quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Mr Squicky:
quote:Yeah, people (and the vast amount of the "Liberal Left" know next to nothing about LDS - although more do now after your not exactly great example Mitt Romney and Prop 8) think that your religion is silly, obviously false and was started by a con man or delusional cult leader. Because, if you don't believe in it, that's how it comes across. That doesn't sound like bigotry to me.
Those beliefs certainly aren't bigotry in of themselves. So long as you can wrap your head around my believing the church was started by a prophet of God, and that I believe that after much time reflecting on it, and considering alternative explanations such as the one you posited. And that I hold those beliefs to be sacred.
Bigotry is when you can't tolerate me or my beliefs co-existing along with you and yours.
posted
Real progressive change only occurs when there is a radicalized polarized group of people willing to lead the charge for real change. Slavery was abolished thanks to Abolitionists and the Republican Radicals; nothing is ever accomplished from being Moderate.
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quote:More like, "I'm -not- a racist, or hate monger, that guy is off his high horsed gourd and I don't have to listen to a thing he has to say or even slightly consider my own culpability for deep seated views inside myself which might have upon further introspection and open discussion lead me to change my mind."
But hey, as long as you can be a jerk for the "right reasons" then it isn't all that important if you are really helping or not.
No, no — the thing is is that we have had ample opportunity to test which way actually helps. It is important that we know and do what actually helps. Respecting people with repressive and discriminatory beliefs under the idea that it has utility in a battle for hearts and minds turns out not to work.
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Real progressive change only occurs when there is a radicalized polarized group of people willing to lead the charge for real change. Slavery was abolished thanks to Abolitionists and the Republican Radicals; nothing is ever accomplished from being Moderate.
This sounds like nonsense to me, begging your pardon. You are confusing being a moderate with moderation. The United States occupied a moderate position during WWII. Some felt we should stave off Hitler, some felt he was Europe's problem. Everyone got involved when Pearl Harbor was bombed.
It's stupid radicals, who kill the moderates that create things like the USSR, Jacobin France, and the Great Leap Forward.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Mr Squicky:
quote:Yeah, people (and the vast amount of the "Liberal Left" know next to nothing about LDS - although more do now after your not exactly great example Mitt Romney and Prop 8) think that your religion is silly, obviously false and was started by a con man or delusional cult leader. Because, if you don't believe in it, that's how it comes across. That doesn't sound like bigotry to me.
Those beliefs certainly aren't bigotry in of themselves. So long as you can wrap your head around my believing the church was started by a prophet of God, and that I believe that after much time reflecting on it, and considering alternative explanations such as the one you posited. And that I hold those beliefs to be sacred.
Bigotry is when you can't tolerate me or my beliefs co-existing along with you and yours.
This.
I'm not sure I agree with this. I might, but I don't know if I understand the intent.
There are religious people who believe that the Earth is around 5000 years old and the evolution is all lies. I think those people are obviously wrong and foolish.
There are people who believe in the literal truth of Scientology. I don't regard their thinking on this too highly either.
I think, by your formulation, that would make me bigoted against them, which I obviously disagree with. To me, bigotry must contain significant elements of irrational prejudice.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Mr Squicky:
quote:Yeah, people (and the vast amount of the "Liberal Left" know next to nothing about LDS - although more do now after your not exactly great example Mitt Romney and Prop 8) think that your religion is silly, obviously false and was started by a con man or delusional cult leader. Because, if you don't believe in it, that's how it comes across. That doesn't sound like bigotry to me.
Those beliefs certainly aren't bigotry in of themselves. So long as you can wrap your head around my believing the church was started by a prophet of God, and that I believe that after much time reflecting on it, and considering alternative explanations such as the one you posited. And that I hold those beliefs to be sacred.
Bigotry is when you can't tolerate me or my beliefs co-existing along with you and yours.
This.
I'm not sure I agree with this. I might, but I don't know if I understand the intent.
There are religious people who believe that the Earth is around 5000 years old and the evolution is all lies. I think those people are obviously wrong and foolish.
There are people who believe in the literal truth of Scientology. I don't regard their thinking on this too highly either.
I think, by your formulation, that would make me bigoted against them, which I obviously disagree with. To me, bigotry must contain significant elements of irrational prejudice.
Bigot, from one print and two online dictionaries:
1: A person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.
2: a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
3: a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race
You can strongly disagree with someone's beliefs, perspectives, or practices--even knowing they're flat-out wrong--without necessarily being bigoted against them.
"Bigot" is a strong label that IMO gets used a little too carelessly. When you call someone a bigot you essentially push them away from you whole cloth, refusing to listen or consider any aspect of their views or motivations anymore. When the word starts flying around, I have a hard time believing everyone using it is looking past their own nose--carefully considering the implications of that label. To me, it signifies a breakdown of meaningful discussion and thus a failure to find any common ground, compromise, or even grudging acknowledgement of wrongful thinking.
I'm not saying there aren't any bigots. On the contrary. There are plenty of people I personally think of as bigoted at least in some ways. If it takes a gut punch to get them to see the light, as appears to be the current m.o. on the Interwebs, so be it. But are you really bigoted against something if you don't agree with it--and even if you think it's harmful? And is everyone who sees you and what you're sympathetic toward in a similar light necessarily a bigot?
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Mr Squicky:
quote:Yeah, people (and the vast amount of the "Liberal Left" know next to nothing about LDS - although more do now after your not exactly great example Mitt Romney and Prop 8) think that your religion is silly, obviously false and was started by a con man or delusional cult leader. Because, if you don't believe in it, that's how it comes across. That doesn't sound like bigotry to me.
Those beliefs certainly aren't bigotry in of themselves. So long as you can wrap your head around my believing the church was started by a prophet of God, and that I believe that after much time reflecting on it, and considering alternative explanations such as the one you posited. And that I hold those beliefs to be sacred.
Bigotry is when you can't tolerate me or my beliefs co-existing along with you and yours.
This.
I'm not sure I agree with this. I might, but I don't know if I understand the intent.
There are religious people who believe that the Earth is around 5000 years old and the evolution is all lies. I think those people are obviously wrong and foolish.
There are people who believe in the literal truth of Scientology. I don't regard their thinking on this too highly either.
I think, by your formulation, that would make me bigoted against them, which I obviously disagree with. To me, bigotry must contain significant elements of irrational prejudice.
Your attitude toward them, and your response to their belief would largely dictate whether you are a bigot.
Bigotry is largely looked at as negative because intolerance is often a negative response. But it's impossible to be tolerant of every single viewpoint. If some dude thinks I should die because of who I am, I certainly can't tolerate them living according to that belief. So technically I am a bigot, it's simply justified.
Unfortunately our language does not really account for that.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
yeah, and, uh, do you still attend to your previous definition of bigotry? Because it was really bad, and that relates to this conversation.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I posted a different reply, then decided that I have no desire to get into another discussion about it. </placeholder message>
Posts: 298 | Registered: Sep 2011
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posted
ok then i'll just reiterate the exact demonstration of your argument as-is
quote:Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:Originally posted by DustinDopps: ... I used the word bigot literally: "a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion."
I don't think you've applied the definition correctly. You demonstrated that the other poster is intolerant of "your" belief. You also have to demonstrate that they are intolerant of *any* differing beliefs.
i.e. Using your application, anyone that disagrees with even one single belief, say the KKK's doctrine of racial superiority would be a "bigot"
quote:Originally posted by Parkour:
quote:Originally posted by DustinDopps: Thinking that spanking is a poor choice for parenting is an opinion. Thinking that people who spank their kids are abusers is applying an opinion to a group and is thus bigotry.
"I think that the KKK is racist and hateful."
There. I applied an opinion to a group. According to your *very stupid* definition of bigotry, I am now a bigot.
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Real progressive change only occurs when there is a radicalized polarized group of people willing to lead the charge for real change. Slavery was abolished thanks to Abolitionists and the Republican Radicals; nothing is ever accomplished from being Moderate.
This sounds like nonsense to me, begging your pardon. You are confusing being a moderate with moderation. The United States occupied a moderate position during WWII. Some felt we should stave off Hitler, some felt he was Europe's problem. Everyone got involved when Pearl Harbor was bombed.
It's stupid radicals, who kill the moderates that create things like the USSR, Jacobin France, and the Great Leap Forward.
Its also radicals that allowed for the creation of the United States, virtually all independence movements are a result of an angry fed up minority dragging the more complacent majority along with them.
Also I'm speaking of "reforms movements", progressive social change. The United States history has a lot to do with a minority of vocal hard liner interest groups shifting policy through maintaining a solid and visible platform.
We have proof of this in that right now in the United States, socialism and left wing options can't even be voiced in public discourse, its center right to far right are the only choices; because the Dems keep trying to be "moderate" and having to shift to the right to catch up to the Republicans or else be seen as "too far left".
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