Hatrack River Writers Workshop   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Writers Workshop » Forums » Open Discussions About Writing » I hate it when . . .

   
Author Topic: I hate it when . . .
Zixx
Member
Member # 1798

 - posted      Profile for Zixx   Email Zixx         Edit/Delete Post 

. . . You read in a book that some woman was "the most beautiful woman he had ever seen." And I don't care what his or her description of said woman is. Please don't make it worse by saying something to the effect that "not only did all men's heads turn to look at her, but those of the women too."

/gag

. . . The writer describes the man as having "chiseled features." Jawline or whatever. For some reason, when I think of chiseled, I think of a piece of wood that looks like a beaver has been gnawing at it. But I'm sure it wouldn't read well if "Duke Stone had a well sanded chin, both baby butt smooth and hard like a rock."

. . . Only one man (or woman) can stop the evil plot or find the cure or save mankind. I mean, is there really that much difference between Indiana Jones and MacGuyver, or Sylvester and Arnold? And yes, I can't remember how Richard Dean Anderson's character is spelled(if I spelled it wrong).

. . . A writer uses a really, really bad metaphor or analogy. "The words echoed in his head like a bad nursery rhyme." This in a fantasy book? Exactly which nursery rhyme is bad?

. . . The writer tells you everything the character knows. Sure, this is useful at times, but in moderation, I think. "Bob knew from his years of experience and training in martial arts that by the way the man stood, he would be leading with his left foot and then striking from his right hand, which he could easily evade out of and then throw a single punch to the man's throat etc etc." Funny, you didn't mention that he knows self defense earlier in the book . . . /yawn

Any others that really irk you too?


Posts: 24 | Registered: Oct 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Lord Darkstorm
Member
Member # 1610

 - posted      Profile for Lord Darkstorm   Email Lord Darkstorm         Edit/Delete Post 
I think my biggest problem is the misunderstanding people have of creating a hook at the beginning. There is an assumption that you must have super excitement in the first line. But then they try and follow it up with paragraphs of background.

I also think that people should only use a flashback when necessary. Starting a story to get into the action, then you have pages of fill in to get to the point you started at. I made an attempt at something similar to that once, but I was lucky and someone asked me why I didn't start at beginning. I went back and started at the beginning (what should have been the beginning to start with) and it worked much better.

I guess the biggest thing that annoys me is the lack of a definite point of view. I know that some people get away with several paragraphs in a novel that is purely an explanation, but why should it be necessary.

Those are a few of my little aggravations.


Posts: 807 | Registered: Mar 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
EricJamesStone
Member
Member # 1681

 - posted      Profile for EricJamesStone   Email EricJamesStone         Edit/Delete Post 
I was just thinking about this this morning:

My friends are in danger. Every second of delay reduces my chances of saving them from death. BUT, I must pause to inform the villain dramatically that, if my friends die, I'll make sure he pays for it.

Similarly:

I must remain behind while sending my loved ones out of danger. Every second of delay increases the danger that they'll be caught by whatever evil is coming. BUT I need to take time to poignantly hug them and tearfully promise I'll find them later.


Posts: 1517 | Registered: Jul 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
James Maxey
Member
Member # 1335

 - posted      Profile for James Maxey   Email James Maxey         Edit/Delete Post 
>>. . . Only one man (or woman) can stop the evil plot or find the cure or save mankind. I mean, is there really that much difference between Indiana Jones and MacGuyver, or Sylvester and Arnold? And yes, I can't remember how Richard Dean Anderson's character is spelled(if I spelled it wrong).<<

You know, I'm a little confused by this one. Is your objection that only ONE man can stop things, with no team or back-up? This is rarer than it may seem. Even James Bond usually has some CIA babe working with him, and the army is likely to show up in the nick of time with a final assault on the bad guy's stronghold.

Luke Skywalker has a whole rebel army backing him up, but it still comes down to him acting alone to destroy the deathstar. Frodo starts out with a band of heroes, but in the end it's him and Sam who have to climb the volcano. Batman has Robin, Robind Hood has Merry Men, the Lone Ranger has Tonto, Spiderman has . . . uh, okay, I don't think he has anyone.

Or is your objection that you would prefer fictional problems that require complex, multi-pronged avenues of attack? Obviously, in the real world, big problems are almost never solved by one person working on one small aspect of a problems, and the problems usually aren't solved, they simply morph from acute problems into chronic problems. The war in a Iraq was obviously won by any historical standards of victory, but it wasn't won by a single person, and victory has brought on a whole new set of problems, i.e. we have to build a new government that will be strong enough to hold the country together but not so strong it becomes just another dictatorship. One wonders what happened to all the Orcs and bad guys in LOTR after Sauron fell. Did the good guys have to worry about establishing a healthy economy and self government for the orcs? And if they didn't, how good were they?

In any case, while I can thing of dozens of novels where one man doesn't save the world (usually because the world isn't in danger in the course of the novel) I'm having a hard time thinking of a novel where the world is in danger and one man (or a small group of men) doesn't wind up saving the whole shebang.

Thanks for giving my such a thought provoking problem, by the way. This is really getting my creative juices flowing.

--James Maxey


Posts: 252 | Registered: Dec 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
Zixx
Member
Member # 1798

 - posted      Profile for Zixx   Email Zixx         Edit/Delete Post 
hrmm, I should have explained better about the 'one man' thing. While the majority of stories and movies is, and rightfully so, seen through the eyes of one man or woman, my objection wasn't stated clearly. This tends to happen at 3AM and I start rambling about something. . .

What I should have mentioned was the blurbs on the backs of books or the raspy voice on the movie trailers telling you that "Only one man can stop the blah blah" or "Only one man can find the killer, his name is [insert tough sounding guy's name here] when in reality, a large number of people could do the same thing. I'm glad the story or movie is from a main character's perspective, but that cliche line on the back of the book just annoys the hell outta me.

I probably should have just said that the 'one man' line on the backs of books or in movie trailers sounds rediculous to me since everyone knows that the movie or book IS going to be about that man, doing whatever to save the girl, stop the bomb, find the killer, etc. And it's worse when 'only' is added, as in "Only one man can stop the [insert crisis here]" My feeble point was that it is a rare occasion when only one person out of six billion can do something that no other of the six billion minus one can not do.

Using the LotR as an example, if I remember correctly, the trailer used the voice saying that the "future lies in the hands of one hobbit" or something close to that. Quoting Gandalf, I think. Sounds suspenseful and NOT cliche! Wouldn't it have sounded odd if "only one hobbit can save their world?" I mean, I'd think there were a lot of hobbitses (sorry, couldn't resist) around so that perhaps there might have been another or two who could have done what Frodo did? Sam perhaps? Not trying to undermine anything about LotR, just using that as an example to hopefully show the difference.

Z


Posts: 24 | Registered: Oct 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Kolona
Member
Member # 1438

 - posted      Profile for Kolona   Email Kolona         Edit/Delete Post 
How many people would be drawn to read a book touted as "The Committee that Saved the World"?

No matter if the ultimate "one person" could have been anyone -- isn't that the point? It still needed to be someone. Someone mattered. Whether it was Frodo or Sam, some one had to drop that ring into the fire. Sure he would have the support of the Fellowship, and Gandalf's interventions, and the diversionary battle, but all that would be for naught if some one didn't carry through to the end in spite of great odds and inconvenience -- and the greater the odds and inconvenience, the greater the hero.

To say otherwise denies heroism.

Anyone can throw themselves onto a grenade, but the one who does it is the hero.

But he must purposely act. Had Gollum remained in control of the ring and somehow stumbled into the fire, he wouldn't have been the hero Frodo was. A deserter running from battle stumbling and falling onto a grenade isn't a hero.

Book jacket hype notwithstanding, true heroism occurs when one individual breaks from the committee to do the job.


Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jun 2002  | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 1646

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post 
Zixx, I think I understand what you're saying. I'm not sure how much it really annoys me personally, but it is definitely cheesy. I think what you're getting into is the prohphecy-like (or somethines actual prophecy) predictions that, in a time of darkness, only John Smith can save the world. If he denies the challenge, or is killed, or turns to evil, the world is lost. The truth is, if John Smith can't do it, then Mike Wilson will give it a try, or even Jane Doe (although it's uaully not a girl <sigh> ). Any one or all three could have succeeded or failed. Yeah, some combat training might make John Smith special, but lots of people have combat training, lots of people think quickly on their feet.

I guess the point is that a story follows a hero who succeeds, we accept that. If it follows a guy who ends up dying then we wouldn't get to hear the rest of the story because our narrator would be dead. THAT is why we follow the particular hero we do, not becuase of the cheesy suspense of If this one guy can't do it no one can. I'm not saying he's not really cool for succeeding and worthy of special praise, but that's not really why we follow him.

Has any other writer out there ever given serious thought to trying to follow a character who fails? I actually have, although I have finally dismissed this as a flawed idea. The truth is that while soldier #325 in LOTR who fell in battle was just as heroic as our lucky hobits who survived, if we told his story the story would end before it was really over. Soldier #325 did not have perspective to see the entire story.


Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Zixx
Member
Member # 1798

 - posted      Profile for Zixx   Email Zixx         Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Christine, you said it perfectly!

And you are right, we DO accept that John Smith is going to win in the end, but I think we can live without the cheesy hype that fails--for me at least--to be a hook. I think we all take it for granted that Hero A will succeed and meet up with Love Interest X along the way.

Just tell us what the story is about without the cheesy hype )


Posts: 24 | Registered: Oct 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Survivor
Member
Member # 213

 - posted      Profile for Survivor   Email Survivor         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I was there the day the strength of men failed...Isildur took the ring.

It is particularly true that where one person fails, another may succeed...but nothing about the failure of the first necessitates the success of another.

But I think that I know what you mean. Telling the reader that only this particular individual or that one can save the world or whatever is poor literature, though it might be very good as a motivation for the protagonist. Frodo is kept going by the thought that he, and he alone, can destroy the ring. In the end of course, we see that it isn't true. Frodo doesn't destroy the ring...he can't...never would have been able to do it in any case. At the moment when he most truly hates the ring, and has seen unmasked all the evil that it is and will cause, it is at that moment, with the fire at hand, that he finally admits to himself that he can't really do it.

But being told that he was the only one who could, even though it turns out that he really couldn't, is what got him there. And the ring is destroyed in the end..."by the most unlikely person imaginable", in the words of the narrator.

Of course, The Lord of the Rings is something of an ambiguous tale in many ways. I don't know that we mere mortal can aspire... ... . Okay, I'm finished.


Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999  | Report this post to a Moderator
Nick Vend
Member
Member # 1816

 - posted      Profile for Nick Vend   Email Nick Vend         Edit/Delete Post 
Actually, I'd love to read something entitled, 'The Committee that Saved the World.' It sounds like it would be HILARIOUS!
Posts: 64 | Registered: Dec 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Kolona
Member
Member # 1438

 - posted      Profile for Kolona   Email Kolona         Edit/Delete Post 
For a comedy, so would I, actually.
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jun 2002  | Report this post to a Moderator
loggrad98
Member
Member # 1724

 - posted      Profile for loggrad98   Email loggrad98         Edit/Delete Post 
Just finished Grisham's "King of Torts" and it is about a character who ultimately fails. I found it very refreshing to see Grisham drop his normal pattern of simple inexperienced lawyer singlehandedly defeats the FBI, the mafia, big corporation and any number of other government or bad-guy organizations and retires to the Cayman islands with millions of dollars worth of money extorted from the US Government and/or the bad guys. In this book he actually has a real character who finds out that what appears too good to be true usually is. It was a book about someone who fails in the end, and it was a very good read as well. So it can be done.
Posts: 45 | Registered: Aug 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
kwsni
Member
Member # 970

 - posted      Profile for kwsni   Email kwsni         Edit/Delete Post 
Isn't King's The Dead Zone about a hero who fails?

Ni!


Posts: 177 | Registered: Mar 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
EricJamesStone
Member
Member # 1681

 - posted      Profile for EricJamesStone   Email EricJamesStone         Edit/Delete Post 
OK, how about some spoiler warnings before mentioning books in which the hero ultimately fails?
Posts: 1517 | Registered: Jul 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
cicero
Member
Member # 1602

 - posted      Profile for cicero           Edit/Delete Post 
How many people would be drawn to read a book touted as "The Committee that Saved the World"?

I actually know someone who is writing a book consisting of just that; a committee sitting in a room, saving the world.


Posts: 26 | Registered: Feb 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 1646

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post 
I'd give it a shot. Of course, I would expect a satire and if it didn't make me laugh I'd robably put it down,m but I'd definitely pick it up in the first place.
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Balthasar
Member
Member # 5399

 - posted      Profile for Balthasar   Email Balthasar         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Isn't King's The Dead Zone about a hero who fails?

No, it's about a hero who succeeds but who dies in the process.


Posts: 130 | Registered: Apr 2007  | Report this post to a Moderator
cvgurau
Member
Member # 1345

 - posted      Profile for cvgurau   Email cvgurau         Edit/Delete Post 
Wow. Talk about a spoiler.

And yeah, it sucked that he died.


Posts: 552 | Registered: Jan 2002  | Report this post to a Moderator
PE_Sharp
Member
Member # 1654

 - posted      Profile for PE_Sharp   Email PE_Sharp         Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know that "The Committee that Saved the World" would have to be a satire. I could see something like the movie nine angry men working. Though I would say that if I wrote it, I would want for it to have a sence of humor, more so than nine angry men did.


Posts: 47 | Registered: Jun 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
yanos
Member
Member # 1831

 - posted      Profile for yanos   Email yanos         Edit/Delete Post 
You mean like a League of Gentleman... eek ...did I actually say that???

~runs away screaming manically~


Posts: 575 | Registered: Dec 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Nick Vend
Member
Member # 1816

 - posted      Profile for Nick Vend   Email Nick Vend         Edit/Delete Post 
Due to the nature of committees and bureaucracy in general, I think a book title promising a committee doing ANYTHING, let alone something as ambitious as saving the world promises satire.
Posts: 64 | Registered: Dec 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 1646

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post 
Didn't Monty Ptyhon make fun of a committe tring to oust the Romans in "The Life of Brian?"
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Jules
Member
Member # 1658

 - posted      Profile for Jules   Email Jules         Edit/Delete Post 
Ah, you mean the Popular People's Front of Judea, which couldn't even agree as to what its own name was... that was a classic scene :-)
Posts: 626 | Registered: Jun 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2