I’m finding the format rather hard to deal with. One, you can never examine a story as a whole, because it is fragmented over several weeks, which makes it really hard to tell about consistency of voice and plot logic since you may not remember last week very well (Its even worse with the novels – what can you really say about chapter 28 when you have no idea what happened in chapters 1-27). Two, reader talent starts factoring in on how entertained you were by the story, which has little to do with the writing. Three, you have very little time to absorb what you read/heard, which makes it hard to offer specific feedback. In fact, some people don’t get very much feedback, and almost no comments are actually written on the handouts, which is part of what they are there for. And Four, its hard to tell how many people feel the same way about a particular issue, since usually only one person will comment on it, and you may or may not get nods from the others.

Somehow, I think reading things to yourself slowly, and writing out your comments, even if they will be discussed verbally later, is really more the way to go.

It makes me realize what really great feedback I’ve gotten on things I’ve had critiqued through Hatrack. Most responses have been detailed, thought out, and politely, but honestly brutal when needed, which is also much easier to deal with when you aren’t staring the person in the eye as they clutch their baby to their chest and argue back about how they disagree with your opinion. You can slowly absorb what people have written back to you, and compare differing opinions at leisure. And it is also a community that is biased towards understanding the particular needs of speculative fiction.

Depends on who you end up with. Sometime, immediate criticism can be excellent, but onlyfrom a person who's been doing it for a long time, like a teacher.

At this stage in my education as a writer, I see no reason to find a live group; my ego's essentially healthy, and I don't need face to face positive feedback. Besides, when I do need that kind of thing, I can e-mail my stuff to mom.

The only "in person" feedback I've gotten has been from my husband and my father, and at least then I'm not dealing with the group issues you've mentioned. But there is something to be said for reading a critique and being able to yell irrationally for a bit without offending your critiquer. I was afraid for a while that my father had stopped giving me honest feedback because my voice wuold get kinda sulky over the phone when he told me what was wrong. My husband doesn't care if I get sulky, but he's a bit of an oddball...the type that's not afraid to say, "Yes, you do look fat in that dress!"

Some tips:

1. Someone other than the writer should read the piece aloud. This is good for a couple of reasons. Difficulties the reader will have with names, for instance, become readily apparent. And it gives the writer a chance to hear what it sounds like, which is different from the effect of reading ones own work aloud.

2. Learn from the discussion of other people's manuscripts. Seeing the mistakes others have made helps you avoid them.

3. Don't ever bring the same piece to writers group, even if you have totally re-written it. Not only is it boring, but some people might be offended that you didn't take their suggestions.

4. Even if you get nothing more out of it, having a weekly group to which you are expected to bring something may be worthwhile just in forcing you to write.

I'm in a group with a romance writer, a YA writer, a children's author, and a playwright. I get a lot of very different perspectives that I wouldn't get with a group that focused on SF&F. It helps me to write SF that isn't completely inaccessible to people unfamiliar with the genre. It also helps me broaden my writing horizons; I have a romantic subplot in my fantasy novel that I feel more confident about writing, thanks to discussions in my writers group regarding the romance author's writing.

I think Christine is right - the format needs to be changed. Writer's Digest suggested this site http://www.6ftferrets.com/ because it was designed to help you start a group, or help you with a group. You may want to check it out.

It's best when live groups are small; I think 5-6 members is more than enough in order for each writer to get a decent round and keep the time element in check. In our case, we brought copies of our work for all the members and followed as the writer read, marking as we went and commenting afterward. We got along well and I think managed a non-offensive honesty.

I do like being around the other writers, and hearing their different views, which as Eric pointed out, can be good if they don’t focus on speculative fiction. They are just nice people too. But I think I feel that "nice" factor that punahougirl84 is talking about. I know I’m doing it, and I know that’s no way to really get a lot out of a crit group.

And its funny, I feel like I’ve learn a lot by doing stints in the Fragments and Feedback section. (I do wish I could hear what other people said, after I’ve put down my thoughts). But I just feel sort of numb when I leave the live group. And brain dead. Maybe I just don’t think too good by the time 10 pm. comes around after starting my day at 5 am.

Enough semi-whining on my part… It’s not like people are hog-tying me and dragging me bodily off to this. Time to consider a plan B, or something like that.

Was once part of a face-to-face writing group. It started out like yours - everyone reading through pages and pages. Ouch! Then one person (the most published) scratched that idea, and from then on we really started to "click."

We met once per week, but the Wed. *before* the meeting anyone who wanted feedback had to distribute what they wanted critiqued. They also had to state what, specifically, they were looking for. Sometimes a person just wanted "general" feedback, other times it was more specific, say, timing of a scene, cadence of the words, or character building/progression.

The night of the meeting, we set a timer, giving us 10 minutes to discuss each submission. (Sometimes a submisson was so intriguing, or the problems/whatever of it the same, that we'd vote to go over the time limit.)

This worked really well. From that group, one person sold a hardcover children's book, another a suspense novel, and two others romance novels.

Yes, we had some members who filtered in now and then and who didn't want any criticism (they argued every point), but giving them only 10 minutes was the trick.

What I learned from the experience is that a good leader is needed - one who can shut down the grumblers, and can keep everyone on task.

Also, only one of the others ever worked in SF, the rest were split fairly evenly between detective fiction, romance and non-fiction (primarily memoirs).