posted
I have been a long time fan of OSC, and have bought and read almost every one of his books. Ender's game, Ender's Shadow, and 7th Son are among my all time favorites. But after Shadow of the Hegemon, I had a hard time continuing that series. I was so intensely disappointed in that book that I stopped reading OSC for several years.
My main difficulty was with the character Achilles. He was presented as Peter's nemesis, and he just seemed to me to be eminently unworthy of the job. My impression of that universe was that Ender was the pinnacle of genius and that Peter was his equal except without scruples. This was relayed to me through Ender and Peter's actions rather than exposition. Peter and Valentine were able to manipulate the entire world through false identities. And the implication was that they were the result of some organized program of eugenics.
Now, Achilles shows up out of nowhere and gets into battle school, which is fine. But that this nobody who isn't even able reach Ender's notice is subsequently able to challenge Peter just strains my credulity past the breaking point. Nothing he does prior to Hegemon indicates this ability. This is Peter we are talking about! This is the person who unites all of humanity, the sociopathic boy who was as Ender's nemesis in Ender's Game who became the Hegemon, humanity's first leader. I was hoping to get a story about this transformation. About how a power hungry boy transforms into the benign world ruler who is eulogized by the Speaker.
It just seemed to me that the Achilles of Ender's Shadow showed no signs of being close to Petra's league, let alone Ender's or Bean's. How could he be Peter's match?
Perhaps some fans of Hegemon could help me understand.
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posted
Shadow Puppets is pretty much the novel that explains this, or rather mentions there is no significant ability on Achilles part that would make him able to stand up to Peter. Read Shadow Puppets, I personally had trouble with shadow of the hedgemon for a different reason but I love the shadow series now.
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I thought Ender was already enroute to Eros by the time Achilles showed up (I don't have a book here to check it, though). If thats the case, how he avoided Ender's notice is pretty simple.
Also, how are you defining genius? What do you think they were looking for when they admitted people into battle school? I would argue that everything Achilles does prior to Hegemon puts him in the position he was in for Hegemon and Shadow Puppets.
If you keep reading, especially in Shadow of the Giant, you get the story you want.
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First, the intelligence difference between the kids here is minute. Only Ender and Bean are in a league of their own and among these two only Bean is truly above everyone else. Ender's main advantage is his character that allows his intelligence to be used much more effectively than any other battle schooler's.
Second, the earthside war that results after the formic war isn't about intelligence; it's about mainly what you're given. Was Virlomi at the same level as Alai or Hot Soup? And yet she was able to "compete" with both of them even though she was given nothing but her reputation as a battle schooler, which the other two also had. Anyway, Achilles had the battleschool tag on him, which Peter did not and he used this to get direct control of various countries. Peter could only play net games because he had nothing.
About Peter, though, he's a hard guy to understand. In Ender's Game, he seemed to be tricking everybody. But that's because the people he was around were so easily tricked. His teachers? His classmates? Of course he can trick them, but when put against his parents or Valentine, or Ender he couldn't do anything. He couldn't be loved, so nobody wants to follow him. (That's why he never got into BattleSchool, not because he was too mean).
Then you have Achilles, who is indeed able to trick not only his classmates and peers, but the battleschool grads themselves. He tricked Graff, Vlad, Carlotta--all people who probably wouldn't have been fooled by Peter. You're also forgetting that Peter changed after Ender got taken. It was at an subconscious level, but he always felt that there were people who would always be the battleschoolers who were better than him, even the worst of them since they got in and he didn't. (Ironically Ender thought there would always be Peter who was always better than him.)
Besides, just imagine if Achilles were Ender's brother. Then Ender would be dead.
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Yes, I'd say that the only thing Achilles had over Peter was he was better better at tricking people. He tricked the different Governments that he was one of the best battle schoolers when in fact he would've been one of the worst.
His gift was he could fool people just only long enough to plot to betray them and convince his next victim to take him in. If he had been truly smart he would have considered that there was only a limited amount of countries and eventully he would run out of places to trick his way into and betray.
If Achilles had succeeded in getting control of the Earth it would've have been through sheer trickery and then the Earth would have decended into chaos since government can't live on trickery alone and then the people would've realized he was a fake, however late it would've been.
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Its not even a matter of tricking governments into thinking he was the best- he was a battleschooler, and the fact he had insane ambitions was a plus for governments. What more were they looking for?
"Hi, I went to battleschool" "Right this way, Sir." "Oh, and I plan on ruling the world." "Very good, Sir."
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The only thing that stretched my credulity (I'm not even sure what that word means, but if I read it correctly in context from the first post it's the word I'm looking for) was how 2 of the smartest people in the world, Bean and Achilles, grew up in the same neighborhood. And then the first person picked by Poke when she was picking the bullies happened to be one of the smartest kids in the world. It was a really big coincidence.
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See, thats what I was asking in my original post. I would not say they are the smartest kids in the world in every subject, but smartest in tactics, leadership, and in Achilles case, manipulation- which is what Battle School was looking for. Which is what other governments are for.
Is it a bit of coincidence that the two grew up together in the same town? Yes. But that the same time, wouldn't you say that the both of them would rub off on each other tactics wise while they were together? The two of them have the advantage that in order for them to survive, they had to be smart. To be honest, I wouldn't classify Achilles as one of the smartest intellectually. But he was brilliant at manipulation and had dangerously high ambition.
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"But that the same time, wouldn't you say that the both of them would rub off on each other tactics wise while they were together?"
I'm not sure about that. I mean, Achilles was probably already a prodigy (I'm refraining from saying genius) at manipulation and other things, and when Achilles was formulating the plans with Poke's crew on how to steal them and the whole plan on how to get into the soup kitchen, Bean wasn't really challenging him or making him any smarter.
"The two of them have the advantage that in order for them to survive, they had to be smart."
I don't really agree here either. Strength and size may have been more valuable than intelligence, I think. And alot of kids who survived weren't really smart or strong. I think to survive on those streets you had to be lucky, with strength/size and street-smart as contributing factors.
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posted
I don't see how Achilles was better at trickery. Peter convinced the entire world of as Demosthenes. Achilles should not even be in his class. This is Peter, who has plots within plots, who is Ender's intellectual equal, who has been plotting world domination since the age of 8, when Achilles was rooting in garbage cans.
And Peter was part of an eugenics project to create Ender. And Achilles just shows up and matches him? I think Achilles was a good nemesis for a juvenile Bean, but he just loses all credibility in the major leagues.
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Achilles was a serial killer who managed to meet the standards of the Battle School psych profile tests.
He seems an excellent villian. For what it's worth, he scared the living daylights out of me. I read through the Shadow series on the edge of my chair because I was so terrified of what he was capable of doing. Only Margaret Atwood's Oryx and Crake has made me equally afraid of what is possible, and she's all over the dystopia. OSC occasionally has happy (or at least uplifting) endings and Achilles just made me whimper.
I think I'm going to go read SotH again now.
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quote:I don't see how Achilles was better at trickery. Peter convinced the entire world of as Demosthenes. Achilles should not even be in his class. This is Peter, who has plots within plots, who is Ender's intellectual equal, who has been plotting world domination since the age of 8, when Achilles was rooting in garbage cans.
Peter didn't do that alone. He and Valentine both did it, and she was probably more responsible than him considering her superior linguistic skills shown in the Speaker Trilogy. He didn't trick the whole world into his becoming Hegemon, he just tricked Valentine into it, which we all know he's good at.
Achilles, on the other hand, killed anyone who even appeared to have helped him, or at least tried to.
Yes, it is rather interesting how possibly the most destitute place in the world bred two of the most influential, intelligent people in the Enderverse of Enders Game/Enders Shadow. Great point GaalDornick.
Also, after reading Enders Shadow (at least a year ago) I picked up the one in the series I had just assumed was the sequel because it was the only one in the library at the time. It was, trying to avoid spoiling, the one where that girl did her thing in India. its my favourite story ever, though I don't remember it nearly well enough. I need to know which one this was so I can read it again, and read the rest of them without confusion. Anyone who can help me with that, I'd be very grateful.
[ December 01, 2005, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: cheiros do ender ]
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posted
He might possibly mean Sister Carlotta as the third one, but she wasn't from Rotterdam. IIRC, she was originally from the Catalan region of Spain.
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quote:The stones thing (Shadow Puppets) or the elevated way above stones thing (Shadow of the Giant)?
I have no idea what the second one is. I guess I'll also say that the confrontation ends in Brazil. Hope that helps. Regarding the stones, I'll just come out and say it: She hets the locals to block off the roads with stone piles, or something like that.
I didn't mean to say three. I thought about the fact that Petra doesn't really count, but must have forgotten to change it to two. I'll change it now. Thanks for pointing that out.
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quote:Originally posted by cheiros do ender: Peter didn't do that alone. He and Valentine both did it, and she was probably more responsible than him considering her superior linguistic skills shown in the Speaker Trilogy. He didn't trick the whole world into his becoming Hegemon, he just tricked Valentine into it, which we all know he's good at.
Achilles, on the other hand, killed anyone who even appeared to have helped him, or at least tried to.
Yes, it is rather interesting how possibly the most destitute place in the world bred two of the most influential, intelligent people in the Enderverse of Enders Game/Enders Shadow. Great point GaalDornick.
That's one of the problems. Power is about building relationships, something Peter was a master of. Achilles, on the other hand, was completely incapable of this. Nothing in any of the books ever showed him capable of leadership of any kind. He never exhibited any sense of brilliance, but he did have a pathological need to kill. Peter should have been able to deal with him in his sleep. I did not find Achilles creepy in the least, just a sad jerk with "leet ninja skillz".
Peter, on the other hand was truly scary. One of the reasons I was so eagerly waiting for SotH was to hear his story at last. This is someone who can torture you but still make you love him. It is the doubt that makes you fear him. Was he really just a misunderstood kid who wanted love? Or was all that just an act to get what he wanted? And what did he want in the first place? Sure Achilles would kill you, but Peter could make you do what he wanted. Peter could make you kill yourself.
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I seriously doubt Peter could actually make any sane person kill themself. My argument was not that Peter was good at making people love him, which Achilles could also do. The difference between the two was by the time people Peter had tricked realised he'd done it he was in a position where they needed him to keep control and so chose to help him. Achilles was far more ruthless in the sense that he never aimed to actually put himself into a position to help people like that.
Achilles, on one hand though, did all this by himself. Peter always looked to other people for help (eg His parents, Valentine, Bean...) and put them in a position where it was benefitial for the rest of the world, their own nations, or whatever, to continue siding with him. I never set out to argue that Achilles is better than Peter, though he may very well be, just his equal.
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quote: Is it a bit of coincidence that the two grew up together in the same town?
I don't think so.
Opportunity, opportunity, opportunity: There could have been others like Bean (..sorta..) and Achilles in other cities, but because they weren't together, their actions never got noticed, at least not in the way that Bean and Achilles' did.
Or, think of it this way: If it hadn't happened, would any one have written a story about it?
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quote:Originally posted by cheiros do ender: I seriously doubt Peter could actually make any sane person kill themself. My argument was not that Peter was good at making people love him, which Achilles could also do. The difference between the two was by the time people Peter had tricked realised he'd done it he was in a position where they needed him to keep control and so chose to help him. Achilles was far more ruthless in the sense that he never aimed to actually put himself into a position to help people like that.
Achilles, on one hand though, did all this by himself. Peter always looked to other people for help (eg His parents, Valentine, Bean...) and put them in a position where it was benefitial for the rest of the world, their own nations, or whatever, to continue siding with him. I never set out to argue that Achilles is better than Peter, though he may very well be, just his equal.
What you describe Peter doing is manipulation, something Achilles is completely incapable of. What did Achilles ever accomplish "on screen" that ever comes close to what Peter accomplished? He did "all this" by himself? What did he do, other than pull a Ted Bundy that we actually see? Ruthlessness is not intelligence.
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My argument was not that Peter was good at making people love him, which Achilles could also do. The difference between the two was by the time people Peter had tricked realised he'd done it he was in a position where they needed him to keep control and so chose to help him. Achilles was far more ruthless in the sense that he never aimed to actually put himself into a position to help people like that.
