Hatrack River Writers Workshop   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Writers Workshop » Forums » Fragments and Feedback for Short Works » Lestrelathalastaláni

   
Author Topic: Lestrelathalastaláni
Mekvat
Member
Member # 2271

 - posted      Profile for Mekvat   Email Mekvat         Edit/Delete Post 
First thirteen lines of the Chapter 2 of the same WIP novel in my previous post (Aethan the Scribe). By "men" I am careful to mean "humans."

* * *

There were not always men in Palthesda. The thought washed over his mind as he surveyed the mist-held horizon from atop a stone-black crest of hill. There were men in Palthesda now, of course, swarms of them, scarring up the land with plows and roads, fouling it with the stench of cattle, making life, and love, and death in a land that was not theirs. There were not always men in Palthesda. The long, dull ache that represented that thought -- that fact! -- in his mind tortured him, compelled him to act. It reassured him, and convinced him that his actions were just.

His slender, virile form was slung over the back of a moa-bird, loose but careful, completely relaxed yet ready to snap immediately to action if required. He was naked except for a cloth tied around his middle, ...

* * *

Your feedback welcome. (Edited to add paragraph breaks.)

[This message has been edited by Mekvat (edited December 22, 2004).]


Posts: 47 | Registered: Dec 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
DeepDreamer
Member
Member # 5337

 - posted      Profile for DeepDreamer   Email DeepDreamer         Edit/Delete Post 
Whoa. Topic title is intimidating. A tongue-twister, at the very least. I assume that it's the name of the chapter...but then, my assumptions aren't always correct. So anyhow. I like this excerpt more than the last because of the tension involved, the threat of conflict. It leaves me wanting to know more about what's going on, what this...native person? is going to do. I know the why, but not the how, and that's what's gotten me interested.

And one other thing...yes, you aren't supposed to post more than 13 lines, but there is nothing to prohibit you from finishing a thought or a sentence.


Posts: 34 | Registered: Apr 2007  | Report this post to a Moderator
Keeley
Member
Member # 2088

 - posted      Profile for Keeley   Email Keeley         Edit/Delete Post 
The title of this is very intimidating, but the writing is all right. I got tired of hearing the "there were not always men in Palthesda" theme, but the rest pulled me in.

I would offer to read, but I won't have the time until after Jan 1. If you still need readers by that point, please email me.


Posts: 836 | Registered: Jul 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
Mekvat
Member
Member # 2271

 - posted      Profile for Mekvat   Email Mekvat         Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you. DeepdDreamer said:

quote:
Whoa. Topic title is intimidating. A tongue-twister, at the very least.

Agreed. What doesn't come out in 13 lines is that these folks --- or at least the upper class folks --- have very long names that are only used in official or ceremonial circumstances. They have short names which they use for informal situation. This character's short name is Taláni, which happens to be far less demanding on the reader. The short names are most often used. Think "Maximus" vs. "Maximus Decimus Beridius", or "Apu" vs. "Apu Nahasapeemapetilan". The long name rolls out only when it's needed.

By the way, when you said "native person?" you're very close to the mark. There are non-human races in the story, but they don't fall into the usual fantasy categories (elves, dwarves, trolls, dragons). Taláni's folk, the Silgath, are ... well, the next paragraphs give all the gory details. In any case, they are conceptually something like Rousseau's noble savages.

Duly noted on finishing sentences. Here's the rest of that last paragraph:

* * *

His slender, virile form was slung over the back of a moa-bird, loose but careful, completely relaxed yet ready to snap immediately to action if required. He was naked except for a cloth tied around his middle, secured with a thick leather belt-strap which held a stone-headed axe, his only weapon. He rode the great, thick-legged bird without seat or saddle; he had a simple leather cord tied around its neck for a rein, which he held loosely in his right hand.

* * *

Cheers.


Posts: 47 | Registered: Dec 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
Mekvat
Member
Member # 2271

 - posted      Profile for Mekvat   Email Mekvat         Edit/Delete Post 
Keeley said:

quote:
I got tired of hearing the "there were not always men in Palthesda"

Understood. I've had some colleagues at work reading my drafts, and they said the same thing.

Would love to send some things on over, after Jan 1. How much is too much?


Posts: 47 | Registered: Dec 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
Survivor
Member
Member # 213

 - posted      Profile for Survivor   Email Survivor         Edit/Delete Post 
POV.
Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999  | Report this post to a Moderator
Mekvat
Member
Member # 2271

 - posted      Profile for Mekvat   Email Mekvat         Edit/Delete Post 
True, Survivor. POV is one reason I posted part of this chapter. The POV for most of the book is third person limited. In this scene, the only shoulder to look over happens to belong to the guy I need to introduce. I'm not sure how to handle that with a consistent POV, and what I came up with is admittedly awkward.

I need to communicate two things: 1) What/who Taláni is, which requires some amount of physical description (He's not human, what is he?), and 2) why he's going to do all of the horrible things he's about to do. I don't have to do all of that in one scene, obviously.

The chapter can be summarized as follows, paragraph-by-paragraph: (3rd limited) Taláni thinks about the fact that at one time, there were no humans in his neck of the woods. / (shift to 3rd omni) We see how he is sitting, how he is dressed. / We see what he's doing (scanning the horizon), which leads to description of his eyes (his most prominent feature). / We see his carriage and posture, which reveals something about his attitude toward his peers. / We learn how this attitude has set him on a particular course: war, genocide, general unpleasantness. / His name, and what it means, are revealed.

Options? False premises in the above? In the meantime, I'll take another crack at it ...


Posts: 47 | Registered: Dec 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
Monolith
Member
Member # 2034

 - posted      Profile for Monolith   Email Monolith         Edit/Delete Post 
I actually like it, again agreeing with the "there were not always men in Palthesda". I like the description of what he sees and the fact that this indigenous(sp?) man is upset about this all too real intrusion of his territory.

And the last one you posted got even more descriptive, and it got me to wondering what was going to happen next.

Those are my thoughts.

-Bryan-


Posts: 340 | Registered: Jun 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
Mekvat
Member
Member # 2271

 - posted      Profile for Mekvat   Email Mekvat         Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks, Bryan. That's good news; it sounds like I communicated the essential point.

I'll be retooling these first couple of chapters for POV slips and the repetition thing will be going the way of the dodo. I'll post revisions after Christmas.


Posts: 47 | Registered: Dec 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
djvdakota
Member
Member # 2002

 - posted      Profile for djvdakota   Email djvdakota         Edit/Delete Post 
Roots in New Zealand for this one, eh?

I agree with all that's been said above, for good and, well, not so good. But I must add one thing:

quote:
There were not always men in Palthesda. The long, dull ache that represented that thought -- that fact! -- in his mind tortured him, compelled him to act. It reassured him, and convinced him that his actions were just.

This bit made me wonder if we were dealing with some kind of life form on whom the men had made their settlements, rather than in whose country they made their settlements. This problem can largely be solved by introducing us to the character from whose POV you are trying to convey the story. You've introduced his land, but not him. So when I keep reading about Palthesda, followed by the above quoted lines, I start wondering if your character is Palthesda rather than his country.


Posts: 1672 | Registered: Apr 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
Survivor
Member
Member # 213

 - posted      Profile for Survivor   Email Survivor         Edit/Delete Post 
I don't recommend switching around your POV a lot. It is hard on the reader and the story, and that will probably make the critiques hard on the writer.
Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999  | Report this post to a Moderator
Keeley
Member
Member # 2088

 - posted      Profile for Keeley   Email Keeley         Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not sure how long is too long. It depends on how my schedule looks at the time.

Usually I manage to fit in anything from 100-10,000 words, though if I'm busy I try to keep myself from reviewing anything over 6,000. Every now and then I can manage stuff up to 15,000 words, but those moments are rare.


Posts: 836 | Registered: Jul 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
Mekvat
Member
Member # 2271

 - posted      Profile for Mekvat   Email Mekvat         Edit/Delete Post 
I haven't been comfortable with this chapter since I wrote it. It didn't work, for a number of reasons: Too much description, too much backstory, deep penetration into a character's thoughts and feelings (when I don't usually), shifting POV, telling rather than showing.

While trying to tweak the mess, I realized two things: I was putting far too much burden on just one chapter, and I was focusing too much about the character's inner thought life. He's a dynamic, almost impulsive figure, a brutal but charismatic leader. Why in blazes was I introducing him with inner monologue?

So, I recast Talani's opening chapter as a scene, with action, dialogue, and a poor schmoe to take the axe to the head. The new chapter does a much better job of setting up the conflict between Talani's people and Aethan's people.

Thirteen (or so) lines, for ya:

----

Goren had wet himself, but hadn't yet noticed. He was fixated on the band of Silgáthi warriors who stood before him, chattering back and forth in the sing-song pitter-pat that passed for language among their kind. Why hadn't they killed him yet? All for a stray goat. He should have left it in the gorge!

The big one -- he stood as tall as Goren's chest -- sat silently, slung casually over the back of a great moa-bird, staring at him. He lay there on the stony river bank, afraid to move, afraid to breathe, afraid to do anything but match the beast-man's awful stare.

The Silgáthi chieftain was naked except for the cloth bound around his middle and the stone-headed axe that dangled from his leather belt. He looked thin, but strong. His physique was a knot-cord of bone and ligament: He looked like a twisted-up rag, or a gnarled oak sprung to life.

----

(SPOILER! Goren doesn't make it.)

Feedback?


Posts: 47 | Registered: Dec 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
Survivor
Member
Member # 213

 - posted      Profile for Survivor   Email Survivor         Edit/Delete Post 
I think it's a lot better, though opening with a disposable POV character is always one of those nits, you know? But you could make it a prologue, or you could go the complete opposite direction and do this fairly often with Talani's victims.

A few particulars, you start off your POV with a clear-cut POV violation by telling us something that Goren hasn't noticed. And it's something pretty unrealistic at that, the basic mechanisms behind a fear induced loss of sphincter control ensures that it is a noticible event. On the other hand, the reaction is likely to be different from what it would be under normal circumstances.

A more or less minor point, "All for a stray goat" coming right after the question of why they hadn't killed him yet makes it seem a bit like question and answer, which is not the case.

quote:
The big one -- he stood as tall as Goren's chest -- sat silently, slung casually over the back of a great moa-bird, staring at him.
Now this is just hard to understand. First you tell us that this is the big one, then you tell us that he stands as tall as Goren's chest, then you let us know that he isn't standing at all, and moreover is in such a position that Goren would have no little difficulty ascertaining his height.

Of course you know that the Silgáthi are typically much shorter than humans, but the reader of this opening does not know that, yet. The reader of this opening only knows that this sentence makes utterly no sense.

Finally, "a twisted-up rag" is not a very heroic description. If I were about to die, I would like to think I'd have the balls to think this about my murderers, but if I'd wet myself already, that probably wouldn't be the case.

Still, overall this is a very interesting opening, and not a terrible way to introduce Talani.


Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999  | Report this post to a Moderator
Mekvat
Member
Member # 2271

 - posted      Profile for Mekvat   Email Mekvat         Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks, Survivor.

I don't like throwaway characters much myself, but I'm much happier with how this chapter works now. (It's Chapter 2; we get a real character's POV in the opening to Chapter 1.) I may change my mind later and tell the scene from someone else's perspective, we'll see.

"Noticed" was a poor choice of words. I didn't really mean that Goren was completely unaware of the involuntary urination, only that he hadn't had time to assimilate it yet because he was too focused on the situation. Probably still a POV violation, but my precise thought was something like: "Goren had wet himself, but this fact was not at the forefront of his mind at the moment."

Point taken on estimating height: The chieftain is sitting on the back of a large flightless bird, which would complicate matters even further.

RE twisted rags, I wasn't imagining it as an insulting picture, but one associated with Talani's wiry build and non-human musculature: gnarled, knotted, twisted-up.

Besides, who knows what odd thoughts pass through people's heads when they're about to be murdered. I think that

quote:
The last thing Jimmy thought about before the bullet ripped into his brain was Scarlatti's bright orange sweater-vest. What an ugly goddamn sweater. F'ing orange sweater.

is much more interesting than Jimmy thinking about his mother, or his wife, or how he'd squandered his life. Maybe it's just me.

Still, I had already cut it anyway. The muse is fickle.


Posts: 47 | Registered: Dec 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
Survivor
Member
Member # 213

 - posted      Profile for Survivor   Email Survivor         Edit/Delete Post 
Eh...mmm. If I'm ever about to be killed by elves, I'll try and let you know what it's like
Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999  | Report this post to a Moderator
   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2