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Author Topic: The Map
jpwriter
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Here we go again. I figured maybe if I primed the pump, I would see some more stuff come in.
Jerry

quote:
September, 1968

"Hold it steady!" Tim hissed. "You're gonna' make me fall, you bozo!"
"Don't call me a bozo! You're the bozo! Besides, I'm doing the best I can. You always give me the hard part." Dan groused loudly. "I have to hold the chair steady on top of this table and all you have to do is climb up and get the treasure out of the hole."
"Be quiet, somebody might hear us." Tim whispered while climbing down from the chair. "There ain't nothin' in this cubby. We gotta move over to that one in the corner. I got a feelin' about that one. I think I saw som'thin' while I was up there gettin' nothin' out of this one."
"Yeah, right! Just like the rest of the times you said that. I don't think there is any treasure in this basement. I think you are full of it and I'm getting tired of helping you."
"Come on, brother, one more. That's all I want. One more, okay?" Tim pleaded.



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kagome
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The story seems interesting, but there are again a lot of punctuation errors:

quote:
"Hold it steady!" Tim hissed, "You're gonna make me fall, you bozo!"
"Don't call me a bozo! You're the bozo! Besides, I'm doing the best I can. You always give me the hard part," Dan groused loudly, "I have to hold the chair steady on top of this table and all you have to do is climb up and get the treasure out of the hole."
"Be quiet, somebody might hear us," Tim whispered while climbing down from the chair. "There ain't nothin' in this cubby. We gotta move over to that one in the corner. I got a feelin' about that one. I think I saw som'thin' while I was up there gettin' nothin' out of this one."
"Yeah, right! Just like the rest of the times you said that. I don't think there is any treasure in this basement. I think you are full of it and I'm getting tired of helping you."
"Come on, brother, one more. That's all I want. One more, okay?" Tim pleaded.

In addition, I'd suggest to you not to overuse terms like "hissed", "whispered", "grumbled", "pleaded", and such. Try to stick at "said", it makes the dialogue quote invisible.

[This message has been edited by kagome (edited April 25, 2004).]


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Survivor
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Okay, I have to disagree. The only thing that actually makes a dialogue tag invisible is not putting it on the page. And many authors get away with doing tagless dialogue, so that isn't a silly suggestion.

In thia case, all your tags are justified. Tim hisses some criticisms of Dan's efforts, Dan grouses loudly, Tim whispers further orders, Dan replies without a tag, and then Tim pleads. Every tag is clearly saying something, none of the tags is "fluff".

There are only punctuation errors if we assume that every line of dialogue must be associated with one of the tags. But if we assume that, no editing of the punctuation can save this...there just aren't enough tags to go 'round.

That said, this isn't such a good opening. First off, I don't like pure dialogue openings because they don't establish POV well. This particular opening doesn't establish a POV at all, I have no idea at the end whether it is Tim, Dan, or a third person watching them. Second, we get almost no information about the setting, and that fairly late in the presented text. We know that they are in something that could be called a basement. We know that they belong to a culture that uses something that could be called a chair. And we know...virtually nothing else about where this story is taking place. We only know when it is taking place because you use a header to tell us that. We don't even find out much about the characters or their relationship...which would be the only point of using this much dialogue. Brothers. Looking for treasure. Probably not too bright.

There isn't a lot here to make most people want to read further. Not that there's anything to make anyone stop reading...but if you want to see "more stuff come in," whatever that means, I suspect you'll have to use stronger bait.


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djvdakota
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I'm not overly bothered by beginning a story with dialogue--particularly dialogue that is so intriguingly leading to something quite interesting. However, to agree with the wise Survivor!, it would be good to establish some POV early on. If it were me, I would do it immediately after Dan's first line of dialogue.

Also, and this may just be the format in which it appears on the forum page (no indents), I became somewhat confused as to who was in charge here. At some times it sounds like Dan is in charge, at others as if Tim is begging a favor from Dan who otherwise has no interest in what is going on, at others as if they are partners in some scheme and Dan always gets the dirty end of the deal. I think the confusion is largely contained within Dan's first line of dialogue. If the 'Dan groused loudly' were placed a little more strategically in his line of dialogue this confusion would be lsomewhat cleared up. Maybe place it after "You're the bozo!" That's a more sensical place to break up that line of dialogue, I think.


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jpwriter
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I read the text as it appears in the post and it felt all squashed together. Weird.
As to POV. This was the second story I wrote, last September I think, and it was before I had read anything about POV. Even now I am just beginning to get the hang of some aspects of POV. All my stories up till a few weeks ago were first person. The science fiction I am writing now I am trying my hand at third person. I am constantly having to go back and plow out first person and plant third.
It is very helpful to me to hear what more experienced people, as both of you surely are, have to say.
Thanks so much and I will be studying more on POV and seeing how it relates to this story soon.
Jerry

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AeroB1033
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Firstly, you don't need that many apostrophes and dropped letters to get the impression across, and you sure don' wan' your story lookin' like this.

Secondly, if you need tags like "pleaded", "groused" and such to get the feeling of the dialogue across, then your dialogue needs work. And while your dialogue isn't perfect in this passage, trust me--it gets all of those impressions across without needing those tags. So all it shows in this case is a lack of confidence in your prose. If you need to ensure that people can identify which character is speaking, use the "said" tag.

[This message has been edited by AeroB1033 (edited April 26, 2004).]


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Survivor
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I might agree for "pleaded", but the other tags give us information that we couldn't plausibly deduce from the text of their conversation.

It's just like using actions and guestures. You can't have pure dialogue in which the characters explain every action they take, sight they see, and thought they think. Or at least, if you did that, it would be totally unrealistic.

People don't always say in words that they are speaking loudly or softly or sarcastically. Dialogue simply cannot carry the burden of establishing a scene by itself. This is one reason I only use pure dialogue vingettes where only the actual words spoken have importance, where the setting, physical actions, facial expressions, and so forth have no narrative import.

Nothing about Tim's initial words tells us that he is hissing rather than shouting. Nothing about Dan's reply tells us that he is grousing loudly rather than grumbling under his breath or shouting back. While Tim's counter-response would be more funny if he said it loudly...the tone of the piece would suggest this as a strong possibility without the tag specifying that he whispered.

For the last line, the fact that Tim says "come on" and "okay?" tells us that he is making a request. So pleaded could be cut with no real loss. But the same is true of "while climbing down from the chair." The fact that Tim can't find anything in 'this' cubby and wants to go check 'that' one strongly suggests he would get down from the chair.

This dialogue doesn't need "work", it needs action and setting. It also requires a POV.


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