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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Natural Products and anti-vaccines (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Natural Products and anti-vaccines
GaalDornick
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My sister is married to a chiropractor and has a 7 month old son. My brother-in-law is strongly against vaccinations and is always spouting off conspiracy theories about the government manipulating so-and-so. My sister, who is very intelligent but does not think like a skeptic, often believes what he says. While she still says she wants to give her son most of the recommended vaccines, she buys into some other things that are regarded as pseudoscience, like certain alternative medicines, refusal to buy any foods not labeled as having no GMOs, etc. I'm not good at picking my battles and end up frequently arguing with him over every comment he makes that I disagree with. For example, this morning my brother was reading an article about Bobby Fisher and mentioned that he was a holocaust denier and anti-American. My brother-in-law chimed in that it probably isn't true and that the American government made up these facts to make him look bad because they didn't like him. While I think he may have been saying this tongue-in-cheek or maybe just to get a rise out of me, I also think that deep-down he believes the things he makes up.

What is the right way of dealing with these claims and can someone provide me with a clear, concise rebuttal of anti-vaccination claims so that I can convince my sister to make sure my nephew gets vaccinated?

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Samprimary
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Bobby Fischer was not a happy person and he went completely off his rocker and was quite mentally ill later in life and he was absolutely very clearly, with plentiful evidence, a holocaust denier. This is an unambiguous thing. You can probably even find video of him saying it, while probably also looking .. oh, is there a pc word for it? Probably not. While looking incredibly hobotastic.

For the anti-vax crap start with probing to find if they are believers in the thimerosal controversy, a.k.a. the idea that mercury in vaccines was giving people health issues and/or autism.

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Samprimary
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Here's him on Philippine radio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_11Cdxvtfo#t=31

and here's another interview transcript where he goes all nuts on ~the joooooz~

http://www.heretical.com/miscella/fischer.html

Fischer: This is just a conspiracy against me by the Jews.

Mercado: Why? Why?

Fischer: Those filthy, filthy bastards. You know they've trying to take over the world.

Mercado: Why?

Fischer: You know they invented the Holocaust story. There's no such. There was no holocaust of the Jews in World War II.

Mercado: Really?

Fischer: They've been pulling this shit from time immemorial about persecution. They're a filthy, lying, bastard people. That's all they ever do. That's all they'll ever be.

Mercado: Why do you have this thing about the Jews?

Fischer: I have no thing. They have a thing about me.

here's him talking new world order on video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QryuMf8qZ0g

and here's another thing where he totally loves all them jews and wants to give them a hug and loves america <3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKJozoTJWcg

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GaalDornick
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I'm more concerned about the vaccinations. Do you know of any links that provide a clear understanding to someone not from a science background of why anti-vaccination fears are unfounded?
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Samprimary
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I can actually try to make a concise explanation with links, gimme a min
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Darth_Mauve
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When dealing with fanatics I've found three useful tactics.

1) Reverse the proof. Their standard tactic is to make a statement, then wait for you to prove them wrong. They are prepared to attack any standard proof you may have with bad science or anecdotes or lies. Reverse the requirement, telling them to prove to you why they are right. Why is there a link between vaccinations and what ever they are afraid of. What proof do they have that they are right?

2) Humor. They take this very seriously. If you are brave enough to argue be brave enough to just laugh at their ideas. Take it as a joke. They will get mad, take offense, and you will not convince them that they are wrong--but you will get others to see how silly it all is. "Yes, because millions of doctors out there want to drum up Autism business by poisoning babies. Man, the ROI on that is way to small to be anything but a joke."

3) Ignore them. They want to be special by proselytizing special things. If you can just say, "You really think that, how odd. Don't you think the weather is really warm for this time of year." They enjoy the argument and beating smart people. The best tactic is not to play their game to begin with.

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MattP
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You are unlikely to change his mind, so this may be a matter of picking your battles. People don't change their opinions easily, especially about something with a conspiracy angle, so going up against family on something like this could just lead to not being invited to Thanksgiving dinner.

Not that it's not worth an attempt, but don't assume that properly armed with data and logic that you'll magically triumph.

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Aros
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Most anti-vaccine people are either making money off of the trend or have a fervent believer friend / relative / etc making money off of it. Or they're just super gullible.

Chiropractic is pretty much a pseudoscience anyway. People justify and reinforce their beliefs. It's part of their self-identity to rationalize and build walls.

There's no arguing with crazy. The more you rail, the more you damage your relationship. Just shut your mouth.

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GaalDornick
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He's not making money off the trend and he's not crazy. I think he was just indoctrinated during chiropractic school in the dangers of vaccinations. I don't want to just give up because I want my nephew to be as safe and healthy as possible, and he claims he's going to give him some vaccines when he's nine months old, mostly because my sister isn't convinced he is right. I think that if I can show my sister easy to understand proof of its effectiveness and relieve some of her concerns, she will change her mind.
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Darth_Mauve
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Google, "Whooping cough outbreak" or have her google it. Page after page of the dangers just from Whooping Cough vaccination refusals from every major and minor news org.
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RivalOfTheRose
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This is a pretty quick read on some these very issues. Both of you should read, and "discuss" afterwards.

http://www.amazon.com/Denialism-Irrational-Thinking-Scientific-Threatens/dp/B003JTHRFU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384202596&sr=8-1&keywords=denialism

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Lysistrata
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quote:
Originally posted by RivalOfTheRose:
This is a pretty quick read on some these very issues. Both of you should read, and "discuss" afterwards.

http://www.amazon.com/Denialism-Irrational-Thinking-Scientific-Threatens/dp/B003JTHRFU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384202596&sr=8-1&keywords=denialism

The Amazon reviews say it's not great, or rather, "well intentioned but unfortunately not very balanced". It's actually pretty natural to react this way in the face of fear of the unknown or suspicion of something new, and he apparently is remarkably condescending to people who don't share his views rather than allowing for some level of human nature.

Do you know of a read with a more neutral point of view?

Anyway,
http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2013/08/measles-cases-holding-steady-in-tarrant-county-none-are-infectious.html/

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/08/26/antivax_communities_get_measles_outbreaks_linked_to_denial_of_vaccines.html

This was an anti-vax community. They had an outbreak of measles. From what I recall, Boulder, CO and Portland, OR also had measles scares because of the number of people in those communities who never had the MMR vaccine.

The diseases kill people. The vaccines have been proven over and over to prevent massive swaths of people dying. I can go find a study on it if it'd help. You could also reference the currently-stymied efforts to vaccinate children against polio in Pakistan, though that's more of a 'the Taliban is paranoid' issue which is entirely the US's fault for trying to catch bin Laden with a bogus hepatitis B vaccination program.

Regardless of the reason, though, polio is still a problem, and while we've chased it into a few corners of the world where it's endemic, stuff like this is preventing us from eradicating it entirely.

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RivalOfTheRose
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It is definitely biased against all of that stuff, but it is quick read to get introduced to some of the anti-arguments. He doesn't go too in depth, but could help you in the right direction of where to do/get further research.

As a father of a one-year old, this book helped me figure out what we wanted to go regarding vaccines.

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CT
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British Columbia's public health department and association of nurses got together to make an immunization communication tool for healthcare providers. It's a sort of FAQ of vaccination, including some of the myths and misrepresentations out there.

(23 page PDF in easy-to-read format)

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vineyarddawg
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I have a cousin who claims that her autistic son had his autism caused by mercury in one of the vaccinations he got at their local health department. (The timing of the onset of his autistic behavior was coincidental with his vaccinations, but who really knows.)

It simply is true that much of the vaccine stock in the U.S. has trace amounts of mercury, and much of that stock is distributed to health departments, where it usually is administered to families/children of lower socioeconomic status.

It's a huge logical leap, though, to take those facts and deduce that vaccines are responsible for the rise in numbers of autistic children, however, and is even a larger leap to the conspiracy theory that the healthcare industry/government/Russians/Formics (choose your bad guy) are intentionally causing it.

My wife and I are about to adopt our first child, and I have no reservations about getting them vaccinated. I've done a substantial amount of research myself, and while I don't know if every single vaccine is a necessity (such as the vaccine for chicken pox... really?), the standard vaccines like MMR, DPT, and such are definitely worth whatever small risk you might be taking of exposing your child to trace amounts of mercury.

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Lysistrata
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quote:
Originally posted by vineyarddawg:
(such as the vaccine for chicken pox... really?)

The argument for the chickenpox vaccine is that it makes it far less likely that a kid will get shingles as an adult.

Otherwise, chickenpox is usually less dangerous to have as a child because adults tend to have a more severe infection. Heck, there are parties that parents have to basically rub their uninfected kids on a kid who has chickenpox so they'll get the natural immunity (though reactivation of the virus causes shingles in adulthood and apparently something like 1 in 3 adults will have shingles in their lifetime).

This particular vaccine is something of an exception to the rule because even with the vaccine, you might get it anyway, and there's a balance between the vaccine and being willing to chance it with shingles (which are incredibly painful but typically non-life-threatening). There's a shingles vaccine, but protection isn't permanent and it's typically seen in people older than 65 anyway.

(NB: chickenpox and shingles are caused by the same virus but are not the same condition)

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dkw
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The chickenpox vaccine also reduces incidents of nasty bacterial infections, since kids are more susceptible to them when they have chicken pox. Chicken pox itself is usually (but not always) not terribly dangerous, but if it opens you up to flesh eating bacteria . . . I'll take the shot, thanks. Or rather, my kids will. And did.
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Samprimary
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quote:
such as the vaccine for chicken pox... really?
speaking as a person who did not have a chickenpox vaccination, then went on to have shingles when the dormant chickenpox virus exploded out of my spinal column:

shingles can be one of the most mindbendingly awful things you can ever go through, i was literally put on drugs that could dull my nervous system enough that i would not be in so much pain that it would permanently damage my pain sensing nerves enough that i would have phantom pains along my back and sides for the rest of my life

that's how much shingles can hurt

do the chickenpox vaccine oh god

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Aros
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quote:
Originally posted by vineyarddawg:
It simply is true that much of the vaccine stock in the U.S. has trace amounts of mercury, and much of that stock is distributed to health departments, where it usually is administered to families/children of lower socioeconomic status.

Not really. . . .

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Thimerosal/Index.html

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Heisenberg
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I would look back a few weeks on this forum for the that article about the Southern mega church that told their middle-upper class members to forgo vaccinations for their children because their god would protect them, and then they had themselves a measles outbreak. Show that to your sister and ask her if she's willing to depend on God to protect her child from measles and the various other diseases that children regularly receive immunity to.

Does anyone think we'll have an actually dangerous, mutated strain break out of one of these crazy enclaves one day to infect even those who received the original vaccine? If that should happen, how long do you think it would take for it to become law that every child receive vaccines unless they have a doctor excusing them for a very good reason? (Immune deficiencies, etc.)

I think it would take about five minutes, myself, and I think it's pretty stupid that it's not the case now. There's nothing at all to support the idea that vaccines cause autism, and even if there WERE, I'd still be in favor of mandatory vaccination. Putting up a fraction of one percent of kids getting autism versus the deaths, injury, and suffering caused by non-vaccination, and the new resistant forms that are likely to pop up in any population of non-vaccinated children, I know what I would choose. The world's not perfect and sometimes (most of the time) what things really come down to is picking the least crappy option.

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Samprimary
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I know that optional child vaccination is something that exists so long as we're not confronted with a particularly acute consequence of it. Given a particularly serious disease event, it would be made into a mandatory thing.

I also note that most people's attitudes on vaccination here are the byproduct of the security afforded to us by having been in a world that has known the blessing of vaccination for all of living memory. Most people literally just don't have any idea what they save us from.

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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by CT:
British Columbia's public health department and association of nurses got together to make an immunization communication tool for healthcare providers. It's a sort of FAQ of vaccination, including some of the myths and misrepresentations out there.

(23 page PDF in easy-to-read format)

CT, your link isn't working (at least for me).
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scifibum
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It did work for me.

Also here:
http://filebin.ca/11ke7zHQuD30/CDC_IC_Tool.pdf

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Stone_Wolf_
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My wife and I had our children vacinated. My wife was a certified medical assistant, so kinda no brainer for us.
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vineyarddawg
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quote:
Originally posted by Aros:
quote:
Originally posted by vineyarddawg:
It simply is true that much of the vaccine stock in the U.S. has trace amounts of mercury, and much of that stock is distributed to health departments, where it usually is administered to families/children of lower socioeconomic status.

Not really. . . .

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Thimerosal/Index.html

Actually, yes, really. Note that I said "trace amounts of Mercury." The FDA's own website states this at this link. The pertinent quote from that site (emphasis added):

quote:
Thimerosal is a mercury-containing organic compound (an organomercurial). Since the 1930s, it has been widely used as a preservative in a number of biological and drug products, including many vaccines, to help prevent potentially life threatening contamination with harmful microbes. Over the past several years, because of an increasing awareness of the theoretical potential for neurotoxicity of even low levels of organomercurials and because of the increased number of thimerosal containing vaccines that had been added to the infant immunization schedule, concerns about the use of thimerosal in vaccines and other products have been raised. Indeed, because of these concerns, the Food and Drug Administration has worked with, and continues to work with, vaccine manufacturers to reduce or eliminate thimerosal from vaccines.

Thimerosal has been removed from or reduced to trace amounts in all vaccines routinely recommended for children 6 years of age and younger, with the exception of inactivated influenza vaccine...

... Vaccines with trace amounts of thimerosal contain 1 microgram or less of mercury per dose.

My point was that many vaccines still contain trace amounts of Thimerosal/Mercury, but I don't think there's a scientific reason to be concerned about it.
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MattP
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Most vaccines, however, are completely free of mercury. There's only one non-influenza vaccine on the FDA list that contains even a trace amount and from some quick Googling it appears that it is no longer produced.

So in practical terms - no, childhood vaccines don't contain even trace amounts of mercury.

To put the amount in the flu vaccines in perspective, most vaccines are 0.5 ml (~0.5g), meaning there is at most 0.5 micrograms of mercury in a dose of one vaccine . A can of albacore tuna has >50 micrograms of mercury.

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CT
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quote:
Originally posted by Jake:
quote:
Originally posted by CT:

(23 page PDF in easy-to-read format)

CT, your link isn't working (at least for me). [/QB]
Oh no!

If scifibum's link didn't work, Jake, then I will email you a copy. There is one graphic near the beginning I find critical (number of antigens in 1 vaccine from 1980s vs total number of antigens in 4 vaccines now -- the visual is telling).

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Drifter
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
I know that optional child vaccination is something that exists so long as we're not confronted with a particularly acute consequence of it. Given a particularly serious disease event, it would be made into a mandatory thing.

I also note that most people's attitudes on vaccination here are the byproduct of the security afforded to us by having been in a world that has known the blessing of vaccination for all of living memory. Most people literally just don't have any idea what they save us from.

Where I live we have older people who show the effects of Polio,(shortened limbs crooked backs etc and those who have relatives that didn't survive it) we have a big uptake of that particular vaccine because, I assume, there is living evidence. Sadly the other vaccines are not as popular, there is a pervasive attitude of the diseases being just a minor childhood illnesses.
So perhaps OP you could search out living evidence, accounts from older relatives what is was like having those diseases?

I remind people who wonder about vaccines what it was like when we didn't have them. When I was a kid, I remember walking past blacked out houses (measles) and seeing quarantine notices stuck to the front gate, some kids had to take months off school, my friend's sister went blind.
My biggest memory though, is that the vaccine was rolled out province by province over a few years, many parents were so desperate to get their kids vaccinated that they moved into the provinces with vaccines swamping the system.

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Amilia
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The anti-vax lobby was really strong when I was born. I don't know what their arguments were in the late 70s, but they were convincing enough that my mother seriously considered not getting me vaccinated. (Don't judge her too harshly--according to CT's link, the anti-vax lobby convinced entire countries not to vaccinate in the 70s.) But we're Mormon, and when I was a few months old, the First Presidency put out a message urging vaccination:

quote:
Every parent who has agonized when these diseases have maimed or brought premature death to their children would join us, we are certain, in a plea to mobilize against these deadly enemies.
Since this was coming from Pres. Kimball, who had to watch while his son fought polio, my mom figured he knew what he was talking about, and got me vaccinated. I got sick every time I got my shots,* but it wasn't nearly as bad as getting the real thing would have been, and I got all my shots. As did all my younger brothers and sisters.

So that is the highly unscientific story about how I was vaccinated.

*Probably less likely to happen now, as CT's link illustrates how many fewer antigens there are in vaccinations compared to when I was a baby.

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GaalDornick
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http://www.thedailysheeple.com/lead-developer-of-hpv-vaccines-comes-clean-warns-parents-young-girls-its-all-a-giant-deadly-scam_012014

What do you all think of this and how it relates to the anti-vaccination message as a whole?

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Xavier
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My initial reaction is that anything I read on a site called "the daily sheeple" is probably bogus.
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GaalDornick
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Mine too, but a quick google search shows otherwise.
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scifibum
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That's not a very balanced representation of Dr. Harper's concerns.

She thinks Gardasil is over-marketed and that more data is needed before people believe and act as though it will be effective for more than 5 years. She is also concerned about whether the adverse effects that have been reported might outweigh the benefits (in places where screening and treatment for cervical cancer is widespread and effective). However she has not positively claimed that this is the case - it's a concern she has raised. She wants more thorough warnings and caveats provided before people decide to use the vaccine, particularly in young girls.

This is all important to understand and consider if you are considering the vaccine for yourself or your kids.

But she most certainly didn't say it's all a giant deadly scam.

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theamazeeaz
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I have a friend who fainted after getting Gardasil. As in passed out on her way out of the doctor's office.

The doctors had made her get it after an abnormal Pap smear required a follow-up that turned out to be nothing. She hasn't had one as a girl because she was otherwise too old.

I think it was the second of the third doses. The third one went fine.

Her experience was that even fainting after Gardasil was MUCH MUCH better than what happens to you if you have a non-cancerous abnormal pap, let alone the cancerous one. If she had to get the shot knowing she would faint, she would do it again in a heartbeat to prevent the small chance of having the docs up in her crotch again in a major way.

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MattP
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quote:
I have a friend who fainted after getting Gardasil.
I once fainted after having my ear pricked prior to donating blood. Fainting after any medical procedure is not necessarily an indication that the procedure directly precipitated the fainting.
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Kwea
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It's a crack of crap.
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Shanna
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quote:
Originally posted by theamazeeaz:
I have a friend who fainted after getting Gardasil. As in passed out on her way out of the doctor's office.

The doctors had made her get it after an abnormal Pap smear required a follow-up that turned out to be nothing. She hasn't had one as a girl because she was otherwise too old.

I think it was the second of the third doses. The third one went fine.

Her experience was that even fainting after Gardasil was MUCH MUCH better than what happens to you if you have a non-cancerous abnormal pap, let alone the cancerous one. If she had to get the shot knowing she would faint, she would do it again in a heartbeat to prevent the small chance of having the docs up in her crotch again in a major way.

I fainted as well. Scared the daylights out of myself and the nurses. I don't remember it, but apparently I waved as I passed the front counter and went down like a tree. They had to break out the smelling salts to wake me. I don't remember feeling unwell after the shot and I had never fainted before despite getting yearly flu shots and having suffered more invasive injections (cortisol in the knee, do not recommend.)

At the time, I was eager for the vaccine since I come from a family with many occurences of cancer. My mother, who often has abnormal pap smears related to HPV, encouraged me to get it as well.

She's wary of the vaccine now. While I was pursuing my diagnosis of NCS, she saw alot of my symptoms mirrored in Gardisil patients now involved in lawsuits (though I insist that the four year gap rules me out). But I also have a little brother who developed juvenile diabetes after getting the meningitis vaccine in middle school. Personally, I think having two parents with auto-immune disorders meant that we had all the markers and if it wasn't a vaccine that hit the switch to turn them on, then it would have been the flu or some other trigger.

As I remind my mom, its just as likely that we would have developed chronic conditions regardless of the vaccine, and both are preferable to cancer or meningitis.

I still get my flu shot every year.

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GaalDornick
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This has been thrown at me all day as proof that the FDA is corrupt/incompetent/doesn't care about the health of anyone/etc. Which of course leads to the argument that if they're wrong about this, they're wrong about everything else.

Advice on how to respond?

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MattP
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The chemical is controversial because there are some indications that it may be harmful and a fairly small body of research on its effects.

Vaccines, on the other hand, are probably the most thoroughly studied compounds that are taken into the human body with the vast majority of research indicating that they are safe and effective.

Vaccines aren't safe because the FDA says they are safe. They are safe because the body of evidence for their safety is overwhelming.

Also the FDA is not the governing body we should be paying attention to regarding vaccines. That's the CDC.

The "it's used in yoga mats!" thing is ridiculous. Lots of food products also have non-food uses. Maltodextrin is being studied for use in batteries. Citric acid is used to develop photos.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
To say this word, you would emphasize the syllable "bon" -- but the chemical has been getting has not been good.
Holy crap I want to break that journalist's keyboard. It also contains the syllable "nide" which you find in chemicals like CYANIDE!
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narrativium
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
The "it's used in yoga mats!" thing is ridiculous. Lots of food products also have non-food uses. Maltodextrin is being studied for use in batteries. Citric acid is used to develop photos.

Two words: propylene glycol.
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Orincoro
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:puffs his e-cigarette: propylene glycol you say... :puff: fascinating.
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Altáriël of Dorthonion
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I wish you luck. I know so many people that I just can't reason with and the only solution I could come up with was to stop talking to them. I don't think I'd be able to stay calm with someone against vaccines, there's no denying I'd want to strangle them at least a little bit.
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Samprimary
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yeah normally i take the road of "politics is for the internet, not for time spent with human beings in person" but that kind of goes out the damn window when it comes to things like anti-vax, because this isn't a harmless fake belief, its a belief which becomes a public health issue. if you have ever watched a friend or the children of a friend suffer because they are immunocompromised and have to rely on herd immunity, and then some granola woo crunchies are getting them a case of ****ing pertussis because they won't vaccinate their kids
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Samprimary
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however done studies came out which kind of showed that apparently facts don't change anti vax mins so welp
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narrativium
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
:puffs his e-cigarette: propylene glycol you say... :puff: fascinating.

:puffs e-pipe: Indeed. :puff:
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GaalDornick
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http://www.livingwhole.org/a-parents-response-to-the-new-york-times-article-eliminate-vaccine-exemptions/

Any thoughts, comments, or in-depth scientific rebuttals are appreciated. [Smile]

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theamazeeaz
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I suggest putting "smallpox" into google images.
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GaalDornick
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That wouldn't disprove anything mentioned in the link I posted.
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Samprimary
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first come the thoughts and comments. the scientific rebuttals can come next.

thoughts and comments: this woman is a dingbat. she's to health and pediatric and dietary sciences what the Discovery Institute is to geology and biology: a clueless, incredulous, incurious black hole of half-baked idiocy that they would rather die than abandon as a matter of faith. Indeed, she even apparently contributes to NaturalNews, which instantly puts out some alarm bells. also she says she was diagnosed with chrohn's and cured it doubtlessly with her ~raw natural living~ and naturopathy. yes, she cured chrohns! WOW! that's never happened before let's celebrate how she did it probably with oregano and vitamin c or maybe just good vibes and a non-GMO diet. boy i sure hope that chrohn's typical cycles of inactivity followed by severe flare-up with dramatic health concerns don't happen like they generally do and force her to recognize the absolute crap of her statement!

in her About Her post she not only says "we do not vaccinate" she says "we do not medicate" — she pimps out naturopathic garbage, does a completely excruciatingly anemic diet plan for her kids that reads like she played diet "no-no food" fad bingo and as such restricts her kids from even the consumption of gluten, which is not at all harmful to people who do not specifically have an autoimmune condition called Celiac Sprue that causes inflammation in response to gluten exposure. She's an idiot about science, medicine, diet, parenting, nutrition, insists on giving birth without even a doula present. she can be as much of a hippy-crunchy woo-head as she wants with all that other bullshit, but it comes to me as no surprise that she has also decided to be a mouthbreathing imbecile on the subject of vaccines. I see she is already afraid of microwaves, possibly on account of all those ~unnatural energy waves~ it puts in your food that makes it badderer and less natureler. I cannot wait for her future revelations and discoveries about fluoride and — dare I hope, chemtrails.

Every part of her article made me even just a tiny bit angrier than the last part. I don't know what individual part most made me want to manifest the article in realspace so that I could angrily throttle and yell at it as an avatar of idiot anti-vax. Perhaps it was when she criticized the True Total Scientificalness of the claim that vaccines are safe and effective because she felt that you can't make this claim credibly when according to her 'they are not subjected to double-blind placebo controlled studies using a saline solution that is the standard for evidence-based medicine' then later in the same article pretty much says 'and we live in an age of chronic disease now how can we not blame it on the vaccines!' oh i guess those kinds of assertions don't need double blind trials or anything. it's a good thing that chronic diseases are on the rise and this is totally unrelated to the extention of lifespan due to modern medicine and much more complete methods of conclusive diagnosis, no it's just that people didn't have as many chronic diseases before, it must have been the vacciiiiiines

maybe it was the double mention of GBS (nasty thing, GBS, my recommendation is to go through nothing like it please) that just showed a mind-throttling inattention to the ambiguous understandings in general of autoimmune conditions like GBS and MS, but let's just kitchen sink it in with a condemnation of vaccines

maybe it was her garbleflarble pseudolegal logic involving the constitution, presuming it to do things it does not do in terms of blanket support of "i'm the parent so i can do this and this and this"

maybe it was when she said "Herd immunity does not exists (sp) when it comes to vaccines."

oh my god shut up, shut up you dumb terrible person

at least you can get your claptrap published on naturalnews as Dr. Megan Heimer, NHE, J.D, N.D. to teach people the TRUTH of vaccines next to the TRUTH of colloidal silver, fluoride, wild oregano oil, homeopathy, chakra cleansing, and unironically drilling a hole in your skull for health benefits. I'm glad your article also finds a home at the daily sheeple next to ads for machines that use one "weird" trick the power companies don't want you to know about to run your car on water, and emergency seed bins for surviving the coming collapse next to your silver and gold bullion piles. yes this is all unfair guilt by association simply because of the communities that pick up on your unscientific garbage but i don't care because you're stupid and your article is stupid and you should feel bad, you pseudoscientific dope.

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