posted
I saw the "suggested reading" thread and wanted to add this to the discussion, but felt it really needed a separate thread.
I was just interested in getting people's vote on which novel, short story or even movie that best represents each of the MICE categories, as OSC defines them.
FYI - For those who haven't read OSC's - How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy, I summarized what each category is.
What is your vote for best?
Milieu story (Story that concerns itself with moving characters through a specific world)
Idea story (Story that concerns itself with answering a specific question, premise, idea)
Character story (Story that concerns itself with the changes in a character's character)
Event story (Story that concerns itself with a specific event that has thrown the world\universe into confusion, and its resolution.)
posted
Mysteries are a classic sort of example of an idea story. The whole story arc is driven by the Whodonit question. Also, some hard scifi follows an arc where the driving force is on exploring a scientific "What If?"
[This message has been edited by GZ (edited August 17, 2004).]
posted
I think that once you say that one story "best represents" each MICE category you kind of miss out on the point of the MICE quotient.
After all, a really good Milieu story shows you an integrated, fully realized milieu. By its very nature, it will only show one sort of milieu. The same is true of an Event story. Because most good stories will feature multiple characters and ideas, we might feel that a really great Character or Idea story could really be the single best...but that simply isn't the case. Othello (along with most of Shakespeare's plays) is a really great character story. But there are character dimensions and types that simply aren't fully developed in Othello when you compare it with some other works. The same turns out to be even more true of Idea stories, because for each idea that a story could express, there is at least one opposite idea that cannot be expressed in the same story.
A single Milieu story, no matter how good, isn't going to be "representative" even of all Milieu stories with similar milieu. The Lord of the Rings defines the Tolkienesque milieu, but it isn't a very good representative of the various milieux of the older stories that inspired it, even though it is a deliberate synthesis of them. It can't represent SF milieux like Metropolis and 2001 at all, and it would entirely miss contemporary Milieu stories, among others.
I suppose that there are Character stories that we could feel do a good job of representing all Character stories, but that would be a mistake. There are many fundamentally different types of Character stories that can be told using even the same set of characters. For one thing, a story could emphasize the strangeness of the characters, or their ordinary qualities. We could be encouraged to see ourselves or others. The story could show that people are basically the same or it could prove that there are fundamental differences that go all the way to the core of our beings. There are even stories that encourage two opposite views of characters and those that encourage a singular view of each character. And this list isn't a "representative" sample of possible types of Character story, it is simply illustrating that no single story is going to represent all these different types.
For Idea stories, we have a special problem because usually an Idea story is about a new idea, or at least a new slant on an old idea. Practically the moment a story is written, it is automatically disqualified from being the best representative of the class.
And Event stories have their own special difficulties of scale. Choosing one Event story as the representative utterly abolishes most Event stories that don't share the same scale. Events can be good or bad, big or small, gradual or sudden...the defining event of an Event story can happen at nearly any point in the dramatic economy of the story.
And besides, the point of the MICE quotient isn't to analyze some other writer's stories anyway. It's to see what the central element of your own story is so that you can write it better.
posted
I'd still suggest, THE DEATH GATE CYCLE series by Weiss and Hickman. It has elements of each type throughout the seven book series. So it has something for everyone. Maybe that's cheating. *shrug* Oh well.
[This message has been edited by TruHero (edited August 17, 2004).]
posted
I agree with Survivor about the whole idea of "best." In fact, I've long wished that the WorldCon would change their rules so that they didn't have to award ONE of each category every year. Maybe some years there would be 2 or 3 Hugo-winning novels, some other years there wouldn't be any. Just depends on how many people vote for "no award."
That being said, I'd like to mention one "Idea" story--not because it "best represents" the category, but because it is a really good example, especially for people who aren't quite sure what an idea story could be besides "mystery." It's Asimov's "The Last Question." It was his own personal favorite story, and the only one he knew of that was ever read as a sermon (in a Unitarian Church). It's also the one that he got the most questions about: People would write in asking, "What was the story about . . . ? I can't remember the title." Nobody could remember the title. Maybe that means it was a bad title, but Asimov speculated that the story made enough people uncomfortable that they repressed it.
It didn't make me uncomfortable. But then I don't have trouble remembering the title. Anyway, anyone who hasn't read it should do so before going to bed tonight! It can be found in the collection Nine Tomorrows.
[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited August 17, 2004).]
posted
Asmiov did write a lot of brilliant idea stories. I'm torn between all of them! The Last Question and Nightfall (both of which are also in The Complete Asimov Short Stories Vol. 3, IIRC) are both brilliant. But I'm not sure that The Machine That Won The War wasn't "better" (for some value of better). Or perhaps Pate De Foie Gras.
Milieu stories, I'm surprised that everyone so far has missed 1984. Almost certainly the most influential milieu ever described in a novel.
Event: I'm thinking of Niven/Pournelle's "The Mote in God's Eye", but I'm not certain that it is an event story. It may be a character story, with the character in question being the Moties...?! I think I'll just leave it in both categories.
[This message has been edited by Jules (edited August 18, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Jules (edited August 18, 2004).]
posted
I agree, most stories do involve a blend of all of the components\catagories of MICE.
I was really trying to see if anyone would come up with a good example for each component that would help me explain it to someone else. Looking for some additional examples I could point to and say that a certain area was represented well in that story, novel or movie. Interesting feedback though.
Idea: One of the best examples of the idea story is nearly any one of Micheal Crichton's novels. Jurassic Park, Timeline, etc.
Character story: Victor Hugo, Les Miserables
Event story: Dave Barry, Big Trouble
Each of these types of stories has its own purpose, I guess. Event stories and Milieu stories are the most generally entertaining, event being primarily entertainment and milieu escapist.
An idea story is intriguing and thought provoking. I think these kind of tales stick with us a little longer, they stimulate the imagination.
And then character stories. You asked which we thought were the best? Character stories may not always be the most entertaining, but they stick with you like no other tales can. When you can identify with a character and really relate with them, a novel can change fundamental truths about ourselves. I was never the same after reading Les Mis, the Count of Monte Cristo, or David Copperfield.
posted
I think there are very few good stories that aren't character stories. But many of the best fit into the other categories too. Posts: 626 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Okay, if you want to explain MICE by example:
milieu--character explores a strange place and either finds a way home or goes native (examples: DANCES WITH WOLVES, LAST SAMURAI, WIZARD OF OZ, CROCODILE DUNDEE, any "fish out of water" story)
idea--character has a puzzle to solve or an idea to explore (examples: murder mysteries, Twilight Zone stories; SF example--figuring out what's going on with a planet--are there sentient natives? GRASS by Sheri Tepper, REMNANT POPULATION by Elizabeth Moon)
character--character either struggles toward a preferred role or is forced into an unwanted role and has to deal with it(examples of the latter: MATRIX, SPIDERMAN, BOURNE IDENTITY, THE FUGITIVE)
event--world is out of balance and character(s) has/have to do something about it (examples: LORD OF THE RINGS, INDEPENDENCE DAY, any disaster movie, MATRIX works here, too--in fact, MATRIX could work in all four)
Sometimes it's easier to explain something if you pick movies instead of books. I hope this helps, anyway.
Anyway, I'd second the point that most really good stories have high marks for more than just one of the MICE elements. Which is one reason that it is difficult to study MICE from examples of really good stories.
Another reason is that a story that has a great milieu but centers the story on something else like an event is of the second type rather than the first. Think for a moment of what it would be like if The Wizard of Oz were to end when Dorthy killed the WWW, and then rode off into the sunset looking for a way home. There are plenty of stories like this, that take place in a fantastic milieu but aren't structured as Milieu stories.
The same is true of Idea stories, just about any story needs an idea or two. Some stories explore really great ideas but aren't structured to end once the idea is revealed. Characters and events are just the same.
As I see it, a story's MICE quotient is something that the creator decides, not the audience. Examples run more like this: I was thinking of a Milieu story, and became interested in one of the characters, then tied that character back to an idea, then started on an Event story to put him in position for the Milieu story later. Names ommited to protect the guilty (meaning me).
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