posted
Warning: This post and other posts in this thread will contain SPOILERS. If you haven't read "The Gate Thief" go read it right now, then come back here and talk about it.
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The most interesting unanswered questions, to me, are what exactly happened to Loki back when he closed the gates hundreds of years ago, why he wound up stuck in a tree and acting as a "gate thief" for a millennium and a half.
It seems most likely to me that Loki's actions were not his own: he was operating under the directives of a powerful manmage (my guess would be the Odin of his time) which would explain the lost memory and the bizarre compulsion to "eat" other gatemages if they tried to bridge the two worlds. It seems probable to me that, like a powerful Tidefather or Gatefather can invest enough of his outself into a current or gate and sustain it long after his death, so too can a Thoughtfather create a compulsion in a person that persists.
The bigger question, in my mind, is what exactly was the nature of his imprisonment inside the tree? I don't see why a powerful treemage couldn't cause a tree to grow around somebody to make a prison, but it doesn't explain Loki's longevity. Perhaps the actions of a healer who's been supercharged by a Great Gate into granting long-term nigh-immortality?
It certainly wouldn't be outside the power of a powerful manmage to enlist the aid of a treemage and a lifemage (or whatever they call healers) into creating this prison.
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Secondly, the exact potential of gatemages is interesting to me; Loki's most famous ability was as a shapeshifter. Now, alot of this could be simple teleportation tricks: gate yourself away from a location at the exact same time that you gate a horse in, and it appears you have turned into a horse. What if there's more to it than that, though?
Example: what if a gatemage can create a gate that allows light to pass through it, but only certain wavelengths? A gatemage could alter colors in this way, making his skin appear darker, or change the color of his hair. A more advanced approach might be to create a one-way lightgate beginning around the face of the person you intend to imitate and ending around your own face. The effect of this would be to create a very convincing illusion that you are the person in question. You could also use the tactics to disguise others as well, while a similar technique could allow you to become invisible.
The offensive potential of gates has already been discussed in the novel: gate someone's heart out of their body or gate your hand into their chest and squeeze.
Even better than that, one could simply use gates to make the blood inside their body skip past certain body parts. If you can stop the flow to someone's brain for just a few seconds, you can knock them out without really hurting them much. (Or kill them, by witholding the blood for just a bit longer.)
Defensively, gatemages are vulnerable only to attacks they don't see coming, but why couldn't a gatemage (at least a gatemage with Danny's absurd potential for gates) set up "shield gates" around himself, so that if a lightning bolt, arrow, or sniper's bullet hit the gate it would go someplace else entirely, or even better, be reflected back at the person pulling the trigger.
Can a portal actually "break" a solid object? Could a gatemage put a portal over a steel rod, close the portal, and leave half the rod in one place and half in the other? C
ould a gatemage use gates to, for example, gate away a 5000 cubic ft cavern in the center of the moon, create permanent "ventilation gates" to recycle air from earth, and gate a palace to his secret "moon base" where he's safe from all attackers? He could even make a gate up at the top to let in sunlight.
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Anyway, that's the end of my hypotheticals. I really love this book: it's like if someone was like "Dude, you can get any author you want to right you a book, and it can be about whatever you want." I love mythology, especially Norse, OSC is probably my #1 author, the Proto-Indo-European culture is beyond fascinating to me, and I'm a sucker superpowers.
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posted
Having just finished the audio book this morning, I wanted to comment on a few things...
Shortly after Loki separated from the tree, the book spoke ti his motivations being to escape the arguing. I don't know if this was the arguing of the mages, or the voices from the outselves he had consumed prior to being in the tree, but I took his time in the tree as being voluntary. That was reinforced when he went back and hugged the tree, asking it to take him back.
Also, I seem to remember Loki making a comment about the tree itself sustaining him, which would preclude the presence of a treemage or a healer.
I am definitely curious about why Sed decided to stay, rather than come back through the gate. Somehow, this does not bode well.
I am also not convinced that Lana is completely out of the picture, but time will tell.
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posted
If a manmage is involved (and we will certainly see a manmage in the series: OSC is too seasoned an author to include a checkov's gun that doesn't get fired) "voluntary" may not enter into it: whatever magic, in theory, compels him to become the gate thief (something that does indeed seem to be written as a compulsion, not a conscious choice) would also compel him to love his prison, since no prison could hold a gatemage unless he wanted it to: the tree, I theorize, was not his prison, but his protective shell. Even without such a directive from the manmage, prisoners learn to love their prisons and captors all the time: see institutionalization and Stockholm syndrome.
Yes, it is noted that tree itself was sustaining him, but since seems like treemagery at the very least: I don't think just gating oneself inside a tree is enough to actually integrate the tree's biology into your own. A gate-empowered healer isn't necessary, but I think a treemage is.
Sed staying in Westil is an odd choice for the character, but an obvious one for the author. Mittlegard has had its status quo shaken up well enough by Danny, and the Silvermans getting their gate-boost, so having the sudden appearance of a god-powered windmage in Westil serves to shake up that setting without introducing free travel back and forth so early in the story.
I imagine Lana will be back as well, but I don't think she'll amount to much, except in how she relates to the men of the story, just knowing how hard it is for OSC to write women as primary characters. She'll likely stay as one of Card's three basic female archetypes, even if she evolves from "broken headcase" into "wife/mother figure" or "evil manipulator"
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Iceway has been focused on sea-magery for years, as it led to their success. I am wondering if the introduction of a powerful windmage is going to have an impact on Iceway, given that wind is just as crucial to a seafaring nation.
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posted
Hmm...well, Ced's appearance in Westil could shake things up a lot for the Grays, but not so much for Iceway. The book early on mentioned that Iceway long abandoned making sails for its ships; I can't remember if it said that other countries had too, but if Ced gated someplace besides Iceway, he could easily rule Westil if he's been granted god-like powers.
As for Loki not acting under his own directives, but under those of a manmage...I don't know about that. Perhaps he saw the danger when he fought against Bel. Perhaps that nearly snapped his mind and made him realize how dangerous the other gods were, and how weak they'd be without the gates; with that conclusion, he would decide that the best thing to do would be to close the gates. I'm not saying you're wrong though. I like the idea, but since we haven't run into a manmage yet, it's hard to talk about them.
For the potential of gates...I never thought really about defensive measures. For Danny, since the only people who can lock or open his gates are his friends, it would make sense to have those gate shields around him to protect him from other dangers. But as soon as he faces Wad...that's a whole different story. Or if there's a few gatemages hunting you? Two reach into gates, trying to get right next to you, into your shields, another couple shut gates, anything to throw you off balance. Shields are a fantastic idea, but my problem with those is he would have to be concentrating on moving those along with him all the time. What if...what if he embedded the gates in his clothing, skin, etc? That way he would appear normal, but since they're with him, they would protect him from those same things? Offensive capabilities: I never really thought about the whole gating to the heart thing until it was mentioned. I always just thought of it in hand-to-hand situations, where you could gate repeatedly and strike them from many different spaces in seconds, using your momentum from the gate to hit them harder and faster. But it would be useful to, say, gate the dirt below them away, leaving a small pit, and then locking them into place by gating some of it back. Keeps them from moving (unless they're an Earthmage), but doesn't kill them. I think that's what Danny will be looking at more instead of crushing their heart or...ew...gating out pieces of a bone at a time, fracturing sections away. That's just sick. Why did I think of that?
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Also, just because I didn't want to open a new thread, I felt like this was all so...obvious. Like almost nowhere in the book did I go, "Oh wait, whaaa-?". Obviously Danny is going to be a Gatefather, a bridge between Westil and Earth (because I can't remember the book's name for it), which wasn't surprising because he's the main character. The things that were just kind of like, "Well, yeah, duh" were things like the revelation that Danny had so many gates in him. As soon as you found out that a Pathbrother or Gatefather left little bits of heartbound lying around, it became obvious. As for Wad, as soon as it mentioned him in the garden by the castle, I knew he was Loki, and as soon as it mentioned the voices, I knew he had to be the Gate Thief to have all those heartbounds fighting against him.
All that being said...I actually liked it that way. No deus ex machina here, just logical thoughts. This leads to that, which leads to this. The magic system is simple, easy to follow, and lets you find these conclusions by yourself instead of just popping them in front of you and saying, "Here, enjoy."
I didn't know this was supposed to be a series, and I was reading it in iBook format with the page indicator turned off, so when I reached the Acknowledgements, I was surprised and frustrated. Totally my fault on that one though; I only knew it was a Card book, so I had to read it.
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quote:Originally posted by AlphaEnder: [QB] Hmm...well, Ced's appearance in Westil could shake things up a lot for the Grays, but not so much for Iceway. The book early on mentioned that Iceway long abandoned making sails for its ships; I can't remember if it said that other countries had too, but if Ced gated someplace besides Iceway, he could easily rule Westil if he's been granted god-like powers.
True: I didn't think about that, but the reference to Iceway's sail-less fleets was probably written precicely to foreshadow Ced's shaking up of the status-quo.
quote:As for Loki not acting under his own directives, but under those of a manmage...I don't know about that. Perhaps he saw the danger when he fought against Bel. Perhaps that nearly snapped his mind and made him realize how dangerous the other gods were, and how weak they'd be without the gates; with that conclusion, he would decide that the best thing to do would be to close the gates.
People going mad isn't as interesting as people under mind control, and my point about Checkov's gun still stands. Further, the idea that Loki would voluntarily imprison himself for the good of the world seems a little overly selfless to realy be believable, especially when paired with the madness and memory loss of the state he emerged in (and it also doesn't explain the tree or the youth)
quote:For the potential of gates...I never thought really about defensive measures. For Danny, since the only people who can lock or open his gates are his friends, it would make sense to have those gate shields around him to protect him from other dangers. But as soon as he faces Wad...that's a whole different story. Or if there's a few gatemages hunting you? Two reach into gates, trying to get right next to you, into your shields, another couple shut gates, anything to throw you off balance.
Well gatemage vs gatemage is another matter entirely. Even the gate-based deceptions I discussed would fail against other gatemages because they can generally sense what the gate is doing, and can definitely sense that it's there.
IMO, the best weapon against a gatemage (apart from a manmage, of course) is an illusionist like Beoxi. She could always be two feet away from where she really is, can get close enough to a gatemage to pull a gun on him and shoot him through the skull before he knows anything is going on. The fact that light-magic seems to be paired with fire-magic makes this even more lethal. Could a great-gated fire/light mage just make somebody spontaneously combust?
Hrm...
quote:Shields are a fantastic idea, but my problem with those is he would have to be concentrating on moving those along with him all the time.
I'm not sure that's true, not with enough experience, once a gatemage understands his limitations... or lack thereof.
Consider: a gatemage's gate are always moving. A gate he places at any given location will follow along effortlessly with the rotation of the planet. Why does it do this? Gates don't appear to be effected by gravity, and certainly isn't pushed around by ordinary matter in any way, so it seems the gates obey the planet's rotation because the gatemage expects them to do so. He doesn't have to constantly guide the gate along with the Earth because that's just the default.
Now, a gatemage that realizes that his gates are all moving without his continued guidance may be able to change how they move. The shields, for example, would remain in place on and around his body, or to orbit his body rapidly, and it's possible he can set this behavior at the time he creates them. We've probably already seen this happen to some degree: both Danny and Wad noted they could spy with a pinhole-sized gate inside their own eye, but unless they hold very very still, they'd have to expend a great deal of concentration to keep that pinprick where he can see it. It's more likely, I think, that once they see it "in their eye" it would stay there.
Another defensive concept, assuming movement of the gates can be made automatic as theorized above: a gate that's constantly passing itself over the gatemage and depositing him in the same place over and over and over again, 10 times per second. This way, even a bullet through the head would be unlikely to kill the mage, since the damage would be repaired before it actually killed him. This would also eliminate any drugs or diseases in his system, even if he's not aware of them.
But really, what's missing from gatemagic as written is Loki's shapeshifting. It's his signature ability, so one has to wonder what aspect of Gatemagic allows for it.
Also, I kind of wonder why Eris hasn't been discussed at all. She seems like a clear gatemage, and far more Loki-like than Hermies or Mercury. Interestingly, Romans familiar with the Nordic pantheon equated Mercury with Odin. One has to wonder how often Lokis became Odins in the North clan back in the day.
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posted
I think all of the full gods of the greek pantheon where shape shifters. I know zeus and hera turned into things to get some. So why don't more of the Westilians have that power.
OSC talks about light mages who can change their shape and color and visability. I think danny's mother is that powerful a light mage?
I agree that we will likely see a manmage in the next book. I cannot wait
As for why he was in the tree and what kept Loki young. Trees grow slowly over thousands of years and rejuvinate broken limbs and stuff. So it seems that Loki was made part of the tree and then later seperated from it. while he was part tree he aged as a tree ages... Like in Kevin J Anderson's Seven Suns series when the brother is recreated from the body of a tree.
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posted
I'm interested on how the manmage is going to come up. I mean...there's a strong possibility one will be introduced, but there's really no predecessor to it. It was mentioned, what, twice? It was mentioned when Loki fell out of the tree (in reference to treemagery to manmagery), but I can't remember anywhere else. I doubt we'll start with a manmage. Maybe halfway through the book so we can get some ground underneath him.
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posted
Odin and Loki are frequently conflated, interchanged, or swapped about in the Eddas, as well. And both Mercury and Odin were gods of travelers.
What I want to know about is Bel's world: it seems reasonable that it would be as far ahead of Mittelgard/Earth as Earth is of Westil, maybe along the lines of Piers Anthony's Phase/Proton duality with Westil, with Earth in the middle. Or (maybe And) it is a Jotunheim of sorts, where the Titans and Frost-Giants and Anakim live (remember the reference to Goliath of Gath and the Baal/Bel cult?)
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quote:Originally posted by scher: I think all of the full gods of the greek pantheon where shape shifters. I know zeus and hera turned into things to get some. So why don't more of the Westilians have that power.
Keep in mind the myths are inaccurate: a shapeshifting deity in a myth is more likely some other power being mistaken for shapeshifting. A god that takes on the shape of an animal to mate with a mortal may simply be a Beastmage using his clant (though how such unions result in offspring is something of a mystery)
And yes, Greek Myths seem to portray the Gods as all being able to shapeshift into whatever forms they desire, but it's far less common in norse myths: the Aesir could disguise themselves as mortals, but being able to take on animal shapes is a trait common to Jotuns, not Aesir.
quote:Originally posted by scher: OSC talks about light mages who can change their shape and color and visability. I think danny's mother is that powerful a light mage?
Yes, but that's not actual shapeshifting, those are illusions created by altering the properties of light. It doesn't explain why Loki is such a prolific shapeshifter in the myths.
quote:Originally posted by scher: As for why he was in the tree and what kept Loki young. Trees grow slowly over thousands of years and rejuvinate broken limbs and stuff. So it seems that Loki was made part of the tree and then later seperated from it. while he was part tree he aged as a tree ages.
That makes sense for something a powerful treemage might be able to do, but being able to integrate one's biology into a tree would seem to be outside the scope of a Gatemage's powers.
quote:Originally posted by Pfiffltrigg: Odin and Loki are frequently conflated, interchanged, or swapped about in the Eddas, as well.
Good point. It does seem likely that the North's Gatemages (ie, "Lokis") were often made their leaders (ie, "Odins")
quote:Originally posted by Pfiffltrigg: What I want to know about is Bel's world: it seems reasonable that it would be as far ahead of Mittelgard/Earth as Earth is of Westil, maybe along the lines of Piers Anthony's Phase/Proton duality with Westil, with Earth in the middle. Or (maybe And) it is a Jotunheim of sorts, where the Titans and Frost-Giants and Anakim live (remember the reference to Goliath of Gath and the Baal/Bel cult?)
Are we led to believe that Bel wasn't from Westil? I didn't get that at all: he was a powerful Westilian gatemage, by my reading, but I could easily have missed something.
"Giants" and other "super-humans" are insinuated to be mortals who have passed through a great gate, if I recall. Westilians' magical powers grow in the passing, while mortals' mundane powers (strength/size, agility/fighting ability, intellect/charisma, depending on the person) are improved. It's not discussed at length, but it appears to be covered.
I think the only place where a third world is mentioned is in regards to non Indo-European belief systems: there's an idea that they originate from other worlds, just as the Indo-European myths come from Westil.
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posted
I think everyone here has been focusing too much on Loki and neglected Bel, the potential main villain of the story. Of course, there's not much people here, but I digress. I have just finished another reread of "The Lost Gate" and I came up with a little theory.
This is a theory. My whole basis of it came when I read the scene where Jose wavered in his decision to kill Rico, and all of a sudden, "someone has his hands". After I finished the book, I thought... What if that was Bel?
Anyways... Here is my theory.
Thirteen hundred years ago, Loki discovered Bel's existance and realized the dangers he represent to Westil, the homeworld of all mages. However, for some reason, he did not inform his Family or try to form an alliance between all Families to stop him, but rather just take it upon himself to do it all on his own.
This could mean that Loki thought Bel was too powerful for them to handle, so a war would be a lost cause. Or... It could mean that Bel was a manmage and already had some sort of influence over them, one that they may not even be aware of. So, Loki may have been forced to act alone.
Based on what Loki's voice told Danny at the end of the book, we can all assume that Bel's plan was to launch an invasion of Westil (the homeworld of all mages) with the use of a drowthers (normal human) army, but Loki managed to beat him to the punch and stopped him before this invasion could happen. If Bel is still alive after thirteen hundred years, then he is still trapped on Earth thanks to Loki.
So for over a thousand years, Loki played the role of the "Gate Thief", the one who stops any attempt to create a Great Gate that could connect Westil to Earth, which would allow Bel to follow through with his plans. So, unless Bel gets rid of Loki, there was no way in heck he could ever invade a place he could not even get to. Which is the reason why Loki is in Westil, not Earth. It is for his own safety.
So, how do you get rid of one of the most powerful Gatefather in history? With an even stronger one, of course!
Enter Danny North.
I think Danny is Bel's pawn.
I am not exactly sure when, but I think Bel may have taken notice of Danny when he realized he had the potential to take down Loki. Perhaps when the Greeks found out about his existence, or maybe even when he created his first gate. If it were not such a stretch, I would say that Bel may have influenced his parents and his birth.
Okay, so after Danny escaped his family, it seems the universe had practically handed him exactly what he required to survive. And later, exactly what he needed to master his powers.
Eric was necessary to take him to Stone, who would later hand him over to the Silvermans. And Veevee, who just so happens to notice one of his gates while she was in a taxi. Finally, when Danny had "strayed" from his path and started to enjoy his life as a teenager, here comes Hermia, who decided to betray and reveal her secret to her Family... for the slim chance of salvation that Danny represents, a boy whom she met only once and may never even see again. It was only luck that she managed to find a series of gates that led her right to him. Immediately after that, they decided to make the Great Gate.
In fact, I would also like to point out that I find it more than a bit fishy that a librarian would just show a priceless book to a child, who, for all she know, probably just wanted a little information for his school project... This is the very same book that just so happens to contain the passage that helped Danny defeat Loki in the end.
All these coincidence would make more sense if all these events were carefully influenced by Bel to stage a showdown between Danny and Loki.
That's all I have for now. As for who Bel is... Heck, who knows.
Maybe Bel is Eric or Lana. They are the only two notable characters that has yet to show any ability. If Bel is Lana... It would be a shocker, but then Ced running off doesn't seem so strange now.
I really enjoyed The Lost Gate and really want to read the next one. I hope after the next Ender book is written and Ruin (The second Pathfinder book) is released early next year that this will be the next book released.
I listened to Stonefather as well, if you haven't checked it out I suggest you do. It takes place in Westil and is very enjoyable.
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posted
I'm not convinced about BEL, it has been 1400 years, I doubt the original Bel is still alive.
If Bel was this all powerful being trapped on earth, and he couldn't invade Westil, then I'm sure he would want to rule the planet he was on, which for the moment we assume is earth. Though as someone pointed out, their could be a third planet.
And if Bel is on earth, he might not necessarily seek political power, however, it seems very very unlikely that a powerful being like that would not at least seek economic power, or if not power, then at least wealth.
Then there is the matter of living 1400 years, and doing essentially nothing. He certainly couldn't stay in one place very long. Once all the people around you start to age noticeably, and you are still relatively young, it starts to get noticed.
I think there are just too many complications to the idea that the original Bel is still alive. If he is, someone will have to explain to me how that is possible.
I think it far more likely, Loki is still fighting a war that ended centuries ago, but being on another world, and being trapped in a tree, he is not aware that the original threat no longer exists. But, just because that original threat no longer exist, doesn't mean some similar threat does not exist.
For there to be a story, there has to be some kind of conflict to resolve, so I don't think we get off so easy as Bel being long dead. That's far too simple.
I'm really eager to read the next chapter in this story (meaning the next book). There are a lot of floating mysteries that still need to be answered.
As to the book, I found it very captivating. I read it in a couple of days, I simply couldn't put it down. And it kept me guessing pretty much right up to the end. I would be reading along and see the remaining pages shrinking and shrinking, yet there we not yet to where the plot was obviously going. I kept wondering how they were going to resolve the story with so little book left. But resolve it they did, to the extent that this particular book needed to be resolved at least. But, as mentioned, there are a lot of larger unanswered questions.
How are the families going to feel about this? Does this mean all out war against the Orphans?
The whole Loki/Bel mystery from 1400 years ago?
Loki has had 1400 years of semi-consciousness in which to forget the details of what happened. Who and how will these memories be drawn out?
The Loki (presumably) mystery as it stands now?
Several subplots on Westil were set up, yet not fully resolved. They don't exist for nothing. What about Ced? What about the girl EKO who first greeted the 'tree boy'? The Mistress and her two sons? And many many more.
There is still a lot of story that needs to be told. And I'm looking forward to reading them.
posted
1) If (and I stress if), Bel had somehow managed to survive the 1400 yr (where did we get that number?) interim, most of it would have had to be in stasis like Loki. Thus, no taking over the world even if he hadn't lost his gates to Loki.
B) Assuming Bel is alive and we've met the character, I'd pick Stone as the semi-obvious choice. He was the lynch pin for most of Danny's success in the book, and always acted as if he knew more than he could/should have (aka a former gatemage without gates).
III) If this is supposed to back up "Indoeuropean" polytheistic religions, then there will certainly be more worlds because there is almost always at least 3 or the equivilants: Home-of-the-god(s), Earth, and the Underworld (or Olympus, Terra, Hades) (or the Norse: Asgard, Midgard, and Hel) etc. Whether more worlds will be needed for the story, who knows? I don't think OSC will have to worry about that until at least book 3 (assuming there is a book 3).
Its been a few months since I read the book, so please correct me if I got any details wrong.
posted
That brings up another aspect of Bel. Exactly what was his problem? Was he trying to attack one of the planets, and Loki had to shut down all gates to stop him?
Yet, how would Loki discover this? Did Bel actually launch an attack? If so, and Bel's armies were defeated, did Bel remained on his home planet, where ever that might be. If so, the closing the gates might make sense.
But, it makes sense to close new gates, or gates specifically to Bel's home planet, but why close all gates? I guess if there are only two planets, then Bel would have to be on one or the other. And he if he is on Loki's planet, then he doesn't need gates. So, he must be on earth, but what has he been doing on earth for 1400 years?
Unless he was also in some kind of stasis. Perhaps a third party threw Loki into the tree, and at the same time did the equivalent to Bel? But then, who is the third party who was powerful enough to do this?
There are certainly a lot of mysteries remaining in the story.
posted
Hello All, I actually just joined the forum for the sole purpose of posting this message.
I apologize in advance I do not have direct quotes at the moment, I will try to collect them later. However, I most certainly understood Bel to be : A) A Gatefather of at least comprable ability to Loki. B) Trapped on a third (neither Westil nor Mittlgrad) planet. C) Very much still a threat to BOTH Westil and Mittlegrad. If I am remembering correctly, in the tale that teaches Danny about eating gates, Bel attempts to eat Loki's gates yet Loki is able to escape in much the same way that Danny was, by eating Bel's heart horde from the inside.
Now if we assume that Loki and Bel were the two most powerful gate mages of thier age (perhaps even until Danny's birth) then it would make perfect sense that Bel would attack Loki first or very nearly first to get him out of the way. Keep in mind that removing a Gatefather not only removes ONE powerful mage it then negatively affects ALL mages around him. With their inability to cross a Great Gate weakening them over time. This weakening would have allowed Bel to first eliminate Loki and the lesser Gate mages, then replace the Mittlegrad gods in the eyes of the drowers, once he became the sole drower god (a parallel to monotheism replacing polytheism in the real world?) Then he could have forged a Great Gate and ordered them through it en masse to take over a severly weakened Westil.
As far as the third planet, doesn't Mittlegrad itself mean "middle earth/planet". Isn't Earth a mid way point between two magical planets where traveling from either onto earth via a Great Gate induces the same power increase. Not at all sure what gave me this impression. But that's my guess on that.
Let's remember that all those years ago Loki ate Bel's hearthorde(or whatever they are called), Then Danny ate Loki's stolen hearthordes. Now we know a mage's outself is their consciousness separated from their body. Soooo... I believe Loki left Bel's body on the third world without a consciousness, as a result it fell into a magical coma. Then he feared Bel's consciousness taking him over so he somehow merged with the tree and put ALL THE VOICES to "sleep". As far as Bel's return I think that Danny's will prove too inexperienced/unprepared to KEEP Bel trapped. Allowing him to use Danny's body and magic to create a Great Gate back to his own body...
Now... As for the potential of gatemagery: perhaps gatemages can change size by creating the mouth end wide enough to walk in normally, but the tail end 1/3 of the size? Or gain the powers of other types of mages by eating their hearthordes in the same way they eat unused gates? Maybe they shape shift by using their gates to manually rearrange their bodies or distort their features and proportions? I'm really anxious to see what Orson Scott Card does with the gatefathers.
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I think Bel is a manmage. My belief is that manmagery works something like gatemagery - perhaps it is even the same thing, just used in a different manner. But each person that Bel controls, he leaves a part of himself behind in. When Loki swallowed Bel's outself, he was unable to suck in the stray parts and Bel still has the bits he has put in other people. Further, he can be immortal by possessing other people - I guess transferring his inself.
So he's still alive. And either he went to Westalia as Ced or he is in control of Ced's body. The limited outself he was left with after the battle with Loki explains why he isn't a ruler. He can only take over so many people. Maybe he seeks to retrieve his outself from Loki?
And I wonder if the Christian god gets involved? Is he real?
Posts: 2 | Registered: Jan 2012
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So, I just listened to the audio book again, and I noticed something that connected a few disparate bits of the story. Loki's outself said"and Belle will ride the droughters into Westil and take over that world. Now, the first thing I remembered was how Danny wondered if a mage was riding him as a heartbound and he never realized. Then I remembered that Hermia said that men and women who went through a great gate would become inhumanly strong. And that made me think of how the goal of the orphans is to open the great gates for all, EVEN DROUGHTERS! You guys have only called Belle a manmage or a gatemage, but what if he was an extremely powerful Thoughtfather who had taken over a gatefather? Also, while we are wondering how Loki got into the tree, everyone forgot how Loki learned how to eat a hearthorde from Belle. Maybe he also learned the trick of how to become a tree from Belle, who could have used a treemage he inhabited to do it. A manmage would only need his outself and invest a larger portion of his outself into one person, he can easily live for centuries in the tree, maintaining his consciousness in his main host. If he is really strong, he could inhabit every Droughter, only nudging the ones he thinks are important, lying dormant in the rest. Belle's plan was probably to take all of the drougthers through a great gate to make them stronger, then take over westil, and then go back to mittlegard and finish off the other mages. It makes sense to take over the droughters, as there are more of them, and it probably takes less to use a non-mage. So the last question is who Belle's main host? It has to be a mage, but not one of the families,because they dont encourage the great gates for mages, much less non-mages. So it must be an Orphan, even the leader of the orphans, but if not, then I'd say it was stone, until the moment that they were going to Westil, he must have decided that it would be better to use Seds power. After all, Sed might even be a Galebreath, while Stone is a meadowfriend.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Oh yeah, and if you want to think of a way to imprison someone, you can create public gates all around the person, leading to the moon, and even make gates on the outside to make it so that no one could ever so much as see the space, so that it would be as though the space never existed
Posts: 2 | Registered: Aug 2012
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I just realized I really need to reread this book as I don't remember half of what is being said here.
Posts: 115 | Registered: May 2011
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