we buy will be PCs. But I'm not a zealot. I can see why Mac users love their Macs. (But then, only Mac users ever are zealots, neh? )
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
What's funny is that I, too, like Macs for home use. And Parallels now makes them semi-useful if overpriced corporate boxes, too.
(In fact, I'm actually trying to talk my boss into buying me a high-end Mactop for dev work, since he wants the ERP to be cross-platform.)
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
For the record, I'm a programmer that's worked on both platforms: Deneba Software's Canvas was developed in parallel on Mac and Windows, and at one point I did have two machine on my desk.
Modern day Mac users fall in to four categories:
1) The "zealot", as you call it, that's been using Macs since 1984. Their machine may be deficient, but they've adapted to it and can't see any other way of doing things, price be damned.
2) The person who wants to have a computer that looks good in their living room, and matches their wallpaper, sofa and Andy Warhol lithographs, price be damned.
3) The person who is for the most part a Linux user, but isn't geeky enough to assemble his own machine from spare parts. Also, they like the pretty colors on the Mac. If he can't launch it via a command line, he doesn't need it, price be damned.
4) Graphic artists. Let's face it, Apple has everyone beat in this regard, price be damned.
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
Numbers 1 and 2 definitely exist. 3 does as well, but it misses a large class of uber-geeks (particularly among java devs) who are more than geeky enough to assemble their own machines, but like some of the options on the mac (typically parts of iLife on the Omni apps). Number 4 is just wrong, OS X and windows are equally good for graphic design, and the split among graphic designers is roughly 50/50 (I'm a member of a major graphic design forum that's had several surveys on the issue).
And it leaves out the people who just like macs, such as myself. There is nothing deficient about a mac. My next computer will be a macbook pro, so I can do all the things I like to do with OS X, and still run several upcoming games that I'm looking forward to (I'm not a huge gamer, but Total Annihilation was one of my favorite games, so I will want to play Supreme Commander, and Spore just looks like it will rule). I have also used windows, and done windows tech support (incidentally, for whatever reason mac users seem less likely to call up tech support, at least for both SBC DSL customer self install and university technology services here at IU, making them popular among the people doing the supporting in both places). I use Gentoo at work. I'm hardly unable to 'see any other way of doing things', but I still like my mac, because it fits how I like to do things more of the time than any other platform I've used.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:...split among graphic designers is roughly 50/50...
Really? Wouldn't have guessed... I admit I've never done that level of detailed analysis and surveying myself, but the last two places I've worked indicated the Mac a very strong favorite for them.
- The aforementioned Canvas sold four times as many versions for the Mac than it did for Windows.
- At the graphic design/advertising company I last worked at, which does advertising creative for the likes of Citibank and Burger King, did their design work almost exclusively on Macs, using PCs only to manage the printing because the hardware dictated that.
Macs have their benefits - faster graphic response, better memory management, general ease of use, etc... which makes them much more proper for the major graphic design jobs. I've seen Photoshop files in excess of 600Mb; you try to open that on a PC and I don't care how much memory you have, it's going to burst in to flames.
I do a certain degree of poking fun at Mac users out of habit, and the above post was intended to be a little tongue in cheek and not gospel.
In the end, use what you feel more comfortable with.
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
There has been a fair bit of shift in the last three to five years or so in graphic design; also, the breakdown isn't uniform across 'types' of graphic designer: in-house graphic designers in companies too small to have graphic design departments are hugely windows-heavy; in-house graphic designers in companies with graphic design departments are somewhat biased towards macs; freelance graphic designers tend towards windows (which would be preferred is more up in the air, but cost matters a lot); graphic design firms are highly biased towards macs.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:You know nothing, we must not listen to you, do what we want... ooops we futzed everything up...
Ironically, this complaint is much more valid for Apple, which has for years assumed that its users are not only idiots but unable to handle simple choices. Apple's interface, for good and bad, is all about the removal of obvious choice.
I accept this, but do not concede that this makes Apple ANY different from Microsoft.
Edit to add: And I gotta say Night, that I am nowhere on your list of Mac users. I am not a Mac zealot, I am not politically invested in apple or anything, I am not drinking the applejuice, I am not bowing before the almighty i.
What I am, is someone who has just found that Macs were easy to use, and offered most of what I might need from a machine. I have bought PCs for practical reasons, for games and compatability mostly, and I simply find that the urkesome problems that I have with my PCs make them hardly worth the benefits. On the other hand, my Macs have given me less problems, and are simply limited in other ways. I don't want to be a comp geek, I am a musician and composer and don't have the time to futz with my machine as often as I do. This makes my PC harder to use, and harder for me to know how to mantain, so that I spend way too much of my time learning what mistakes I have already made, much less what gets them fixed!
This is something like talking about cars, and of course you're always going to be right when you say that such and such a car is going to get better mileage or have more torque, or something, but you may not be right in believing that that makes the car right for anyone but you. The car may have qualities to it which make it impossible to use for some people, like its too hard to steer, or they can't take the time to mantain a delicate engine, or whatever. These people just want a ford taurus and there is nothing you can say to them because they don't even care about the things you care about.
In a way I completely understand the programmer's position. As an artist, though amatuerish I may be, I know a hell of a lot more than most people about guitars, symphonies, piano music, music history and so on. But I can't go around expecting everyone to like symphonies and know how to play the guitar and listen to Debussy like I do all the time. In fact sometimes I do see the world with a little of this expectation, and I am often met with bewilderment and personal frustration. Fact is, though it is appalling to me, most people just like what they like and don't think about it as much as I think they should. They are interested primarily in other things, which are more important to them, and I have to just get over it in the end.
Basically what I am saying is that it doesn't cause me a great blow to my dignity to be labeled as a mac-moron or something. I am a computer moron, and wouldn't invest the time in becoming an expert, unless somebody payed me, or I saw some advantage in it which eludes me presently. Nothing anyone has ever said about programming has made me feel differently, just as I am afraid little I have said about music has ever convinced someone to start liking Brahms right away. Life is frustrating like that.
posted
No worries, mate, when I come to power all you dissident scum will be sent to Siberia where you can convince the trees of the righteousness of your cause. Meanwhile we can just agree to attack each other on sight, like civilised people. Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
"Whether or not Kasie was being insulting, and whether or not your tone was more negative in reply to her, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the fact that consistently -- from your first post on Ornery and in pretty much every post here on Hatrack -- your posts are full of condescension, dismissal, and ego." Unlike many posters on these education threads, I have never claimed particularly high intelligence, nor have I stated any academic credentials except when directly challenged. (The instance most people seem to remember was in response to a direct attack on my training in theology, i.e. that I had none, when, in fact, I have had as much as most none-theology/religion majors, which I pointed out. Yes, I did cite my profesors credentials as part of my defence.)
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
It took you 20 days to say that? Aren't you still in highschool? What profs are there in highschool? I just remember a bunch of burn outs who drove ford focuses and drank lots of cheap coffee. Hmmm.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
"It took you 20 days to say that?" Seeing as I have been out of town for eighteen of the past twenty, yes.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ah, that's why it's been so quiet around here. On a totally different subject, do you think you could learn to use the quote function? Seeing as you're so well trained in theology, and all, UBB code should not be a problem.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
KoM, I can and do use the qoute function, for longer posts. Ordinary qoutation marks have, however, served the English language and its speakers well for some time and take a fraction of the time to use.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Pelegius, bumping threads when they've been dead for 20 days, unless you have something very important and relevant to add, is probably considered Bad Form in the worst Captain Hook way.
"Ordinary quotation marks have, however, served the English language and its speakers well for some time and take a fraction of the time to use."
Compromise on the quotation thing: How about you use ordinary quotation marks, but then press 'enter' twice to seperate the quotation from your comment, as I just did. It is hard sometimes to pick out immediately that you have quoted someone in the thread.
EDIT: Also, handy way to remember where the "u" goes in "quote"- q is almost always directly followed by u in English words.
How was Nova Scotia?
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
