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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » MRA/PUAhate/"incel" "nice guy" combats "misandry" by shooting up a sorority (Page 1)

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Author Topic: MRA/PUAhate/"incel" "nice guy" combats "misandry" by shooting up a sorority
Samprimary
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“On the day of retribution, I am going to enter the hottest sorority house of UCSB and I will slaughter every single spoiled, stuck-up blond slut I see inside there,” he announces. “All those girls that I’ve desired so much.”

“I’ll take great pleasure in slaughtering all of you,” he says later. “You will finally see that I am in truth the superior one. The true alpha male.”

The man in the video then pauses for a horrifying laugh.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/deranged-santa-barbara-california-killer-tied-premeditated-youtube-video-reports-article-1.1804354#ixzz32ev5686S

[ May 28, 2014, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Samprimary ]

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Wingracer
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Apparently his dad is the second unit director for The Hunger Games.
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Destineer
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His laugh is really disturbing. It's like a parody of bad villain acting. He does seem like a dude from PUAHate, doesn't he?

Compared with the Virginia Tech guy, he certainly feels a lot less like an isolated psycho and a lot more like a product of cultural forces.

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Wingracer
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Now they have found three more bodies in his apartment.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingracer:
Now they have found three more bodies in his apartment.

Yikes!
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Lyrhawn
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I think there's some interesting points of discussion in all this.

He's actually not a bad looking kid, which makes me think his problems and frustrations have a lot more to do with his personality than anything. That might seem like a "duh" statement, but if we work from the premise that this is something that took a long time to build to, then there was a time when he was, if not normal, certainly not homicidal. But that speaks to what youth culture looks like now, where extreme social ostracism can literally drive kids crazy.

I think the core of his problem is a subset of a larger problem that besets adolescent males. They're bombarded with too many competing images and ideas of what they are supposed to be. He lays out pretty specifically what his interpretation of male life for his age group is supposed to be. His inability to achieve that illusion created an inferiority complex he sought to correct (overcorrect) through pretty barbaric methods. I think by that point he was pretty clearly divorced from social norms that defined his demographic.

Ultimately it's his own fault, we can't foist off blame on women who didn't like him or violent video games and music or whatever the popular scapegoat is. But I think it's worth discussing our society at large and how adolescent males are doing. I think it's a conversation we have for five minutes after these shootings (rarely substantively), and then forget until the next one comes around, but it's worth the same sustained conversations we tend to have about women. Boys and young men are dealing with just as much crap as girls and young women, but no one seems to want to talk about it until the boys and young men act out.

I also think it might help the conversation to shift our view of them, to a degree, from aggressors to victims. Or at least see both those things in parallel. The rape crisis on campuses right now is just starting to turn in a direction that asks why young men are doing this and what we can do to stop it before it happens, but for a long time the conversation was only about identifying the perpetrators and prosecuting.

There's a crisis in America's youth, a violent one in America's male youth. The conversation needs to last longer than five minutes.

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TomDavidson
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http://jezebel.com/elliot-rodgers-final-videos-racist-postings-leaked-1581163115
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Lyrhawn
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That's not surprising.

Given the sexual power white men have imbued minorities with, particularly black men, as a subject of interracial sexual taboo, and given his sexual inferiority complex, I'd be shocked if he didn't have hangups when it comes to interracial dating.

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Dogbreath
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Wait, how exactly did white men imbue minorities with sexual power? Were we all like "yeah, we have too much already, why don't you have some"? Because I don't remember this happening.
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PSI Teleport
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Married to a Native American, and let me just say to all you white men out there...

...thank you. Very much.

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
http://jezebel.com/elliot-rodgers-final-videos-racist-postings-leaked-1581163115

Tom, if you read to the bottom of the article, you get:

quote:
Update: A commenter has stated that the postings on Wizardchan were not the work of Elliot Rodger. The videos were posted by another board member who saw himself in Elliot Rodger. The videos, however, are authentic and were posted yesterday.
Honestly, I think it's pretty disingenuous of Jezebel not to put that disclaimer at the top of the article, since pretty much the entire thing is inaccurate. I realize Jezebel isn't meant to be a shining beacon of journalistic integrity, but still...
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Dogbreath
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While I'm in this thread, I wanted to reply a little bit as far as the shooter's motives, mindset, etc. Lyrhawn, you can see this as something of a reply to your post, but I'm going to go a lot of places you didn't cover, so don't think I'm putting words in your mouth if I do. It's not my intention.

I think perhaps the leading cause of all violent, abhorrent or unjustified behavior in the world is the concept of victimization. I don't mean identifying who is at fault and who is the victim (which is important for legal and moral reasons), I mean using one's status as a victim to justify avoiding responsibility for one's actions.

As an example, my wife and I have had the painful experience of watching a (now mostly former) friend start down this dark path. She had something very bad happen to her several years ago. And since then (especially in the recent months) her behavior and outbursts have become increasingly more outrageous. If a friend disagrees with her on anything, or even (like we did) suggests she needs to get help, they're "stabbing her in the back" and that justifies an angry blowup and threats of violence. When we confronted her about her unacceptable behavior she said "what? It's all *my* fault again, right? Why is it always *my* fault? *They* are the ones who stabbed me in the back!"

Basically, she doesn't see herself responsible for any of her outbursts, because she's the victim. So anything she does is justified. And she places herself as the victim in more and more scenarios. A guy shows interest in her. "He's trying to take advantage of me!" Outburst. A guy she likes doesn't like her. Weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, and many rants about how "there are no good guys out there, they're all a bunch of scumbags." She can't hold down a job, can't stay in any place for too long, can't maintain any friends, because she's constantly making herself the victim of perceived insults, or overreacting to minor insults.

And you see this sort of behavior played out in many historical conflicts. Al-Qaeda sees itself as being oppressed by the western world, the U.S. in particular. (Which is not an unjustified sentiment, IMO) So Al-Qaeda kills 3,000 civilians. And inversely, look at all the military aggression and atrocities justified by "9/11".

You'll note with my example, it started out with a legitimately horrible thing happening to a person, and I think that's probably true in this case too. Maybe the guy in question was bullied, and the (actual or perceived) motive for the bullying was his lack of sexual prowess. Or maybe it started small. One time, he tried to pick up a girl, and she turned him down a little harshly, and he decided she was being cruel and he was the victim. It doesn't matter. What matters is the guy decided that since the blame lied outside of himself, so did the responsibility.

And that belief - the belief that since he wasn't to blame, he wasn't responsible - festered and grew until he could justify doing whatever he wanted to the "sluts" who had hurt him so much.

So no, I don't think it's necessarily a cultural thing, I think it's something endemic to all of mankind. I think the one crucial point of becoming an adult is accepting that you are responsible for everything you do, and that you are in control of everything you do, whether or not someone else is to blame or someone else gave you the orders, etc. You can still choose to be reactive or proactive. Any therapist helping someone get past a traumatic experience will, as soon as it's possible, try help the person go from a mindset where someone else is in control of the them to a mindset where they are once again in control of their own lives. And that's where I think this guy went wrong - he let himself think that these women were in control of him instead of himself, so anything he did to lash out was justified.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
Wait, how exactly did white men imbue minorities with sexual power? Were we all like "yeah, we have too much already, why don't you have some"? Because I don't remember this happening.

We spent 200 years treating black men as scary sexual boogeymen. We went to extreme lengths to keep black men away from white women because we said black men were crazy oversexed animals with huge penises that would ruin our white women. We passed laws to make sure they couldn't have children, couldn't get married, and created social taboos so they couldn't even speak to each other in passing on the street.

Over time, black men especially, but some other minority groups as well, developed a sexual power from being taboo. Women were told they were off limits because their sexuality was just too overwhelming. How do you think that kind of warning works in practice when you reach the 60s and experimentation takes on a new place in society? When taboo breaking became the cultural norm of the 60s and 70s, black men, white women and sex was possibly the greatest taboo of all, but it was one we created from scratch to prevent mixing of the races.

As such, black men still carry some of the power from that taboo, and interracial dating is still not completely accepted, and still a little rebellious.

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Lyrhawn
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Dogbreath -

As to your other post, a couple things.

I never said victimization was an excuse for his actions. But I also think you might have been missing the point with why I think the victim classification is important.

When he's the aggressor and the criminal, we don't spend any time talking about how he got to where he was when he did what he did. The officer at the scene, the first one to talk to he media, said he's obviously crazy. Well, if he's crazy we can just chalk it up to another mentally disturbed person and move on. But what the shooter said in at least one of his videos is very much derived from culture at large. He sees in movies, TV and music a life he is SUPPOSED to be living, and when reality doesn't match the archetype, he slowly withdraws from society and develops a revenge complex. He didn't invent the archetype in his head, he described pretty clearly in his video the same point of view that millions of college students have about what college life is supposed to be like.

But this speaks to a larger problem about young men in our society and the discussion on who is a victim. We have a rape crisis on college campuses. Why are young men raping young women in such huge numbers? I think we have to consider that we are doing something wrong with young men and as a result of our negligence, many of them are victims who aren't getting the proper care they need, and when they don't get that care, they do very bad things to others.

To reiterate, the important point of the "victim" label isn't to excuse their behavior. It's to try to identify the source of their behavior. Writing everyone off who does something bad as crazy suggests there was never a way to prevent what happened. But often these people suffered some sort of trauma that pushed them in that direction.

Young men have fewer resources available to them when it comes to dealing with mental health issues. We don't even really know how many young men suffer from various issues because they seldom report their problems or seek help, and they tend to spiral out of control and become more violent than women when their issues escalate and manifest. In the same way police officers need training to better deal with female rape victims, many mental health care and law enforcement officials need training to take male problems more seriously as well. And we as a society need to have a discussion about what is wrong with young men in our society, particularly young white men. Because all is not well.

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Dogbreath
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No, I understand your point and I don't think you were trying to justify his actions. I just worry that a big part of the dark side of MRA/nice guy culture involves trying to pass the blame for sexual rejection off on women, which leads to that victim complex you mention. Which is why I'm hesitate to use the word "victim" here. I do agree there is a pretty huge cultural problem with expectations vs. reality when it comes to sexuality.

In TV shows, even the nerdy guys can expect to have sex with a woman roughly 30 seconds after starting to date her, and they typically have more success than almost anyone in r/l. The fact that a man would feel ashamed of his virginity to the point where places like Wizardchan need to exist is pretty sad, IMO. Ostracizing or belittling someone for how much or how little sex they have is unacceptable, and for a lot of college-aged men (18-22 or so) it's a very real thing.

I think the best way to go about fixing the problem would be to send a clear message that your self-worth isn't defined by your ability to get women to sleep with you, or that "sexual conquest" shouldn't be seen primarily as an empowering and affirming act. And honestly, these are lessons that most men do seem to learn later in life, it's mostly young men that are struggling the most with this. So maybe an emphasis on mentorship and education would be best. I certainly know if I have a son, he and I are going to talk about these sorts of things quite a bit when he's a teenager.

But I think most rape and sexual crimes in general stem from a handful of things:

1) A mindset that devalues or dehumanizes women.
2) A lack of confidence or self-worth.
3) The belief that masculinity, self-worth, and the respect of peers comes from "sexual conquest."
4) A belief that you deserve sex, and have been victimized by a woman/women in general who have turned you down.

any combination of 1,2, and 3, or 2, 3, and 4, or all of the above are pretty dangerous IMO. (which is why I was very uncomfortable with some of the things Sa'eed used to say here) That being said, they are somewhat inter-related - i.e, it's hard to have 3 without having 1, if not impossible.

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Samprimary
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quote:
I just worry that a big part of the dark side of MRA/nice guy culture involves trying to pass the blame for sexual rejection off on women, which leads to that victim complex you mention
substitute 'big part of the dark side of' with 'this is pretty much all of'
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Sinclair
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The poster Simprimary who created this thread seems to have an axe to grind against MRAs. There are various men's groups online who all seem to complain about feminism in one form or another, but to conflate them entirely is intellectually dishonest. For instance, this fellow who went on the shooting rampage was a member of "PUAhate" website which was populated by men who were angry that the miracles pick-up artist gurus promised didn't pan out for them.
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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
Wait, how exactly did white men imbue minorities with sexual power? Were we all like "yeah, we have too much already, why don't you have some"? Because I don't remember this happening.

We spent 200 years treating black men as scary sexual boogeymen. We went to extreme lengths to keep black men away from white women because we said black men were crazy oversexed animals with huge penises that would ruin our white women. We passed laws to make sure they couldn't have children, couldn't get married, and created social taboos so they couldn't even speak to each other in passing on the street.

Over time, black men especially, but some other minority groups as well, developed a sexual power from being taboo. Women were told they were off limits because their sexuality was just too overwhelming. How do you think that kind of warning works in practice when you reach the 60s and experimentation takes on a new place in society? When taboo breaking became the cultural norm of the 60s and 70s, black men, white women and sex was possibly the greatest taboo of all, but it was one we created from scratch to prevent mixing of the races.

As such, black men still carry some of the power from that taboo, and interracial dating is still not completely accepted, and still a little rebellious.

Unless we're using very different definitions of word "power" here, I highly, highly doubt being oppressed and discriminated against is an empowering experience.

Case in point, a good friend of mine (not Jamaican, regrettably) has been stationed in Virginia for the past 3 years, and he talks to me pretty frequently about his dating life. One of the biggest irritations he faces is being told "sorry, I don't date black men" by white, latina, and sometimes even black women. I somehow doubt that, as a statistical whole, black men are more likely to date white women than white men are. The fact that you do, occasionally, see black men with white girlfriends is due to the fact that there are about 5 white women for every black man in the US. If black men were more than 5 times more likely to date a white woman than a black woman, than you'd have an argument here. As it stands, I doubt it's even a 1 to 1 ratio.

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Sinclair
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quote:
We have a rape crisis on college campuses. Why are young men raping young women in such huge numbers? I think we have to consider that we are doing something wrong with young men and as a result of our negligence, many of them are victims who aren't getting the proper care they need, and when they don't get that care, they do very bad things to others.
There is no "rape crisis." There are girls making bad decisions and regretting it the next day accutely when word spreads that so-so nailed so-so.
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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by Sinclair:
The poster Simprimary who created this thread seems to have an axe to grind against MRAs. There are various men's groups online who all seem to complain about feminism in one form or another, but to conflate them entirely is intellectually dishonest. For instance, this fellow who went on the shooting rampage was a member of "PUAhate" website which was populated by men who were angry that the miracles pick-up artist gurus promised didn't pan out for them.

Back again?
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Sinclair
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
No, I understand your point and I don't think you were trying to justify his actions. I just worry that a big part of the dark side of MRA/nice guy culture involves trying to pass the blame for sexual rejection off on women, which leads to that victim complex you mention.

The real problem is that there is intense comptetition over women aged 18 to 28, not just by their male peers but by older males as well. This leads to a shortage at a time when young men are at the peak of their sexual potency. This is a problem that is not true of all communities within the nation but is true for the entire country. The whole Nice Guy lament/PUA scene is the result of this sexual darwinianism abetted by the sexual revolution.
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Sinclair
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
quote:
Originally posted by Sinclair:
The poster Simprimary who created this thread seems to have an axe to grind against MRAs. There are various men's groups online who all seem to complain about feminism in one form or another, but to conflate them entirely is intellectually dishonest. For instance, this fellow who went on the shooting rampage was a member of "PUAhate" website which was populated by men who were angry that the miracles pick-up artist gurus promised didn't pan out for them.

Back again?
I'm sorry what?
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Sinclair
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quote:
The fact that a man would feel ashamed of his virginity to the point where places like Wizardchan need to exist is pretty sad, IMO. Ostracizing or belittling someone for how much or how little sex they have is unacceptable, and for a lot of college-aged men (18-22 or so) it's a very real thing.

Legalizing prostitution would go a long way to solving this problem.

They don't have these sort of random shootings in Mexico (though there is a lot of criminal violence there due to the drug cartels.)

This is because the Mexican incel who would otherwise whine/feel ashamed just goes the local brothel or street corner where the prostitutes hang out without any fuss.

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Samprimary
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Hey everyone who is already having a discussion here:

Please put it on pause until our latest sockpuppet is removed, and don't even respond to it.

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Sinclair
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
Hey everyone who is already having a discussion here:

Please put it on pause until our latest sockpuppet is removed, and don't even respond to it.

I don't know what you mean by "sockpuppet" or why you're calling for me to be "removed." I registered to share my opinions. It appears you already have in mind the the exact discussion you want to have and don't want to deal with anyone who challenges your perspective.
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Rakeesh
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Yup. Good policy, Simprimary. It's an interesting, relevant discussion, but I think we should all agree either to completely not respond to him or simply wait. I'm happy with either one.

(For any actual newcomers, or simply those who don't recognize, Sinclair is a painfully obvious poster who has been banned under I believe at least three separate names, and whose chief hobby horse in recent months and years have been topics like these. He makes a habit of trolling. No one needs to take my word for it, either. In a thread that is not even a dozen posts long, there are three separate people recognizing him. So please, this isn't a 'benefit of the doubt' time.)

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Rakeesh
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Dogbreath, I suspect Lyrhawn meant to suggest that in the eyes of some people, minorities have a very narrow range of (often demeaning when it is actually dug into) sexual power, not that it is the sort of authentic power that really translated much. Power is perhaps the wrong word, given those qualifiers.
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Sinclair
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It's not a "discussion" when you "remove" the perspective you disagree with. Were you to have your way what you'd get is an "echo-chamber" where the like-minded mainly agree but vociferously argue and drone on about the mildest of differences while everyone patts themselves on the back for discussing things.
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narrativium
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Since pretty much all MRAssholes/PUAs/PUAhaters sound pretty much alike, I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that this one is Sa'eed.
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Sinclair
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quote:
Originally posted by narrativium:
Since pretty much all MRAssholes/PUAs/PUAhaters sound pretty much alike, I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that this one is Sa'eed.

It's very curious how much axe grinding is going on here, not just with the OP's slanderous title (equating the killer with MRAs) but in the feminist/liberal sphere as well who are all equating this young man's actions with MRAs. Example:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/24/1301671/-Elliot-Roger-Gunman-in-California-Mass-Shooting-was-influenced-by-the-Men-s-Rights-Movement

For those of you who don't have an axe to grind, this website is the main outlet for MRA views:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/

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Rakeesh
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I would. He sounds very similar, has the same hobby horse, and apparently registered for this topic where his first posts could have been taken wholesale from Clive/Sa'eed/whoever.
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Sinclair
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However it does appear that Elliot Dodger was versed in some manosphere theories. According to the UK "Mirror" this is an image he posted on his twitter:

http://i.imgur.com/5c24FF8.jpg

I believe the middle figure is somewhat of an exaggeration but it certainly gets at a truth.

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Sinclair
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
I would. He sounds very similar, has the same hobby horse, and apparently registered for this topic where his first posts could have been taken wholesale from Clive/Sa'eed/whoever.

Did those fellows enage in trolling or did they merely share a viewpoint you found objectionable?
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TomDavidson
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Trolling. For example, they would often pretend to be new posters even when it was painfully obvious that they were the same person under a new pseudonym.
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Sinclair
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Trolling. For example, they would often pretend to be new posters even when it was painfully obvious that they were the same person under a new pseudonym.

Repeated trolling is certainly obnoxious and ban-worthy. What is an example of their trolling as to justify banning in the first place?
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TomDavidson
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See, this isn't a game I'm going to play with you.
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Sinclair
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Roosh V's ROK article on this issue:

http://www.returnofkings.com/36135/no-one-would-have-died-if-pua-hate-killer-elliot-rodger-learned-game


A comment left by somebody:

quote:
Sexual frustration was the root of this tragedy.

Elliot, like many other millions of men, was going through deep-seated resentment and frustration that develops with time when the male sexuality does not have an outlet. It's just that unlike the other men, he was mentally ill, and extremely narcissistic, who lived in a world of his own.

No one gives a damn about the sexual frustration that accumulates within the vast majority of men these days. And why should they? Women don't give a f*ck about men. They never have and they never will.

The only solution is for men to create a safe, easy-access outlet for male sexuality where not just the regular, decent looking men, but also betas, omegas, desperate, ugly and depressed guys can channel their sexual energy occasionally.

Just. Legalize. Prostitution.
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Sinclair
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
See, this isn't a game I'm going to play with you.

I'm just curious about the identities of the people I am accused of being. If you don't know about them then it's cool, there's no need to play games or distract from the topic at hand: how sexual frustration leads to these sort of tragedies and what, if anything, can be done.
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BlackBlade
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Sinclair: Even if you are not a previous poster, (and I strongly suspect you are, and I wish you'd save me the trouble of proving it.) several of the things you have said cannot be tolerated on this board, including but not limited to stating that rape is not a problem.
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Sinclair
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I did not say that "rape is not a problem."

I did not say that "rape is not a problem."

I did not say that "rape is not a problem."

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BlackBlade
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quote:
There is no "rape crisis." There are girls making bad decisions and regretting it the next day accutely when word spreads that so-so nailed so-so.
Sounds to me like when there isn't a crisis, there is a moderate, a minor, or no problem. When you then contrast it by stating what the real problem is, you are not so subtly saying rape doesn't happen, so it's is equivalent to saying rape isn't a problem.

I wish we didn't have to play this game every few months.

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Sinclair
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
There is no "rape crisis." There are girls making bad decisions and regretting it the next day accutely when word spreads that so-so nailed so-so.
Sounds to me like when there isn't a crisis, there is a moderate, a minor, or no problem. When you then contrast it by stating what the real problem is, you are not so subtly saying rape doesn't happen, so it's is equivalent to saying rape isn't a problem.

I wish you wouldn't interpret my posts so erroneously as to make your interpretation a not-so subtle case of strawmanning.

Poster up thread: there is a rape crisis on college campuses.

Me: There is no such crisis.

BlackBlade: OMG you're denying rape happens.

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Sinclair
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http://time.com/100091/campus-sexual-assault-christina-hoff-sommers/

Striking passage:

quote:
It appears that we are in the throes of one of those panics where paranoia, censorship, and false accusations flourish—and otherwise sensible people abandon their critical facilities. We are not facing anything as extreme as the Salem Witch Trials or the McCarthy inquisitions. But today’s rape culture movement bears some striking similarities to a panic that gripped daycare centers in the 1980s.
Lawyrthns' remarks echo that paronia/hysteria.
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Sinclair
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This is the perspective that I find most interesting.

Responding to a comment along the lines of "some men think men are owed sex," a user on Roosh V's forum had this to say:

quote:
Well, yes and no. A fundamental characteristic of any large-scale, prosperous society has been that men and women, as long as they remain within the law and customs of the society, can expect to find a mate. They'll be a few exceptions, sure, but just being average should pretty much guarantee not being alone or an outcast.

In modern, what I would call post-cultural, societies, we're all atomized individuals that don't owe one another anything. This is actually a very strange way to live, historically speaking, and almost certainly doesn't mesh very well with human psychology.

The results of this sort of thing are what Elliot recognized in the above chart he made and what Roosh and countless others have observed, as well. Namely, letting women do whatever they want -- ensconced in a legal, academic, and cultural bubble that protects them from both physical and social consequences -- results in run-away, every-increasing hypergamy.

Fewer and fewer men get the lion's share of the women. A huge, and growing, percentage of men are shut out of the game completely or close to it. Getting laid consistently will require ever more extreme and heroic efforts. Life will be amazing for the minority of alphas at the top but, by definition, few men will reach that level.

Giving women the sort of radical autonomy (only possible as long as we have an excess of wealth, high technology, can manage with sub-replacement birthrates, and the majority of men agree to pay and work to support it) is very much incompatible with sustainable civilization. Men won't continue to invest in society, such as:

-- pay taxes,
-- build businesses,
-- do all the dangerous jobs like military, firefighting, law enforcement
-- and all the dirty ones like plumber, construction, sanitation, oil extraction

unless they feel "entitled to women's bodies." This doesn't mean any woman's body at any time (no man thinks that, anyway) but it does mean that, unless men believe that all their hard work and risk-taking means a reasonable expectation of sex and love, you can't have a (good) society for very long.

When you remove the incentive for men to invest in society, they either leave, become depressed drop-out incels, become players, or otherwise find a way to live a life as detached as possible from society. They have little connection to any community, certainly won't protect it and, occasionally, one of the endless, faceless rejects like Elliot will take out his rage and frustration in a violent way.

Are these guys crazy and abnormal? Sure. But does this sort of society that intentionally removes a huge portion of young men from meaningful participation (and leaves them clueless about their role as men) absolutely guarantee that we will have a small but steady stream of them? YES.


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TomDavidson
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quote:
Men won't continue to invest in society...
unless they feel "entitled to women's bodies."

I submit that the sort of men who feel that way -- who are only motivated to good deeds by the promise of a woman as a trophy -- are the sort of men we don't want reproducing, because they will make terrible husbands and terrible parents and almost certainly produce terrible children.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Sinclair:
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
Hey everyone who is already having a discussion here:

Please put it on pause until our latest sockpuppet is removed, and don't even respond to it.

I don't know what you mean by "sockpuppet" or why you're calling for me to be "removed." I registered to share my opinions. It appears you already have in mind the the exact discussion you want to have and don't want to deal with anyone who challenges your perspective.
like the other times you feigned ignorance then later admitted that yeah you were that guy

blackblade: do we have an eta on his re-ban

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by narrativium:
Since pretty much all MRAssholes/PUAs/PUAhaters sound pretty much alike, I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that this one is Sa'eed.

yeah it is entirely remotely possible that he's an identically neurotic misogynistic poster and not him but who cares well is poisoned bam
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Dogbreath, I suspect Lyrhawn meant to suggest that in the eyes of some people, minorities have a very narrow range of (often demeaning when it is actually dug into) sexual power, not that it is the sort of authentic power that really translated much. Power is perhaps the wrong word, given those qualifiers.

I think power is the right word...but not the same kind of overt power that Dogbreath is talking about.

Taboo and mystique are powerful. Things that are forbidden are powerful. Rumor and innuendo are powerful. It's not the same kind of power as direct, overt control, but it's power nonetheless. Because it makes people curious about this thing they've heard about, curious enough to want to try or experiment with something they otherwise wouldn't have considered all that special, but this group is supposed to have heightened sexual prowess, so let's check it out for ourselves.

That's power. It's not control, but it's most certainly power. And yes, it comes from a bad place.

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Dogbreath
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Again, where exactly is the evidence of all this power?
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
Again, where exactly is the evidence of all this power?

Haven't you ever heard the one about how well endowed black men are, for example? I don't know if there have been any reliable studies on penis size across the board, much less for particular racial groups. Not quite sure how such a study would be done, though I suppose it's possible. Anyway, it's a stereotype I used to hear when I was younger, for example, before I came into the nerve to tell someone straight up when they were saying something that sounded racist.

Anyway, that's an example of a form of power...specialness?...not sure of a good word, that some people invest in minorities. Could you perhaps restate your position, Dogbreath? I'm not sure where the point of disagreement is, since to me the notion that a taboo can exert influence over a group of people is pretty straightforward.

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