posted
Now that both the Shadow series has been completed and the forthcoming novels are connections between the two series, I am trying to figure out which series I enjoyed better.
The first problem I ran into with this is that these books are completely different. The Speaker series is science fiction, where as the Shadow series could be considered political action adventure. This makes it very difficult to compare the two because the way that I related to each of them was different. The Speaker series appealed to me on a philosophical sense. The pequeninos do not actually exist in our world, so intellectually I cannot understand the situation, but rather I can imagine how I would. The Shadow series has a view of the world that almost does exist. We do not have an IF and there has been no WWIII, but the situations, relations, cultural attitudes, and even battle scenarios exist in our world. So while I wish there were politicians like Peter who could unite the world under a democratic Hegemony, I do not have the same personal desire for a Speaker for the Dead to speak for a Ramen species. Both series moved me personally. The Speaker series changed my view of the world, of other people, of people I know little about and do not understand. It made me understand that everyone acts as they see best (Ender must have been a game theorist, huh?), and when you understand the whys behind peoples actions, most of the time you cannot hate them. In fact you love them. Shadow series moved me to action. It makes me want to change the world. It makes me want to create my own Locke identity and stop a war. While reading the book, there were moments that made me feel an overwhelming emotion that I cannot explain a number of times. West Wing often does this for me as well, especially on last years season finale when Santos refused to step down. It's a mix of awe, amazement, wish for this to be reality, and pride mixed into one.
So, which one is better? The only answer I will ever be able to give is the series that I have most recently read. So Shadow for me right now, but I am already into Xenocide again, so I will most likely change my mind again.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Both series are excellent, and combined, they make an amazing saga. Since each quartet represents a different type of sci-fi literature, which one is "better" really just depends on which type one prefers. I personally prefer the Speaker series because it is more philosophical and raises deeper questions about the nature of intelligent life.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I like them each for what they are. The Speaker series philosophy is at times hard for me to get my head around, but I still think they are amazing pieces of work. The Shadow series is interesting for the political/military aspects.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
The two quartets are so completely different in their themes and writing that comparing them is apt to comparing rowling and kerouac.
That said, I have always felt (and continue to feel) that the Speaker series is a far superior one, because I feel like the Shadow series is just entertainment, while the Speaker series has actually made me think, and while it's unfair to compare, say, Glory to Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, I'm not a terribly fair person.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I loved both series, just re-finished Xenocide and am back going through "Children of the Mind"
I will admit, I love both series, but I have often found "Children of the Mind" and "Ender's Shadow" to be the two books which seem to involve me least, or that I have the least affection for.
Out of the two, I would say I far prefer the Speaker series, as I felt it says more about the human condition and the frail nature of people. I liked that about the series. Besides which, I've always thought "Speaker of the Dead" out of all of Card's books (not just Ender type books) is his best writing.
Posts: 202 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I really shouldn't post here, since I havn't read any of the shadow books yet, but I was really bored by Children of the Mind, finding it to be pretty derivative of other works and not really adding anything of its own.
Posts: 7 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
My problem with CoM was that OSC seemed to forget some of the "rules" he setup in the previous book (Xenocide).. in that, it was pointed out you could only go "outside" and back if Jane's Iua was on board. (So, Peter, Ender, young Val) Ender elected not to travel. Peter had his voyage. Young Val researched; and yet, all throughout CoM, there is talk about how Jane is "constantly" shuttling people off the planet.. which always made me wonder: how? More then that, Jane talks in Xenocide about being "super tired" after transporting 3 people.. yet, in CoM, she's transporting tons of people left and right continously, despite the fact that transporting three people in Xenocide "slowed down" all computers in the hundred worlds because she used all of them at once..
*shrug* those kind of problems really bothered me about CoM; though I liked the underlying story a good deal.
Posts: 202 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I think the Speaker series was more geared towards younger adults than older adolescents, and the Shadow series is more geared towards the older adolescents. The Speaker series tended to spend more time with individuals, while the Shadow series made groups of people its center. Both are great, but i've always preferred the singular to the plural anyway.
Posts: 1156 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I liked the first books of each the most personally. Then following that, the Speaker books, last ones being better than the first ones, and then the Shaoow books in no particular order.
Posts: 42 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I found the same problem in comparing OSC and JRR Tolkien. I liked them both better than any other author, but they each appealed to me for different reasons.
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posted
I have to say, the older I get, the more I prefer the Speaker series. I used to like the Shadow books much better, but I find myself gradually migrating.
Posts: 9 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by tmservo: My problem with CoM was that OSC seemed to forget some of the "rules" he setup in the previous book (Xenocide).. in that, it was pointed out you could only go "outside" and back if Jane's Iua was on board. (So, Peter, Ender, young Val) Ender elected not to travel.
Not to be picky, but that was never a "rule" just a theory. They thought since Jane was so closely connected to Ender, that having Ender or one of the entities that shared his aiua on board would make outside travel easier for her. Maybe it did make it easier (at first, at least) but I don't think it was ever actually necessary. Just like how by the end she was good enough to not even need a "ship" surrounding the passengers. So to sum it up, Jane got better the more she did it, and didn't need such crutches anymore.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I have enjoyed the Shadow series better. Probably because the series has always been about Bean, a character with whom we can empathise.
With the Speaker series, the story seemed to lose focus. It was no longer Ender's story but a collection of several stories about characters that were either boring or to alien to empathise with. Plus the conclusion was very dissapointing. I think I'll open up a new thread for discussion specific to this.
Posts: 157 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I can't choose. As I was writing this, I was saying Shadow series without doubt, since I love all the characters so much. However, I like the complicated morals that are in the Speaker series, it really made me think about life, human nature, and myself.
However, my favorite character in the Ender universe is probably Peter Wiggin, so I might slightly choose Shadow over Speaker, but not by much (yeah, Peter Wiggin was in Speaker- but it wasn't 'really' him)
Posts: 11 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Just looking at the first books in each series, I like EG as a whole product than ES, but there weren't any parts that moved me to tears. ES, as you can infer, did but it had one scene that really really bugged me as well. So EG is like a club sandwich, and ES is like a otherwise good lasagne that has capers in it. (I do have an unreasoning devotion to club sandwiches and lasagne, by the way.)
As for the rest of the series, I vastly prefer the Speaker series. It has the weight of an epic tragedy that the Shadow series isn't attempting, and it's just kind of more my thing.
Actually, I have changed my mind. There were epic themes in the Shadow series as well. I should go back and re-read Shadow Puppets.
posted
I just finshed the Shadow series, though it left alot of unanswered questions, I feel OSC will no doubt have to write anopthjer book to continue to find answers to 'what happend to the last baby', and 'what will become of Bean and the babies he has with him'. I have to say I thoughtly enjoyed all the Shadow books over the Ender series and can't wait to see how it all concludes.
Posts: 1 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
how can you guys not have liked CotM. Jane is the best character ever and that book was all about her. OCS if you ever feel the need to make another book centered around Jane.......I'd be in line at borders to get it the first day it's out.
Posts: 484 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:More then that, Jane talks in Xenocide about being "super tired" after transporting 3 people.. yet, in CoM, she's transporting tons of people left and right continously, despite the fact that transporting three people in Xenocide "slowed down" all computers in the hundred worlds because she used all of them at once.
Neo dragon answered the first set of your complaints, but let me fill in the rest.
Jane's 'super tired' after transporting just 3 people because, if you remember, at that point a lot of the hundred worlds had started to change out their ansibles and computer networks. In other words, she had access to only a tiny percentage of her computing power. She was, essentially, getting dumber all through Xenocide as they were taking away her brain.
In CoM, she was transporting people left and right because she tapped into the computing power of the mothertrees. If you go reread the chapters where Jane's life was saved, you'll see that she discovered she could use the philotic connections of the mothertrees as storage. This made FTL travel a lock, since their capacity was far greater than her old computer network.
All of your complaints were addressed in the books, and it might be worth it for you to give them another shot.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
No, I think you're wrong I just finished CoM (again).
In Xenocide, the order had not yet gone out to sever ancible connections (that happened in CoM, as Peter & Wang Mu were on Pacifica and Jane had just transported Ender/Val and Miro & others out to the planet of the descaladores).
Now, while they were out there, Jane found Ender and chased him around, etc. etc. and -then-, unable to take the body of Val as Ender wouldn't give it, found the mother trees and caused them to bloom, etc. and discovered they were a better storage then computers ever were (which allowed for her catching of the missile later).
However, before then, Miro convinces his sisters to go along with him to the planet, even though Jane will not be able to bring them back because "she is losing the ancibles" and that this will be their 'master work' the thing that defines their life (which leads to the very funny line 'damn! it's hard!' in regards to knowing you'll die of suffocation).
They are worried they will be stranded because Jane is about to "die" and lose the ancibles. In the meantime, before hand, they note how she has transported people from Lusitania to "numerous worlds" where they can start anew, in colonies mixed of Hive Queens, Pequininos, and Humans.
So, Jane was shuttling around all these ships, Peter/Wang Mu, and Miro/Val-Ender at the same time, when in Xenocide it was made to be so difficult to transport 3 when she had full capacity of the ancibles.
posted
I think the Ender quartet is... significantly better writing. The shadow quartet frequently dissolves into OSC political rants, which the ender quartet avoids...largely because, in the ender quartet, OSC does a much better job of presenting the side he disagrees with. In the shadow quartet, if you know OSC's political writing, you can guess which character will turn into a straw man for the character supporting OSC's views to knock down. I had the same problem with Heinlein... the stories are great, but every now and then, he puts forth a weak argument to knock down. What impressed me so much about card, prior to the shadow quartet, was his ability to write both sides of the argument WELL.
Beyond that, I think the shadow series is much more simplistic in its analysis of people, the storyline wasn't as compelling to me, and the plot points are more "forced." I don't think its comprable to most of OSC's other works of fiction... not that this makes it only mediocre fiction. Its still among the best SCI Fi of the last 20 years. Its just not up to cards usual standards.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Personally I loved both series. Each is unique in its own way, but I feel that many are making unfair comparisons. Yes, Shadow was geared more towards politics. However, this is to be expected. Can one really expect all the characters to return home and everything to be peachy? No. On the contrary, there had to be the political struggle. There had to be the different of conflict in there to show just how it all got started. How Peter became the Hegemon. The struggles they faced to get there. Sure, Card could have found a way to show both sides of the argument to make it seem less biased, but then that would be pointless and, to me at least, completely dull. The Ender quartet was unique in its own way because it was supposed to show purely Ender, while the Shadow was supposed to show a plethora of characters (Peter, Bean, Petra, etc). If he so wished, Card could have very well placed major political struggles in there. But that was not the main purpose, and would be stupid. The purposes of the two, I feel, were two seperate ideas, two seperate times, and although they are intertwined one with another, they also have huge differences. Thus, an unfair comparison would be made.
Ignore me. I don't know what I'm talking about
Posts: 3 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
It's also a difficult comparison to make because the Ender books take place 3000 years in the future where no remnant of our current global political structure exists. In the Shadow series more attention is paid to details of the current state of countries and national identities.
The Ender series is amazing, but the Shadow series is relevant.
Posts: 484 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: ...in the ender quartet, OSC does a much better job of presenting the side he disagrees with.
The Ender series was the first Card I ever read, and as blindly entertaining and exciting as Ender's game was, I didn't bother reading any of the others for years afterward. Once I began Speaker I spent the next few years reading naught but Card. And it was exactly this quality that you've pointed out Paul, that brought me in.
So, Though I've enjoyed literally everything I've read by Mr. Card, and I think the shadow series was stellar writing, it didn't get my whole heart like the Ender series.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I just finished SotG for the first time and I have to say I was moved. ES I really did enjoy, it brought a whole new level to EG, but the rest of the shadow series didn't really move me, until SotG. I think Card did a magnificent job of bridging the worlds between fighting the legendary battle in EG and the creation of a more stable human world in the Shadow series which leads nicely to the more foreign, alien worlds of the Speaker series.
Of course having just read the Shadow series I would vote for it, as it made the whole beginning of the Ender Saga feel real to me. Indeed SotG made me see the books of the "Enderverse" as a single world for the first time.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
The reason why I find it difficult to choose between the two is because O.S.C. is such a master of making the most fascinating, 3 dimensional characters, whom you can relate to and sympathize with. It's his understanding of the human spirit and human nature that you find in all his stories.
I'll admit, I guess I can't truly respond to this thread from both sides of the argument since I never really got through CotM (come on . . . I tried it when I was around 11).
My absolute favorite part of Speaker, one chapter I could read and reread, is the actual Speaking. It's so riveting, and when I'm finished with it, I feel like I've known Marcao, I feel like I could've been Marcao. I think the idea of a Speaking is amazing, but unfortunately, I believe it would be practically impossible for someone to grasp another person as well as Ender naturally does. When I first read it, it stunned me how completely fleshed out Marcao's character was. He was as complex as I am.
I'm not so interested in the scientific theories and such. Same goes for the Shadow series. The global political intrigue doesn't fascinate me really. It's the people, and what happens to them, and their thoughts and feelings. It's the characters that O.S.C. has created that draw me into the rest of the story. And I think that goes for all his writing. It doesn't matter the setting, or even the genre of the story.
So I cannot choose between the two as to which I like best, and I don't think I'd really want to, because I love and hate and pity and admire and feel all the emotions I feel towards real people towards all O.S.C.'s great characters.
Posts: 6 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote: My absolute favorite part of Speaker, one chapter I could read and reread, is the actual Speaking. It's so riveting, and when I'm finished with it, I feel like I've known Marcao, I feel like I could've been Marcao. I think the idea of a Speaking is amazing, but unfortunately, I believe it would be practically impossible for someone to grasp another person as well as Ender naturally does. When I first read it, it stunned me how completely fleshed out Marcao's character was. He was as complex as I am.
While my life is not nearly as messed up as Marcao, I felt the same way; in fact, I'm sure a few people thought "wow, that's the kind of eulogy I wish I had at my funeral" (without all the cuckolding, disease and wife-beating parts)
Posts: 202 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I dont think there is any way to choose. They are both great series. They are different books about different things. However it is almost obvious that people who like the action involved part of Enders Game will enjoy the Shadow series more, as that series is more action oreinted than the Speaker thread. But in my opinion you can't say that either of the series didn't accomplish what OSC ment for them to do. I can't wait to see the new book about Beans kid they couldn't find!
posted
I personally like the Shadow Series so much more because I think Bean--despite the fact that he may or may not technically be human--was more human in abstract terms than Ender. I really felt that Ender was sort of a god figure, and so I had trouble connecting to him, but Bean had major issues, and so I could feel more compassion for him, and I could connect with that charcter as a "real" person.
Posts: 368 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I feel exactly the opposite. To me, Bean seems like the god figure, with inhuman intellect, flawless intuition, an ability to make the toughest decisions with ease, and (eventually) giant stature. I relate to Ender much more.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by tmservo: [QUOTE] While my life is not nearly as messed up as Marcao, I felt the same way; in fact, I'm sure a few people thought "wow, that's the kind of eulogy I wish I had at my funeral" (without all the cuckolding, disease and wife-beating parts)
Your no fun at all
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