Thankfully, over the years of being with my husband and through the support of many friends and colleagues in the gaming industry, I have managed to overcome a lot of that stigma when it comes to writing.

Coming here is a big step for me since it means I will be among those that are incredibly talented. My competiveness comes out and at the same time, often will shut down both. ie. Someone writes a great story, I start writing one and realize... ugh.. it stinks compared to theirs.

Now, I'm not really here to talk about my little insecurity, competitiveness and unrealized perfectionism but to spark up a bit of conversation.

How does everyone else feel about their level of competitiveness, and how does everyone feel about whether there is enough room in the literary realm to accomodate everyone? I don't mean everyone can become a great novelist, but at the same time, can everyone find their comfort zone either for pleasure or for profit? Again, being competitive and with a drive to tell a story, I want everyone to read and respond to what I say. Selfish, I know. But, it's the sin of showmanship and being the youngest of the family.

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...how does everyone feel about whether there is enough room in the literary realm to accommodate everyone?

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There isn't enough room to accommodate everyone, but there is room to accommodate the best. I'm convinced that every good writer will get published and make a fine living by writing. But it takes years of hard word to become a good writer, and that's where most people fail.

I believe what Stephen King says in his book, ON WRITING. We can divide writers into four categories: (1) bad writers; (2) competent writers; (3) good writers; (4) geniuses. And I agree that no matter what, a bad writer will never becomes a competent writer, and that a good writer will never become a genius. However, every competent writer can, with years of hard work, become a good writer. And like I said, every good writer can make a living by writing.

Of everyone on this board, maybe one will become a really good writer (that's gonna be me ), maybe two or three will become good enough craftsmen to succeed as average commercial writers, and maybe a few more will find intermittent success publishing short stories. And the reason why is because the vast majority of people on this board aren't as talented as they think they are, aren't writing as much as they need to, or will give up from frustration. This isn't a slam against anyone on this board, it's the truth. This same ratio can be applied to any writing internet forum or any creative writing class.

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I don't mean everyone can become a great novelist, but at the same time, can everyone find their comfort zone either for pleasure or for profit?

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Yes. Every writer can find their comfort zone for pleasure. If you enjoy writing and are actively writing, you're succeeding. And so long as everyone understands that there is only limited room in the publishing world, then everyone should also find their comfort zone for profit, which is $0.00.

In the final analysis, you write for one reason and one reason alone--because you enjoy it. And you strive to become a better writer for one reason and one reason alone--because the Art demands that you do. So long as you enjoy writing, are writing what you love, and are striving to become better at it, that's all that really matters.

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Coming here is a big step for me since it means I will be among those that are incredibly talented.

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I agree with Balthasar, most of aren't incredibly talented. We are a good community of people that have gathered together to support each other in our mutual interest, writing.

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Someone writes a great story, I start writing one and realize... ugh.. it stinks compared to theirs.

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Don't compare your writing to others, especially not the greats. We are the most critical of our own talents and work. Write and find a good writers group (like us here) and get your work critiqued.

Then I came across this article that said that all beginning writers should take a year to a year-and-a-half and write 50 short stories. Forget length (so long as they are short stories), forget genera, forget if they are merely fictionalized accounts of your childhood. Forget everything and just write. And don't bother too much about rewriting, either--since the bulk of learning how to write comes from writing itself and not rewriting, when you finish you 50 short stories you'll be a much better writer than when you started and thereby be in a much better position to reread your previous work.

I'm working on my fifth story now in two months, and I know I am getting better. I can feel it as I write. I'm beginning to see when the story is working and when it's not. I don't care about genera or length or publication. I'm writing about 1,000 words a day, with no more than 3 days off between stories, and I'm loving every minute of it.

So what I said at the end of my last post I learned first hand--in the final analysis, the only thing that matters is that you enjoy writing, that you write what you love, and that you strive to become a better writer each day.

Seems I've come to the right place. I have managed to find time as of two months ago to devote myself to writing very seriously (I now work part time and have about 20 hours a week to write or do writing tasks such as read books about writing and critique other's work.)

I, too, have been writing as long as I can remember (I think about 10) and am now close enough to 26.

Anyway, I am very hard on myself. I'm currently spending more of my time on a full length novel that has been with me, at least as a spark, since I was about 11. (It's grown since then, of course.) I keep banging my head against walls! Every time chapter 4 begins to shake I decide the whole thing has turned south and start over! Just since January I've stopped and started this novel over again 4 times!

In one section the income of a first book author was not what I would call a fine living. Most said around 7,000 US $ a year.

Is there room for everyone? No. And that's the trouble. It's hard for the good ones to get through the slush pile of awful.

As to if you will be among the great writers here--I am sure we all want to think so---but as I am fidning out--once you have an agent, and have "offical" rewrites to do, synops to rewrite or write to a certian publisher's specs---you do not have time for groups or BB's like this. There are simply not enough hours in the day.

I've continued to make time becasue one of the things I have always done as an editor is try to help those who have not learned as much along the way or are just starting out.

I'm the one just starting out now--trailing behind my agent hoping I don't look like too much of a fool.

I hope I can continue to come here.

Shawn

I've recently come off of writing news, interviews, editorial rants and a strategy guide over the past few years. None of which was all that creative.

I definetly need something like this to start flexing my writing muscles again and get them back in shape.

Thanks for the replies all. Good discussion.

[This message has been edited by Sachant (edited May 30, 2003).]

The only comment I would make is not to put a restriction on the length of your short stories. Keegan seems to think a short story is about 2,000 words.

According to the SF community, a short story is 7,500 words, a novelette is between 7,500-17,500, and a novella is between 17,500-40,000 words. But this is a bit arbitrary; I don't think any one else would recognize the "novelette" category. You also have short-short stories, usually under 2,000 words.

I've made my own arbitrary decision to say that a short story is up to 70 correctly formatted manuscript pages (i.e., one inch margins, courier font, font-size 12, double spaced), which is 17,500 words. Of course, the longer your short stories are, the more time it will take you before you hit 50.

Don't get me wrong; I DO love writing. I get a thrill everytime I put something on paper. Hell, looking at an empty piece of paper and a pen can get me excited. The only difference is, though, I'm pretty sure that if I knew for certain that NO ONE else in the entire world would ever read my writing -- I'd probably just stop. The stories are always spinning around in my head like some aristotelian rock-tumbler. Isn't that good enough? I mean, why do I need to write them down for myself?

I write for other people too. I enjoy other people reading my work. Perhaps it is the act of immortalizing myself, in a certain way, by writing my thoughts and ideas that appeals to me. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure that is what makes it so enjoyable for me -- the fact that someone will actually read this little portion of my brain. I mean, the sense of completion and fulfillment that I feel when I finish a story is only strong because that means I'm all that much closer to someone else reading it.

So, does that make me narcissistic? Commercial? Shallow?

I don't think so. As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing wrong with not just writing for yourself, but writing for other people as well as all the possibilities that that implies.

But--this fits so well.

Only amateurs say that they write for their own amusement. Writing is not an amusing occupation. It is a combination of ditch-digging, mountain-climbing, treadmill and childbirth... But amusing? Never.

Anonymous

I can also say that writing can be terribly grueling. I've been writing for others for years, but it's what THEY want from me and required of me.

The interesting thing about art is that it's intrinsic to art for it to be on display for others to experience. Thus, there is something in the artist that understands that completion only takes place when the work is on display for others to experience.

Now writing is a peculiar art form because it's the only art form that demands someone else's approval in order for the work to be shown to the world. If I paint or draw or sculpt, I can put my work on in my living room and whoever comes over to my house will see it, or I can find an amateur studio to display it, or I can donate it to the local YMCA. If I were a guitarist and songwriter, I could make good quality tapes in a very inexpensive home-studio and pass them out to my family and friends and possibly local radio stations that play local music. Of course, none of these suggestions would bring complete fulfillment to the artists, but they would bring some fulfillment.

The writer, however, must always send his work to another for her work to be seen by others. I suppose a writer can make copies of her work and pass it around, but it will always be a typed copy that looks like it came off a printer. This is not the case with the other arts, by the way. Once the painting or sculpture is complete, the artist can look at it; the work doesn't need to change mediums. Once the music is on tape, they musician can listen to it. But once the story is on paper, it still needs a transformation. It still needs to be put in the kind of font and typesetting we're used to seeing when we open a book or magazine. So I would suggest that there is something deep within the writer that compels the writer to send out his or her stuff for publication. And this isn't bad--it's the nature of writing.

However, I think we need to make a distinction between publication-as-display and publication-as-business. So long as we think of publication as the displaying of our work, then it's fine to want to be published. Hell, I want to be published!! But if we think of publication merely as a business, we're going down the wrong road. We'll end up being a hack. Of course, compromises will have to made in the publishing-as-business world. But when we write, we shouldn't be worried about that world. We should be worried about writing a good story that we can be proud of and that others will enjoy.

And I agree with Shawn--only amateurs say that they write for their own amusement. In fact, this isn't even writing--it's daydreaming on paper. This sentiment is what bad writers are made of.

One of the things I would love to do and plan to do is to write a book for my daughter Raven with her in it. Not one of those cheap pay for her name in a premade story things but something from the heart. She is my target audience and as long as she treasures it, I will feel fullfilled in that aspect.

Besides, we all know that most authors are hyper-critical of their own writing so most likely are never satisfied by their own works. To say they write for their own enjoyment when they can't enjoy their writing because they are critical of it is a bit of an oxymoron. Hopefully you do enjoy working on it. Hopefully it brings you happiness. But to say it's for sheer enjoyment may be stretching the truth a bit.

I write for my wife, because she likes to read what I write. I know her opinion is biased and she doesn't read the genre I write, but she enjoys it and that's enough for me.

I can say some things I writer are for my amusement. I made up a 12 step program to go with the diet I am on. I shared it with the others in my group. Pure fun, no pressure—it took all of 10 min and I didn’t even proof read. But would I find it amusing if no one “got it”’ if no one laughed? Most likely not.

I do invitations, news letters, articles, anything written down---Solutions Inc. is what it says when my answering machine picks up---Written Solutions. To just about anything.

And I do novel writing.

So why?

It does, I think, boil down to so someone can read it—my goal is to make someone feel. Sad, happy, angry, pleased, proud—it doesn’t matter—so long as they feel.

Story tellers have been around since man walked upright—I am sure of this---maybe even before.

And what good is a story if it has no audience—even an audience of one is still an audience.

Of course!

The hard lesson is that good and bad are never absolutes, and sometimes it's unbelievable that anyone considers the good stuff to be good. And yet it is, at least for a while.

If our culture makes room for Survivor and Jackass and Jerry Springer, yet no publiusher will touch your brilliant masterpiece, should you be discouraged? Of course not. No one wants to be compared to Jackass anyway.

>>>>>Shawn, there is a quote by the author of BASTARD OUT OF CAROLINA(forget her name who said:

I actually spend about as much time with my head in the clouds, dreaming up far fetched adventures (usually with myself as the heroine) as I do writing them down.

I dream for my own amusements. I write to make a lasting record or myself (in a way). I try to write *well* because some of my dreams involve other people enjoying my work too.

In other words I think anyone who is passionate enough has the potential to be a very good writer, but without the passion they won't allow themselves the time it takes.