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Author Topic: random thoughts about bean in shadows in flight
LarvalBean
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Mainly, I was thinking that Bean would probably be alive. Even if 5 or even 10 years had passed for him in his 3000+ year long space voyage, he is in outer space - no natural gravity. So the moment he started to get too large for Earth gravity, he could have just tuned the generators down. Of course, OSC can probably figure another way for Bean to be killed off before the book starts, if thats necessary (perhaps the fact that he was growing so large caused a hormonal or chemical imbalance in his body which killed him during the journey, or maybe his skull became so soft that he died when he accidently bumped his head and suffered permanent brain damange, or even that Bean choose to die in Earth gravity rather than have his children grow up in the weightlessness of space). But just because Bean is older than 20 doesn't actually mean he has to be dead.

I do understand why neither the descola or going to Outside would actually save Bean. The first would just change his genes - but maybe by the time they find Bean, he is already too large to set foot on any planet. And going Outside wouldn't do anything for him, because Bean already knows his body well - unlike Miro, he's never known what a normal human body feels like. And even if he could visualize it in his giant brain, subconsciously he may not want to, since that would entail the risk of losing his intelligence.

The most logical solution, I think, would be for Bean's ninth child (after learning that he is really Bean's son in _Ender in Exile_) to work on a cure. He fails (in fact, he dies while testing out one of his cures when he is 19 years old) but the work of the ninth child is rediscovered by Jane. She is able to get the geniuses of Path to work, and they eventually manage to perfect it. Possibly with the help of the desoladores (who they are able to talk to finally, thanks to Bean and Jane). The cure might include a sort of germ that is able to kill say every 15th body cell, thus causing Bean to shrink down to a normal size. Not sure how they'd shrink his brain down (perhaps another germ that can shrink neurons w/o actually destroying any).

I think the coolest scene would be when Bean confronts Ender-as-Peter. Perhaps it would go something like this:

Bean watched as his ansible reported a signal. Not _the signal_, the one that would tell him to return to Earth (there was no Earth anyways, he had read enough of the news that was delivered to his ansible to know that it had been completed destroyed in the war that birth the Starways Congress of the Hundred Worlds) but one which meant that someone wanted to communicate with him. He slowed the ship down to non-relativistic speeds, and then activated the Audio-Video link. Bean found himself staring ... into the face of Peter Wiggin.

"Bean?" asked Peter tenatively, wondering what he was thinking.

"Peter?! What are you doing here? You should be dead! Don't tell me the Hegemon of Earth faked his own death just to follow little old me out in-"

"I'm not who you think I am," Peter interrupted solemnly.

"Who are you then?"

"I look like Peter Wiggin. I have his face, his fingerprints, and even his genes. But I don't have his memories. Not all of them, and the ones I do have are fake."

"So you're a clone of some sort?"

"Not quite. The fake memories were given to me by Ender. Ender Wiggin. In a way he is my brother, my father, .. and myself."

"Ok, now I'm totally confused," Bean responded.

"it's a long story," Peter pointed out.

"I have time."

So Peter explained to Bean about Jane, and the Outside, and how on his first trip Ender was able to create Young Val and Young Peter, and then he died leaving his auia to live in the new Peter Wiggin. He also explained the story of Miro, the boy who was able to cure himself of irreversible and permanent brain damage by recreating his old body.

When he finished, Bean ask, "Do you think I could do that? Create a new body for myself, one that didn't have Anton's Key?"

"Doubtful," Peter replied. "Jane says she doesn't think you'll be able to imagine a normal body, the way Miro was."

End scene. I really hope Bean is alive in Shadows in Flight, because personally I think the dynamics of having Bean talk to Ender-as-Peter (the man who is in a way both the Ender that he knew as a boy in Battle School and the Peter that he helped unite Earth under, but also not quite either) would be fascinating. Maybe with Bean's help, Peter Wiggin will finally get to be Hegemon of the Hundred Worlds. Or maybe not.

I also wonder, if Bean ever saw Jane's human body (e.g. Young Val) would he recognize her as Ender's sister? Or would he not recognize her, having never seen what Ender's siblings looked like?

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Princess Leah
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"Bean choose to die in Earth gravity rather than have his children grow up in the weightlessness of space"

Children need earth gravity for their bones to develop properly. That may or may not be scientifically true (and I am far too lazy to research [Big Grin] ), but I think it is mentioned in EG and it's used in all the human-race-living-on-moon stories I've read. Bean would never sacrifice his children just so he could live. That goes against the fundamentals of his character, which is why I would be dissapointed if he *was* alive to meet Ender-Peter etc. etc. Not that I wouldn't cry my eyes out when he dies.

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LarvalBean
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quote:
Originally posted by Princess Leah:
Children need earth gravity for their bones to develop properly. That may or may not be scientifically true (and I am far too lazy to research [Big Grin] ), but I think it is mentioned in EG and it's used in all the human-race-living-on-moon stories I've read. Bean would never sacrifice his children just so he could live. That goes against the fundamentals of his character, which is why I would be dissapointed if he *was* alive to meet Ender-Peter etc. etc. Not that I wouldn't cry my eyes out when he dies.

I agree that Bean would never make that kind of sacrifice. But after thinking about it for a little bit, I realized that he may not have to. It depends on the ship and the gravity generators. Bean could live in one half of the ship, which is weightless, and the other half could have the children on Earth gravity. Of course, Graff and Mazer might have been too short-sighted to allow for this flexibility in Bean's ship, but there is still the possibility of lowering the gravity (say Mars strength, half Earth, or Moon level). Though I guess if we reach Moon level, the gravity might be too low to allow children to grow up normally.
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LarvalBean
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Also, I don't really see how having Bean alive (at least during the beginning) would cheapen the novel. IMHO the book would be enriched by exploring the relationship between Bean and Ender-as-Peter. Also, I'd love to see Bean's reaction to the following: The Speaker for the Dead writing The Hive Queen, and making Ender considered the monster Ender the Xenocide; learning that Ender is the original Speaker (though if he read the Hive Queen while he was on the ship he might have already figured out who the first speaker really was); and that the Buggers are alive and well, with their own colonies, living in peace with humans.
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Survivor
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A combination of weightlessness and calorie restriction could keep Bean alive, and it would be well within the technology available to permit him to remain weightless in his own compartment while letting his children grow to physical maturity in full gravity.

But that does strange things to a person, to be isolated in weightlessness under calorie restriction. Bean might well decide to live out the remainder of his life in a situation that would let him touch and hold his children as they grew up. Perhaps he would not need that, but I think that he would be likely to believe that they would.

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neo-dragon
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All of this speculation just makes me sad that this book probably won't be around for a while. "Ender in Exile" is supposed to come first, and although I'm really looking forward to reading that as well, "Shadows in Flight" is the one I really, REALLY want. And of course, I'm sure Card has many non-Ender related projects which are higher on his priorities list as well. So yeah... It could be a few years. Also, since SiF will probably be (SHOULD probably be) the grand finale of the Enderverse, I'd love it if it were at least 500 pages. "Shadow of the Giant" was too short, in my opinion.

I know that it's somewhat contradictory that my two wishes are that the book come asap and that it be lengthy, since of course the longer the book is the longer it will take to plan and write. I guess I can't really have it both ways. Really, the most important thing isn't that it come soon or be long, but that it's just plain good! That, I'm not worried about though. I know it'll be great.

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Princess Leah
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quote:
I don't really see how having Bean alive (at least during the beginning) would cheapen the novel.
While it would me fascinating to see his relationship with Peter-Ender, it just wouldn't feel right to me. From a literary standpoint. I'm sure Mr. Card could pull some sciencefiction-y trick and have some miraculous device discovered that could save Bean, but honestly, wouldn't you feel a little bit cheated? Bean left Petra, he left earth-- his story is noticably winding down. I am in resolution mode when it comes to Bean's story. If he were suddenly revived, it would violate my expectations, because there have been no hints anywhere of him being alive during the Sftd-CotM series. Jane would have noticed another person alive who was as old as Ender and Valentine. There would have to be some sort of quickfix to show why there was no knowledge of Bean for all this time.

If anyone could pull it off, it's the man who's gotten me to read (and enjoy!) more religious fiction than I ever thought I would be able to without my head exploding. If he wrote it, I'm sure it would make sense and tie in with all the past, and that I would believe it wholly. I can't imagine how it would happen though. I guess that's why I don't write the bestselling sf novels, eh? [Wink]

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neo-dragon
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I know that OSC can always change his mind (after all, I'm pretty sure he said that Bean would die in SotG), but as far as I know he keeps insisting that Bean will either be dead already when SiF begins or he will die right at the start. I don't think there's going to be any miracle cure for him. Bean was doomed since "Ender's Shadow".
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ThePygmalionEffect
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he's right. I saw OSC at a book signing about a month ago and he said (and he was sure of himself) that bean would be dead within the first couple pages. Kind of sad, I've almost come to like Bean as much as Ender.
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CRash
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My only quibble is that Ender gets to appear in another book while Bean doesn't. All I can hope for is a short story with Bean (perhaps in IGMS?) now that he's apparently dead.
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Orson Scott Card
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Come on now. Bean ALREADY has as many books as Ender. And since he'll be in the opening chapter of Flight, he gets a total of 6, just like Ender (since E and B are in each other's books, EG and ES).
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LarvalBean
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That is unfortunate. I looked forward to seeing Bean's reaction after finding out the truth about the buggers. I was also interested in how he would have reacted to Jane (the human-Hive Queen-Mothertree-Computer hybrid), the only entity who rivals him in intelligence.

If Bean is killed off in the first few pages, I'd guess that his death would have occurred before any of the events in Children of the Mind. Perhaps even before Ender hands on the planet for the first time in Speaker for the Dead. Like a prologue so the reader understands why Bean isn't around.

Having Bean dead at the beginning of the story does make sense in one way though. It will be easier to develop his children, as they won't have to be under his shadow throughout the whole story. Also, the desocola could still save _them_. Unlike Bean the children would still be normal sized. They'll have the key turned off so they won't get any smarter (and, since they won't learn as well, they may appear to get dumber) but they won't have to die.

Unlike Ender, who has many gaps in his timeline that can be filled in with more books and short storys, Bean has nothing. More or else every moment of his life, from escaping from the toliet to leaving Earth, is written in the four Shadow books. Thus, if we want more stories about Bean, he has to live on in the future. (The 3000 year space voyage doesnt count, since it'd only be a few years to a decade for him: at most we'd have flashbacks to Bean taking care of his children in other stories).

_Shadows in Flight_ will be a very hard book to write, because, being a successor of both the Speaker line and the Shadow line, it will have to cover both philosophical issues and political ones. Ender-as-Peter trying to become Hegemon of all the human settled worlds (to prevent them from wiping out the desocolodores) would be a good plotline for the political side, but I don't really see any philosophical issues cropping up. _Children of the Mind_ didn't have so many either. The only major issue I can see would be this: what happens when (if) Jane dies? What happens if Jane's Val body dies (which it will, being a mortal human)? A new method for instant starflight could be discovered as well, so its not dependent on Jane's survival - but having it that way made for a very powerful symbolic gesture (that only by having peace between the raman species could the universe be understood and conquered),

Now, if the descolodores had created the Formics (and given them the ability to communicate philotically, as they did the fathertrees) that would be extremely interesting.

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LarvalBean
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quote:
Originally posted by Orson Scott Card:
Come on now. Bean ALREADY has as many books as Ender. And since he'll be in the opening chapter of Flight, he gets a total of 6, just like Ender (since E and B are in each other's books, EG and ES).

But not as many chapters. [Frown]

Actually, wouldn't that give Bean more books than Ender? Since Ender isn't in _Shadows in Flight_? Of course Peter will have 7 books total, if you count Ender-as-Peter and Peter the Hegemon as the same person.

ON a side note, I wonder, if it would be possible to do a book series based on _Ender in Exile_. A series of books describing how Ender falls into shame as the Xenocide and how he deals with it.

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CRash
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quote:
Originally posted by Orson Scott Card:
Come on now. Bean ALREADY has as many books as Ender. And since he'll be in the opening chapter of Flight, he gets a total of 6, just like Ender (since E and B are in each other's books, EG and ES).

[quibble]One chapter hardly equals a book [/quibble]

But I do realize that since Bean is definitely dead by Shadows in Flight (it's pretty much impossible for him to live so long), it doesn't really leave any space for another Bean book, seeing as how the Shadow sequence pretty much covered his life. However, I will continue to hold out for a short story, because I do like that character.

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CRash
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quote:

Actually, wouldn't that give Bean more books than Ender? Since Ender isn't in _Shadows in Flight_?

Well, when Ender in Exile is written, the number will even out again. And one could argue that the short story "Investment Counselor" may equal the chapter Bean gets in the linker book.
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LarvalBean
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quote:
Originally posted by CRash:
I do realize that since Bean is definitely dead by Shadows in Flight (it's pretty much impossible for him to live so long).

Not necessarily true. In space, at near light speeds, the time could easily be 10 or 5 years, or even less (depending on how fast the ship is).

I'd imagine that the ship is first discovered when all the other ships are pulled instantly to their destinations by Jane - because that ship won't have one.

quote:
However, I will continue to hold out for a short story, because I do like that character.
Me too.

Oh, my vote on who Bean would most likely bring back if taken to the Outside: his father, Poke.

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Nell Gwyn
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quote:
Originally posted by LarvalBean:

Oh, my vote on who Bean would most likely bring back if taken to the Outside: his father, Poke.

Erm...are you saying that Poke is Bean's father? Because Poke's a girl. And not Bean's father (who is still alive).
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LarvalBean
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quote:
Originally posted by Nell Gwyn:
Erm...are you saying that Poke is Bean's father? Because Poke's a girl. And not Bean's father (who is still alive). [/QB]

Julian Delphiki Sr. (or however you spell it) is not alive by _Shadows in Flight_. At least, I find the prospects doubtful. Same for Nikolai, even if he went to a bugger colonly world.

When I said that Poke is Bean's father, I am quoting out of _Shadow of the Hegemon_, where Bean reflects that his real father was Poke and his Mother was Sister Carlotta, and that for him Carlotta's cooking would be his favorite food.

I only called her a father to distinguish her from the other Poke, little Petra.

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CRash
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quote:
Originally posted by LarvalBean:
quote:
Originally posted by CRash:
I do realize that since Bean is definitely dead by Shadows in Flight (it's pretty much impossible for him to live so long).

Not necessarily true. In space, at near light speeds, the time could easily be 10 or 5 years, or even less (depending on how fast the ship is).

I had the impression that Bean had only about half a year left to live-- can anyone confirm or debunk this for me?
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LarvalBean
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quote:
Originally posted by CRash:
quote:
Originally posted by LarvalBean:
quote:
Originally posted by CRash:
I do realize that since Bean is definitely dead by Shadows in Flight (it's pretty much impossible for him to live so long).

Not necessarily true. In space, at near light speeds, the time could easily be 10 or 5 years, or even less (depending on how fast the ship is).

I had the impression that Bean had only about half a year left to live-- can anyone confirm or debunk this for me?
Yep, in _Shadow of the Giant_ he had that long. On Earth. That deadline may or may not apply in space, depending on whether or not he'd keep the ship on Earth gravity. Someone else pointed out he might die rather have have his children grow up in zero-g (since they might not develop normally) but I'd question whether he'd abandon them so young. Even Bean himself was about a year old when he managed his escape.
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tmservo
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Yes, I believe Velescue points out to him that he could tie his body to the sides of a spaceship and just grow forever.. but Bean would never do that.. it would basically be sacrificing his children (unless there is some unknown of way).. I can picture his ship having diminished gravity, like the battle school, but I can't picture it being free of gravity.
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Survivor
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You know what?

Card never specified any other mechanism for travel "Outside" than the raw intelligence of the entity doing the traveling. What if Bean just went Outside and stayed there?

Okay, so functionally he'd be dead, since (unlike Jane) he can't both be Inside and Outside, and thus would have no way of getting back (and we don't even want to talk about what happens if we let things that are Outside come Inside without already being here). So I guess it would merely be pointless and bizarre rather than achieving anything. But still, I thought of it so it must have some value [Wink]

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LarvalBean
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quote:
Originally posted by Survivor:
You know what?

Card never specified any other mechanism for travel "Outside" than the raw intelligence of the entity doing the traveling. What if Bean just went Outside and stayed there?

Okay, so functionally he'd be dead, since (unlike Jane) he can't both be Inside and Outside, and thus would have no way of getting back (and we don't even want to talk about what happens if we let things that are Outside come Inside without already being here). So I guess it would merely be pointless and bizarre rather than achieving anything. But still, I thought of it so it must have some value [Wink]

Well, the reason Jane can pull auias in and out is because of her Hive Queen nature. Only the Hive Queens can capture another auia, Bean, being a pure human, doesn;t have this advantage,

Of course if he did manage to get Outside, he can go back Inside, He just wouldn't know when or where he was getting back, since he'd have no point of reference.

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Nell Gwyn
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quote:
Originally posted by LarvalBean:
Julian Delphiki Sr. (or however you spell it) is not alive by _Shadows in Flight_. At least, I find the prospects doubtful. Same for Nikolai, even if he went to a bugger colonly world.

When I said that Poke is Bean's father, I am quoting out of _Shadow of the Hegemon_, where Bean reflects that his real father was Poke and his Mother was Sister Carlotta, and that for him Carlotta's cooking would be his favorite food.

I only called her a father to distinguish her from the other Poke, little Petra.

Ah. Okay, thanks for clarifying what you meant. What your statement initially appeared to be saying was certainly an eyebrow-raiser. [Smile]
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El JT de Spang
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I don't have any reason to suspect Bean would bring anyone back from Outside. Only Ender was weird enough to create the fragments of his personality as actual beings.

And I've said it before, but it bears repeating - Jane is infinitely smarter than Bean.

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LarvalBean
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quote:
Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
And I've said it before, but it bears repeating - Jane is infinitely smarter than Bean.

Jane is not _infinitely_ smarter than Bean. The difference might be very large, but it is finite and thus measurable.

In fact, the only reason she is smarter is because, unlike Bean, Jane has access to all data on all computers connected to every ansible in all human settled worlds. Without the computers, Jane would not be as smart as Bean is (though I expect that the two would be very close to each other).

Jane probably would have a superior attention span though, but only because of her bugger nature (she uses computer programs as her workers instead of actual buggers, though).

[ October 26, 2005, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: LarvalBean ]

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archon
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Who would win in a fight: giant blob Bean or crippled Miro???
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El JT de Spang
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You can pretty well assume that nearly anytime someone uses the adjective "infinitely" it's hyperbole. Not that if you tried to measure Jane's intelligence in the traditional fashion it wouldn't come up as "undefined", but I wasn't trying to imply that Jane has infinite intelligence. No being is infinitely more intelligent than any other intelligent being, and anyone with a dictionary and a calculator should know better than to assume that I was being literal.

But since we're nitpicking, you say
quote:
In fact, the only reason she is smarter is because, unlike Bean, Jane has access to all data on all computers connected to every ansible in all human settled worlds. Without the computers, Jane would not be as smart as Bean is
(Bolding mine)

This is not, of course, fact. It's opinion, and not well thought out opinion at that. Jane's access to data doesn't make her smarter than Bean, it makes her more knowledgeable than Bean. There's a difference.

Her access to all the processing power in the known universe is what makes her much, much, much, much, much smarter than Bean (though not infinitely so, as you pointed out). Memory and processing power are two different animals. I maintain that there's no way of knowing whether it's the computers that make her smarter, or her unique nature. But it's immaterial, because she's unquestionably smarter as they both are.

You claiming her intelligence is a function of the computers is the same as my claiming that Bean's intelligence is a function of genetic tampering. Both are permanent afflictions, so no use even spitballing who's smarter without augmentation. They're both augmented, and one is vastly more intelligent.

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LarvalBean
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quote:
Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
Jane's access to data doesn't make her smarter than Bean, it makes her more knowledgeable than Bean. There's a difference.

Her access to all the processing power in the known universe is what makes her much, much, much, much, much smarter than Bean (though not infinitely so, as you pointed out). Memory and processing power are two different animals. I maintain that there's no way of knowing whether it's the computers that make her smarter, or her unique nature. But it's immaterial, because she's unquestionably smarter as they both are.

You claiming her intelligence is a function of the computers is the same as my claiming that Bean's intelligence is a function of genetic tampering. Both are permanent afflictions, so no use even spitballing who's smarter without augmentation. They're both augmented, and one is vastly more intelligent.

Yeah, you're right - the extra processing power of the computers united by the ansible is the real factor in Jane's intelligence.

Also, I didn't mean to imply that all of Jane's intelligence came from the computers. While that was true at some point, Jane now has the network of the mothertrees and the Young Val body. I got the impression that the mothertrees were good for storing memories (and that they could store richer ones than a computer could) but I didn't feel that they actually had any intelligence or computing power.

As for augmentation, Jane _could_ be cut off from all the computers. This happened. While unlikely, it could happen again (in which case Jane would only be as smart as Young Val). To compare the unaugmented versions of Jane and Bean would be to compare a Jane who is cut off from the ansibles to Nikolai.

But I digress. My main point was this: Jane is smarter than Bean, but not greatly more so, and hypothetically Bean could catch up to Jane (thoough he would have probably end up as a giant weightless blob floating in space). Bean is like a kid in junior high and Jane is a college freshman.

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El JT de Spang
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See, I think the gulf between them is vast.

I think Jane's so much smarter than every living being that it's an insult to her to even compare her intelligence to theirs.

My basis for this is Jane's own description of how she functions. She has hundreds of thousands of levels of attention. Humans, even geniuses, have two, at most. She refers to her top ten thousand as having her full attention (which, as we discussed, is considerably more brainpower than our meager collection of water, blood, and brain tissue can bring to bear). So I guess I could keep your analogy but put it like this: Bean is a junior high kid, and Jane is 10,000 college freshmen.

Human beings are the most arrogant species currently in existence (and when that's not the case, we'll still get credit for inventing arrogance) but I just don't see any comparison between Bean and Jane.

But don't let that stop you.

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LarvalBean
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quote:
Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
I think Jane's so much smarter than every living being that it's an insult to her to even compare her intelligence to theirs.

My basis for this is Jane's own description of how she functions. She has hundreds of thousands of levels of attention. Humans, even geniuses, have two, at most. She refers to her top ten thousand as having her full attention (which, as we discussed, is considerably more brainpower than our meager collection of water, blood, and brain tissue can bring to bear). So I guess I could keep your analogy but put it like this: Bean is a junior high kid, and Jane is 10,000 college freshmen.

That is a good point. Even the smartest creature in the universe won't seem very clever unless it is able to pay attention every now and then. So it is possible that Jane's ability to have thousands of levels of focus could raise her level of intelligence way above any human.

However, in _Children of the Mind_ it is pointed out that the reason that Jane has this ability is because she is part bugger. Specifically, part Hive Queen. And the memories of the Hive Queen may indeed rival the memory of the ansible network (after all, Ender's Hive Queen was able to remember the ancient history of the Formics, back to the days before they were united; additionally she remembers all the technology that the Formics used to have and was able to recreate it).

In this sense, Jane (and indeed, any Hive Queen) is way smarter than Bean or any other human being. (In the Speaker series, the Hive Queen explains that once she understodo Ender, he was not as terribly brilliant as the Formics though he was. Also, she says that the reason she couldn't tame Ender as a worker was because he was too stupid - he couldn't pay attention long enough.) On the other hand, the Battle school kids beat the crud out of the Formic fleets, and Ender completely annhilated them (except for the one pregnant female) in that last battle where he was outnumbered a thousand to one.

I still postulate that for any purely intellectual problem (where having the ability to focus on thousands of things at once is not a major advantage), Bean can hold his own against her. I also strongly doubt that Jane has any deeper philosophical insights than Bean. The fact that Jane can solve many problems at once doesn't necessarily make her smarter, especially since humans are more efficent at problem solving. (This is pointed out in _Speaker for the Dead_ when Jane attempts to figure out why Pipo died after she breaks into Novina's files. Jane runs many many simulations and finds the answer by trial and error, while a human expert would have used insight to get the answer in the same amount of time.) Even Young Val's human brain won't help here, since that can only focus on one problem at once, and it is probably not as good at problem solving as Bean's brain is.

Sidenote: In the case of Bean specifically, it is possible that he may at some point gain a limited form of this Hive Queen ability, to focus on multiple problems at once, simply because he'll have so much brain matter. It's not a certainty but it can't be ruled out either, as no one knows enough about how the brain works yet. Not relevant to the discussion because it seems that Bean won't live that long.

quote:
Human beings are the most arrogant species currently in existence (and when that's not the case, we'll still get credit for inventing arrogance) but I just don't see any comparison between Bean and Jane.

But don't let that stop you.

Jane is part human, and for humans, she can be quite arrogant IMHO. In her case though, she's probably earned the right.
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Survivor
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Okay, the whole conversation seems to have gotten far too geeky for me.
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