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Author Topic: Co-authorship
tchernabyelo
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I've been thinking about this for a while.

Writing (and particularly writing a novel) requires, ultimately, a range of skills, not all of which may come naturally to an aspiring writer. There is world-building; there is plotting; there is the creation of believable and interesting characters; there is the writing of dialogue, of action scenes, of atmospheric descriptive passages.

I believe I do some of these things well. I believe I do others rather poorly, and although I'd like to learn, there are times when I think I should play to my strengths more than try and eliminate my weaknesses.

That would mean working with someone else, who had a similar enough vision that our creative ideas didn't clash, and whose strengths would cover my weaknesses (and vice versa).

There are few successful collaborations apparently on the market, though they do occur, but of course it is entirely possible that co-authors use an individual pseudonym and so the practice of co-writing may be more common than it otherwise appears.

I'd be interested to know if other people have considered this. Because writing is a very creative, and very individual, process, I can see that people might shun the idea; the dilution of one's hard-worked creation may be anathema (although any writer who works in TV or film, for example, has to accept that their intiial vision will be changed, usually almost beyond recognition, before it reaches the world). So, could you do it? Would you do it? What do you think are the advantages and disadvantages?


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Silver3
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I'm not sure I would do it. As you said, a writer's main characteristic is his vision, and the fact that what he writes is personal.
The advantages of co-writing? I think you have already mentioned them. Two heads can have more ideas than one, and you can also benefit from sharing ideas with a fellow writer, to see what's implausible, etc.
The disadvantage is that, well, there's two of you. That means bruised egoes if you have conflicting ideas about the same thing, problems of coordination and of reunion (who writes what, but also how do we put the pieces together at the end)?
As to practical details, I'll give the example of "The Fall of the Kings", a book written by Ellen Kusher and Delia Sherman. I had the luck to talk with both of them at WorldCon, and from what I got here is how they worked (I haven't read the book so I'm repeating by rote).
There were two areas: the university, and the rest (the city). Ms Sherman dealt with everything concerning the university, Ms Kushner with the city. Within their universes, they made their own plot decisions, and had their own characters. A character from one area could appear in another, but the author in charge of that area was sole judge of what was plausible or not in the character's behaviour. It was not said, but I suppose that afterwards they checked for plot coherence and that sort of things.

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Christine
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I thought of it a long time ago when I was new, struggling, and still had some major gaps in my skill set. I have since come to the conclusion that it's easier to study, practice, and gain those skills than it is to collaborate. In boot camp, Orscon Scott Card said that writing with someone else was twice as much work, rather than half. I can see what he means.

You see, you won't have the same vision. You won't have the same style. You ahve to merge these things together smoothly and seemlessly.

Of course it can be done. I've read books by multiple authors that were well done and I'm sure there are some good points. But I would suggest this much: Don't do it to fill in your missing skill set with someone else's. Become a good writer in your own right, and then if you want to tackle a project with someone else see about finding someone you can work with.


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Rahl22
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Not only is it twice the work, it's half the money.

But then, having a partner to work on a project with can keep you motivated when you otherwise might not be.

Your call.


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JmariC
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I would do a collaboration for a humor piece.

The reason being that (according to some of my favorite authors) it's easier to write something that is funny if you have someone to bounce the jokes off of. Also, the back and forth of the novel work can lead to an escalation of humor, giving opportunity to even funnier jokes as each one tries to take a joke higher.
Also it provides a chance to learn what joke is not working before the work is submitted.

Outside of that, I don't want to do a two author work until I know I am good enough to get published on my own.


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Beth
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A few months ago, someone started hanging out here, proposing some kind of open-source novel-writing scheme. Someone would post part of the story, someone else who had stronger skills in that area could rewrite it. Eventually some kind of committee would make final decisions about which scenes went into the final novel. By drawing on the strengths of many people, the theory went, the resulting product would be the strongest one possible, and we're all idiots for trying to write our *own* novels all by ourselves.

If you're interested in that approach I could probably dig up a link for you.


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tchernabyelo
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I'd love to build the full skill-set. But I've been writing "seriously" for 15 years now, and I'm still well short in certain areas. While I'm hoping things like this group, and Liberty Hall, and so forth might help me in those areas, I did wonder... are there people out there (for example) who can write ideas and plots and story structures with ease and flair, but don't actually like writing the physical stories themselves? There are media where writing is not a one-person job. Comic books not infrequently have one person plot and another script. Many (most?) TV shows are either written directly by a team of writers, or by individual writers per episode working from an over-arching sequence and "bible" created by someone else.

But I don't know if I could do it. Yes, someone could write me a plot, but I might veer from it, or I might write dialogue for the characters that the plotter thought was terrible. There might be huge arguments, unless boundaries were very clearly defined.

However, I think an "open-source", "collaborative" novel would fall into the "an elephant is a mouse designed by a committee" syndrome. Definitely going to an absurd extreme.


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Beth
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most TV shows: complete crap. perhaps not the best argument in favor of group writing efforts.
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Warbric
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The fictional world I used for last NaNo began as a collaboration with a friend, though I tweaked it a bit over the years. The Army kept the two of us separated until he recently retired and settled in the same area as I did when I retired, so we're picking it back up and trying to run with it.

He's strong on ideas, but I write less sucky (mutual agreement being the only yardstick here), so we hash out the ideas, agree to a plan, and then I write. We had to sit down and define in detail the individual roles, responsibilities, and where each has the final say on what.

So far, so good. We haven't gotten into any knock-down-drag-outs over anything yet, but there are frustrations and compromises have to be made, so we shall see in due course.


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ChrisOwens
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As a reader, I'm less likely to pick up a novel that has two names on it.

I'm very skeptical where one is a famous writer and another not-so-famous. The Rendezvous with Rama series is my expection, Clarke and Gentry Lee did a pretty good collabration. But, it's rare, very rare, usually I wonder who did what, and so on, if the more famous writer was just there to lend thier name. I don't like being played like that.

As far as writing, it's definitly not for everybody. I guess it would depend on the motive of writing. Personally, I write as a creative outlet, to put my imagination to some use, and hope to improve enough to share this with others. Yeah, the words sometimes (only sometimes?) do get in the way of the story, but I do want the feeling of having completed something myself. That's a good feeling.

[This message has been edited by ChrisOwens (edited October 12, 2005).]


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Elan
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My experience might be of interest to you. I am currently writing a collaborative novel. So far, it's been great, but I think there have to be some agreements about how the process happens.

First of all, my co-author, Micha, and I have been writing together since 1998. We started out playing online "Play By Email" role-playing games in the Star Trek universe. We have gotten to know each other well during the years. While we initially got to know each other online, she and her husband moved to my state and lived here for a few months, so we got to know each other face-to-face during that time.

Our current WIP is based on an original alternate-world fantasy PBEM RPG that we developed. I LOVE the interactivity of a PBEM RPG, and didn’t want to give that up. Writing seemed like such a solitary thing to me. I love having someone to bounce ideas off, someone to help me brainstorm my way past the sticky spots. Micha has created the character of one of the story's three primary protagonists. She has developed the backstory for a section of the country we are in, and created the portion of the magic that pertains to her favorite topic of healing.

Our long friendship has allowed us to have faith in each other when it comes to writing. We have learned to marry our writing together in a way that is, I believe, seamless. She has her quirks, I have mine. There are very few points that have become battle ground issues between us, and we have learned to be flexible with each other, and to be willing to make changes. Overall, between us, it’s worked quite well. But I cannot think of another single person I could do this sort of thing with as easily.

We agreed, since I’m better at the mechanics of writing (she’s dyslexic), and since I was the one with the burning drive to craft our game into a book, that I would do the primary writing. I feel the book needs to have one voice. As I finish chapters, I pass them over to Michelle for review. She comments, makes changes, I re-write, then submit it to the writing group I belong to.

We are still playing the alternate world PBEM game. The game is about to wrap up “Book Two” while our writing of a novel is still redrafting Book One.

My advice to anyone considering collaboration is to get clear on your process first of all. Who has the final say when you disagree? How will you work out your disagreements? Will one person write, and another be the “idea” guy? What are your duties? And how will you split the rewards? Your personalities have to work well together, to supplement each other. It’s like marriage to some degree.

IF Micha and I make it into publication (and we are many pages away from the attempt), we both realize there will be a piddling amount of money to be had. We aren’t doing this for the money. We are doing it for the love of writing, and the love of our characters.

The rest is just icing on the cake.

Oh... and IF we ever make it into print, I believe we plan to use a single name as a pseudonym. People don't need to know there were two of us working on this story. They just want to know the story is good.

[This message has been edited by Elan (edited October 12, 2005).]


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Gnomeinclaychair
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Weren't there rumors that Alexandre Dumas had a whole staff of writers? He'd come up with the basic story line, characters, and whatnot, start the book, then hand it off.
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Warbric
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Our collaboration is frighteningly similar to what you describe of yours and Micha's, Elan. Except ours originated in pen & paper AD&D RPG play (pre-3rd Ed.), but it almost immediately departed from that once we started working on it. I could cut-&-paste your post and just change the names and game and it'd fit almost completely. Even the relationship, roles, and expectations are the same. Best of luck with it.
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JmariC
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I think there's a difference between co-writing a book versus a writer having a hand editor to work with them throughout the process.

Most collaborations I know of one wrote chapter 1, the other did corrections and wrote chapter 2, back and forth. Or one writer got one character/place the other got a different character/place. The point is, both (or all) writers wrote, instead of correcting or making suggestions.


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Elan
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I perhaps didn't fully explain our process. Micha has written a goodly amount of the content, but her writing was done mostly in the game. Between the two of us, we probably wrote 70% of the content of the game's version of Book One, which ended up being 1,098,000 words long, and about 98% of what will end up being included in the novel. (And yes, we have permission in writing from the owners of that other 2%).

I am taking the core of her writing and revising it for grammar, spelling and punctuation. The rewrite is mine, but the initial writing was hers in the sections she developed. (We did a lot of JPs, or "Joint Posts" where we tossed a segment back and forth and massaged it together. She wrote her character, I wrote mine.) If I feel a change needs to be made to the core premise, I run my ideas past her before making changes.

She has been very involved in the overall writing of the first draft, but she is less involved in the second draft rewrite and edits. Her dyslexia factors into this decision. As long is she is comfortable with the content, she usually bows to my greater prowess with spelling. If she didn't have dyslexia (and a houseful of kids to keep up with), we would probably have a different arrangement for the rewrite.

[This message has been edited by Elan (edited October 12, 2005).]


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Beth
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A friend of mine just cowrote a book with her brother; it was released earlier this month.

Her brother was strongest at sketching out the full plot and at writing descriptive passages (esp. of clothing!); she was stronger at dialog and characterization. I believe they did a thorough outline and then divided up the scenes between them, and then worked together on editing and revising for consistency, etc.


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Elan
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What's the name of your friend's book, Beth? Is it fantasy or sci-fi? Will we see it on bookstore shelves, soon? And did the two of them use both their names, or did they pick a single psuedonym?
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Beth
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It's a mystery story, the first in Llewelyn's new mystery line. They used a pseudonym. And uh I am a shameful friend because I do not remember the title or their shared name! It's a historical mystery set in Portland at a vaudeville theater.


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Elan
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oooo... Portland OREGON or Portland MAINE??? I lived in Portland Oregon for 18 years. It would be fun to see the city set as the backdrop.

Rather like watching the movie "The Hunted." That was filmed in Portland, OR. I worked in a building overlooking one of the areas where they filmed. It was fun to go back and see familiar places in the context of the movie. The movie "What the Bleep" was also filmed in Portland. Surprised me when it started up, cause I hadn't known that fact.


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Beth
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Oregon. I will just have to dig up the title!
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Elan
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Awesome... there are a variety of old theaters in Portland, OR with interesting architecture. One is the Aladdin Theater, one is the Bagdad Theater (one of these theaters was featured in What The Bleep). There is also another one that is now a haven for old motorcycle gang members... I'll have to get me a copy of this book when it comes out! (IF Beth can come up with a title). Mary Robinette should be interested in this topic, as well. It should be right up her alley.
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Beth
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ok, here it is:
Murder at the Portland Variety, by M.J. Zellnik.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0738707864/104-2149354-0888703?v=glance&n=283155&v=glance

My friend is the M, her brother is the J.


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hoptoad
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I didn't read all the posts.
Hope this is not covered by another.

I would collaborate. But I and my collaborator would have to learn the craft first.

And while I think about it:

• You would have to know what sort of story you wanted to write from the beginning. Planning and assigning tasks would have to be the most critical part of the process.

• Don't expect more from your collaborator than you do from yourself.

• Allow the collaborator to work from their strengths and interests, in the manner in which they excel, and don't shuffle them off onto the boring, laborious or otherwise 'unloved' part of the process. In other words, don't just collaborate with someone so that they can do all the yucky stuff.

• If you see a problem developing, speak up as soon as you can so it does not grow into a project killer.
It's simpler to find solutions to problems early in the process before time, energy and talent has been thoroughly invested in something that doesn't work. The resulting time wasted and frustration in trying to fix what already exists will stall the project and can easily kill a partnership.

• Respect the talent, skill and insight of your collaborator and work with someone who respects yours.

• Be dependable. Set and meet deadlines, but make them realistic ones. Don't promise to complete things in timeframes that are ridiculously short. You know the method and speed with which you write.

• Pay attention to maintaining the nature of your relationship. For instance, if you collaborate with friends, make the time to do the sort of things friends do WITHOUT obsessing about the project.

This last one may or may not be valid.

• Call in trusted, impartial and independent readers to critique and/or edit the WIP treating all the components as part of a whole project and limit the ongoing critiques of each other's individual components.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited October 12, 2005).]


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Pyre Dynasty
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I'm collaborating right now, It's dang fun. but hard. What Hoptoad says is true especially about the keeping the project seperate from your friendship. (And I'll add don't dare write something with someone you don't like or you'll end up burying them in the basement.) We took a workshop with Tracy and Laura Hickman and he told me to negotiate upfront exactally who is doing what. (Their method is one of them does the writing, for their Bronze Canticles books it was him and she edits and adds what is neccesary, then he rewrites it so it comes through in one voice.
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Paul-girtbooks
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I've always enjoyed the Niven and Pournelle collaborations; on their own I've never been able to get into them much at all. Williamson and Pohl did numerous duets. Pohl's collabs with Kornbluth were excellent, especially 'Wolfbane' which was pure cyberpunk - thirty years before Gibson, Sterling and Womack made that whole movement trendy. In recent years David Eddings has revealed that his partner Leigh was his collaborator from the very beginning of his career, and I'm sure Dick Francis said the same about his wife, which is why he stopped writing when she died.
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yanos
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I've written two novels as part of a collaborative effort with a friend. The thing is that you have to recognize each other's skill sets and work with them. Technically I'm the better writer, but she is better at character interrelationships. So we don't argue about those things. We argue about plot points etc, but that is all. It is slow, but then as I'm busy with so many other things and so is she, that is not a problem either.

The biggest problem is matching the writing styles. In the end what will be needed is a big rewrite to blend it together smoothly.


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