Please tell me to quit asking dumb questions if I'm over stepping the mark.

I would like to know what the strongest material known to man is. I want to build a cannister out of it. Pop in a nucleur power source and a message and send it back in time 1 million years. The cannister has to survive through to the present day.

I've heard of Titanium. That's supposed to be pretty tough -- right? It's what Wolverine's claws are made from. I also searched the web and something called Tungsten popped up too. Never heard of it before though.

Are these choices any good? Or is there some other thing that is more appropriate?

Edit: Just found out that Wolverine's bones were made out of Adamantium, not Titanium. Is that real stuff?

I believe Tungsten filaments were what Edison used in his first light bulb.

The problem with something really strong and hard is that it can also be really brittle. It depends on what kind of forces you want it to be able to resist.

They reinforce concrete by compressing it. They put rebar where they're going to pour the concrete, and then stretch the rebar when they pour it. After the concrete has set up, they release the rebar and it pulls the concrete together (compresses it). The reason they do this is that concrete is very strong when you compress it, but it is very fragile when you pull it (or it expands). By compressing it first, they make sure that when it gets hot in the summer, the concrete only expands to its normal (uncompressed) state, instead of expanding beyond that to where it will break.

Anyway, you want something that can withstand the forces you will put on it. If it's going to be twisted, it needs a different kind of strength than if it's going to be stretched, and a different kind of strength than if it's going to be compressed.

Within the Marvel universe, yes. In the real world, no.

And its not diamond, its both hard and stronger than diamond. Traditionally, its a metal.

Diamond is the hardest stuff on earth but its not the strongest. Diamond is brittle.

For real world science future hard, go with a titanium alloyed steel or carbon nanotube weave structure.

If you just want something that survives that long...well, many stones will (fossils are still around and they're much older than that). Flint, granite, etc. No need for fancy carbon. Glass, at a pinch, will do (I'm less sure because a million year ago we didn't make glass, but there's no reason for it to disintegrate abruptly). But any volcanic or stone that contains fossils will do.

My two cents.

Carbon nanofiber is in the 100 GP range for tensile strength, but the individual fibers (being molecule sized) have basically zero compressive strength and they even "squash" sideways at the molecular level. It's also totally flammable, a simple cigarette lighter could burn right through a cable strong enough to support a million tons.

Diamonds have extraordinary hardness and resistance to compression (they aren't quite at the top, though, a complex carbon based synthetic molecule rates higher, but you've probably never heard of it) but they can be broken by sudden shocks (like from a hammer) and they also can be burned, though less easily than carbon nanofiber.

Elemental metals are a couple of orders of magnitude weaker than even the current carbon synthetics, and most of them will also burn or at least corrode in the presence of oxygen. Alloys can reduce both problems, but can't totally eliminate them.

Advanced ceramics are totally fireproof, can be nearly as hard as diamonds, and the newest ones are "composites" (like rebar-concrete) at the micro level so cracks don't tend to propogate. Though brittle, the forces required to break through them are on the order of depleted uranium armor piercing rounds. They are also quite diverse and more are being invented, so you can just make up the particular properties of the stuff you want to invent. They aren't going to be making them flexible anytime soon, though. And their very hardness and resistance to wear limits the applications somewhat. Since it's basically impossible to fire a ceramic to end up with a machine-precise shape, you usually have to grind parts of it down, and the more nigh-indestructable a material is, the harder that job becomes.

Gold

That said, you'd need sufficient quantities to actually make something out of it.

I'd suggest cross-breeding a spider with a cow.

P.S., I would also include a lead layer around that nuclear fuel, or the person(s) you intend to dig it up might lose important body parts in a prolonged and unpleasant fashion.

But, seriously...I little lead couldn't really hurt from a safety standpoint. Or some very large warning signs written in multiple languages about not letting small children near the pellet...or young turtles, for that matter.

Inkwell
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"The difference between a writer and someone who says they want to write is merely the width of a postage stamp."
-Anonymous

I suggest creating a container capable of surviving re-entry, whilst protecting the materials inside, and sending it into space on a trajectory that returns it when and where you want it.

Just a bit of clarification about what the material is needed for.
It has to survive being buried for 1 million years. I'm counting on layers of rock etc forming on top of it with the geological changes and what not. That helps to confirm the genuineness of the age of the message when it is found. The future humans will know that the message was planted millions of years ago, and is therefore not just a hoax.
Also, it needs the nuclear power device to keep a digital timer running for 1 million years. When the clock reaches the year 1990, it's going to start sending out a tracking signal, so that the UFO detectors used by folk like NASA pick up the signal and go off to dig the thing up.

Oooh. I have another question you might be able to help me with:

I'm sending 6 folks back in time to bury this thing. But wondering if the readers will question - Why Bother? Why not just send it through & if the box is as tough as its meant to be, it will survive and get buried naturally anyway.
Any ideas how I can give them a reason they *must* oversee the burying of it.

One more time. Yes, and those sediments and rocks are altered structurally as well as chemically, over time. (ie geological changes) The structure of the box is unlikely to retain its integrity, thus exposing the contents to geological changes over geological time. I know these things. I'm a geologist with multiple degrees with much experience in the microscopic examination of sediments and their contained structures, and my thesis was on predicting the physico-chemical changes over time.

From the context, I don't think something made up will do here.

Some of the environmentalists brag that plastics and disposable diapers will last millions of years. Maybe something encased in plastic would do the trick...

(Oh, and Edison's first light bulb filaments were carbon from bamboo. Some of these bulbs are still known to be working after more than a hundred years. Tungsten came later.)

Edited for spelling.

I reckon the question of why my folks have to go back along with the object has been found:
1) They've got to find the correct location to place the message...or:
2) They've got to launch it on its voyage to the moon.

Mike - Thanks for you valuable input. Just for clarification, the capsule wouldn't last a million years if it were randomly buried, because the pressure of the geological change would never ever be able to be withstood.

In that case, I think Miriel's answer is almost my solution. I just got to figure out some object that is found recently that backdates that long ago. I've done quite a bit of searching so far & only turned up fossils that have been found. Which, I guess, is not quite right for me, because they've been through the same geological pressures as we've talked about already.

So --- what about this. I find a recent fossil discovery that dates back to 1 mill BC. Send my people back to that date and time, and they somehow create the message as a fossil instead. So, rather than taking back this capsule thing, they spell out the message in the ground with something & the fossil discoverer's can read the fossilised message. That way the date of the message would be proved too.

Now then, any answers as to how they could create a fossil message? Mike?

Or could they write the message with a trail of diamonds?

Edit:
Oh, forget to answer a question from earlier: The team aren't coming back. This is a one way ticket. And that's not the kind of one way ticket that is sung about in the Darkness's recent hit (One way ticket to hell and back).

Edit2:
Oo. Just thought of this. What about if it put the message in a blob of amber. Doesn't that preserve insections for millions of years, like in Jurassic Park? Or was that made up?

[This message has been edited by benskia (edited January 16, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by benskia (edited January 16, 2006).]

A company in Israel a few days ago announced beginning production by 2007 of a nano-based armor. 1/8 inch would stop a .308 shot. The material is called Inorganic Fullerenes.

They will be the largest producers of nanotubes. Hopefully, they will go into nanotube cables and other composites for civilian use.

quote:

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Rubies are corundum, and diamonds are four times harder than corundum.

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I seemed like Wolverine's stuff was metallic, or at least processed as a molten liquid and magnetically active. But I only know about what was in the movies. Coding a meaningful message seems the bigger problem. The progress of languages is pretty bizarre. How is this item certain to be discovered by someone likely to make good use of it?

I was just reading in the back of today's Watchtower that Moses sealed up a gold jar of manna in the Ark of the covenant, though later records say only the stone tables were in the ark. The idea that there could be a gold jar of manna somewhere out there is really interesting, given this conversation. Granted, any kind of material that is generally thought of as inherently valuable would be a liability to the longevity of the thing. I think whatever it is made of, it should be shaped like a cow femur so people don't start worshipping it.

Depleted Uranium hulls are what made the M1A1 such a formidable weapon in the first Gulf War, Operation Desert Storm. In that war, the M1A1 was basically indestructable. As a gunner on one of these dragons, I can personally testify to this fact. We took three direct hits from an Iraqi manned Soviet built T-70 MBT (Main Battle Tank) and still kept trucking. Several M1A1's received friendly fire from the U.S. Army's Apache Attack helicopter's Hell Fire anti-tank missle system and and kept rolling and it was only then that the Apache pilots realized they were firing at M1A1s. Even friendly fire from the Air Forces' A-10 Thunderbolt, nicknamed Wart Hog because of its ugly appearance, an attack plane designed for ground support and armor vehicle destruction did not stop the Depleted Uranium M1s. It has been theorized that the only thing that can stop an M1 is another M1 or anything that fires a depleted uranium tank round, which is what the M1 fires. With that said, the M1 has an achilles heel, like most tanks, this weak spot is the turret and the turret ring, the area between the turret and the hull. These areas are not made of Deplete Uranium. Pierceing these areas will score a kill. Mines designed to destroy the tack the tank crawls on are effective in stopping the tank. With that I have probably said enough as W and his homies will probably be raiding my house tonight.

Depleted Uranium also is radioactive. How low or high is that level of radioactivity remains debatable. Because of the radioactivity of the substance, it was believed that this is what contributed to "Gulf War Syndrome" which was the string of horrible birth defects that plagued children of the Desert Storm vets. Some of these birth defects included children born with no skeletal or partial skeletal structure or their skeletins being on the outside of the body, children born with no limbs or limbs attached to the wrong places on their bodies as well as children born with missing organs. Because of the birth defects my wife and I have resigned to the fact that we will not have any children, at least natural born.

Peace,
Scott

DU also has some drawbacks..its radioactive. Something the writer may want to consider or look into should he/she decide to use the DU angle. But, then again, in science fiction why would radioactivity matter, one can just write a line in a book "Thank God we developed that anti-radioactive covering...."

Then again, since its science fiction and fantasy, why worry about what is the strongest substance known to man. Make something up. "Thank God we developed this
*insert your own name here* metal..."

Peace,
Scott

P.S. On a personal note, Scott, I can relate to the conundrum of whether to risk reproducing as our first child had a fatal birth defect. Though related complications were as much of a reason to not. You know, there were a lot of birth defects at our installation, but none of us were actually in Desert storm proper. I wonder if the water in the Middle East just really is that bad.

Now, let me re-phrase my initial post.

1) Currently, the hardest substance known to man is Depleted Uranium.

2) It is found on the Abrams tank series and makes the tank virtually indestructible.

3) The entire tank is not composed of DU and therefore there is weak spot.

4) Depleted Uranium is radioactive and there maybe some problems with prolonged contact.

DU also isn't the hardest substance, a significant part of the advantage it has over cladding a tank in diamonds (cost aside) is that DU is a metal, and it bends rather than breaking outright. That's the essential hardness/toughness distinction. They don't make the entire hull out of it either, the hull is a macro-composite (like reinforced concrete) derived from Chobham. The DU takes the form of a heavy mesh that is incorperated into the layers of ceramic and steel used by the British system.

As per Inkwell's posts about geological forces acting over geological time-frames, a composite would suffer from "weak link" problems fairly quickly. "Tough" doesn't cut it, you need something hard, that is, something that resists force absolutely, doesn't give a millimeter unless you just plain break it. The basic importance of hardness in geology is that you can't do much to a harder material with a softer material using a steady force. But the basic problem with hard materials is that they tend to be brittle, particularly if you make something large out of them.

All metals, both alloys and elemental forms, are totally disqualified unless you find a way to sheild them pretty completely from elemental forces. They just aren't as hard as common minerals like silcone dioxide. Certain mineral forms have the proven capability to reside in sedementary strata and remain intact for geological time scales. There are also some advanced materials that match or exceed the relevant stats while being somewhat easier to work or at least less expensive.

Depleted Uranium may bend, I don't know, but it is what the APFS Sabot round is made of. So it can't bend that much as it pierces tank armor like a hot poker going through paper.

When going through the US Army Cavalry and Armor school in Ft. Knox, it was taught to us that Depleted Uranium was the hardest substance known to man and that was the reason it was chosen for armor piercing anti-tank rounds. Things may have changed, but I can tell you nothing pierces like DU and nothing protects like DU. And because it is Uranium there is a radioactivity risk. The risk is minimized which is why it carries the Depleted modifier. Prior to Desert Storm, it was not known if DU had any adverse affects. In the months leading up to the Desert Storm ground war, the US Army did state that prolonged exposure to Depleted Uranium may be a health risk, which is why we had to carry dosometers - - I think that's what it was called - - insde the tank to monitor the amount of radioactivity we were around. What were the results of all those tests? I have no idea I ETSed shortly after the war. The only thing I knew was what I heard on the news and when I was called in by the VA to undergo a physical and a barrage of medical tests as well as having to fill out a massive amount of paperwork detailing how long were we in the tanks under various situations, how many rounds were fired, what was the cyclic rate of fire of those rounds.

Peace,
Scott

Anyway, sorry for the sidetracking. benskia...after reading your post mentioning a use of amber as a lasting substance...I had a thought. Why not encode the message in the DNA of some creature and utilize the amber method. In fact, why not ‘plant’ many, many identical creatures to ensure the message survives intact (in fragmented parts from different specimens, at the very worst). Finding multiple examples of a fossilized species with the SAME genetic code would probably get the scientists’ collective attention. I'm not sure how they'd translate the code into the actual message, though. Oh well, probably just another useless thought.

Inkwell
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"The difference between a writer and someone who says they want to write is merely the width of a postage stamp."
-Anonymous

The heating up effect you describe is more than likely the spalding effect that happens when the round actually strikes the outside of the tank. The rod travels at an extremely high velocity, I can't remember just how fast, but it was incredibly fast. Though the rod is aerodynamic it does heat up due to the friction that it gathers on the way to its target. When the rod hits the heat from friction is discharged into tank. The impact from the round is so great that shards of hot metal break away from the inside of the tank's turret and flies through the inside of the turret like shrapnel. The hot shards of metal fly with such velocity that they tear through the ammunition storage area, as well human flesh, and ignite the rounds stored inside the turret causing secondary explosions and setting the inside of the tank on fire. Sometimes the explosion of the rounds are enough to decapitate the tank - - sends the turret flying into the air.

Peace,
Scott

I assumed we were both speaking of Kinetic Energy Penetrator rounds here (specifically, the M829A1 design)? I believe they called them "silver bullets" back in Op Desert Storm, though we're using type M829A3, M830, M830A1, and M908-OR (obstacle reduction) rounds by now, I'm sure.

In any case, the impact and subsequent release of heat energy causes the rod to disintegrate into dust, combusting when it reaches the air inside the tank (due to that aforementioned pyrophoricity). After a disintegrated DU penetrator reaches the interior of an armored vehicle, it explodes, behaving exactly as you so vividly described.

Finding intact rods in the desert as you mentioned (and I believe you, wholeheartedly) probably indicates that some of the penetrators punched all the way through the targeted vehicle(s) and survived impact with terrain due to reduced (albeit slightly) exit velocity. But that last bit is just my own personal opinion/assessment. After all, I'm not exactly an accredited expert in offensive weapons systems...merely an admirer.

In fact, even the base fullerines (buckyballs) tend to deform easily under compression, it could be regarded as an essential trait of anything that could reasonably be called a fullerine. The molecules aren't rigid, which is part of what makes them so amazingly strong in tensile applications.

And...it's even helped me to improve upon the plot a little. The inclusion of having a nearby fossil is now paramount to the story line.