posted
UPDATE: So THAT's manuscript format, eh? Got it! I'll post a last revision before bed this evening, and then I may as well join the workshop proper.
UPDATE! I'm clueless! Manuscript form?? What ELSE do I need to know?? Gaaaahhhhh!
UPDATE: Version 5 (that's 4 to you) awaits! As does my Egg & Sausage McMuffin!
This is the opening of a nine-page story for the Wizards of the Coast crowd.
"He's betting haste will keep our swords sheathed," thought Bendryn as he and his two companions ran through the moonlit streets. "His ignorance may doom all of us." Bendryn was a young scholar, and friend to the two old knights that ran ahead of him. They had only minutes to reach the mansion, to stop the mage Lovorn. The mage's apprentice, Xandri, convinced by Bendryn that Lovorn would be killed by revenge-seeking knights, played a dangerous game to insure his own survival. Xandri would doubtless have swordsmen there to settle accounts upon Lovorn's death, for Lovorn - no fool - had certainly bound Xandri's potentially traitorous magic before the ritual began. Such were the machinations of dangerous men greedy for more power. Bendryn saw no sign of the city watch; at least one promise had been kept, but Bendryn and the knights should have been contacted days, not minutes ago. Now there was no time, no time at all. By now Lovorn's ritual was probably half-complete. Damn the little monster! An ancient terror was rising and the apprentice's gambit had reduced the companions' options to the one no sane man would otherwise choose. Gasping for breath, Bendryn saw smoke flow from scattered chimneys and he almost faltered: There would be fire and death soon enough.
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posted
a) Too many names. b) The start annoyed me, as I thought it was dialogue. c) I, in general, dislike thoughts in quoations. d) Cliches, such as "dangerous game" "moonlit streets" e) No emotional effect on me whatsoever, until the last line. f) Too much exposition. g) PoV seems shakey. h) Exposition too compressed
Advice:
Start earlier in time, when the action started, or figure out how to get rid of the plodding exposition.
[This message has been edited by Phanto (edited January 08, 2004).]
posted
[1] Snarky response: But all it means is that I've written the perfect bit of D&D prose.
[2] Reasoned response: You're right. Even breaking it up into three paragraphs the thing is just downright clumsy. Your remarks are well taken. Let the healing (er, of my piece) begin!
posted
And here's a revision (roughly 15 lines, 12 point courier, Word for Windows):
All three men might die tonight, to kill a god in its infancy. They had expected days to prepare; this evening's note gave them hours. There was no time to assemble a reasonable offense, so they settled on Bendryn's plan of frank desperation. Two of the men sharpened their swords, tightened their armor. Bendryn, no wizard but a scholar of that art, wrapped his thoughts around the ritual they must face, the magic they must hinder. There was a knock at the door. A voice out of breath said, "Lovorn has started!" Bad tidings! They ran hard, wild with urgency. Bendryn noticed smoke rising from scattered chimneys and almost faltered in premonition: There would be fire and death too soon, too soon.
NOTE: I notice that I have adopted the annoying habit - at least in this piece - of replacing the article "and" with a mere comma. The comma seperation thing works in the very last line, but I can see how too much use in the previous lines (sword/armor, ritual/magic) may diminish the impact of "too soon, too soon."
I see three possible reactions: [1] Leave them. It pushes the pace (I want this thing to drive the reader relentlessly "Yah, mule!" [whip crack]). [2] Use "and" [3] Decide which side of the comma to keep and trim the fat.
Thoughts?
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posted
The first version had too many names, the middle was information overload. But it did have somewhat of a pov. The rewrite is actually easier to read, but utterly lacking in a solid pov. It isn't 1st person, and not 3rd person limited. It might be 3rd person omnipotent, but it seems more like camera eye pov, which is one fo the most distant pov's in my opinion.
Grammar is very important, but pov is the root of how you write. Pick up one or two of your favorite books and look at how they start. Look at their opening paragraphs and see if they start with the pov they use throughout the rest of the book.
POV is a big issue with me. Your writing is pretty good, but I actually prefered the first version...except for the information overload. The second lacked the immediacy of the first. Eithe way should be fine as long as you find and stick to a pov.
posted
I liked the rewrite better. I understood better what was going on, and that even with less exposition, but it was more selective and less intrusively presented expositon, therefore more effective. The comma thing didn't bother me -- in fact, I think it does lend a sense of urgency -- but, as LordD wrote, the POV needs to be reigned in.
quote:They ran hard, wild with urgency
The after-comma phrase here suggests to me people not in control of their actions, more frantic than purposeful. I'd advise removing the "wild". Rather than telling how they ran, show it: They ran hard, their feet pounding a drumbeat on the ground. Or some such thing.
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited January 08, 2004).]
posted
Thank you all. I'll revise - think I know how I want approach the first paragraph to make this clearly Bendryn's POV - and post probably tomorrow night. Right now, it's lunch time and there's a chili dog somewhere with my name on it.
UPDATE: Did I say chili dog? I meant steak Grande Burrito. Dios bless La Salsa!
[This message has been edited by ccwbass (edited January 08, 2004).]
posted
Did I say I'd post a revision tomorrow? Sorry. This actually makes 17 lines in 12-point courier (Word for Windows). I just can't do what I want in 13 lines. Spaces between paragraph blocks should be read as mere paragraph breaks. ---- Bendryn regarded his companions, too generous of heart to wonder if either would die tonight. He hoped they would not have to pay that price in the act of killing a god at its birth. But where they should have been given weeks to assemble a reasonable attack they were given only hours, and there was no time but to accept Bendryn’s desperate plan. As they waited for the summons, Bendryn, no mage but a scholar of that art, watched the two old knights ready their weapons as his own mind wrapped itself around the ritual they must face, the magic they must hinder. Bendryn could tell the knights were impatient to begin, and he was all nervous energy waiting for release.
There was a knock at the door. A voice out of breath said, “Lovorn has started!” Bad tidings!
They ran hard, sped by urgency. Bendryn calculated; they had only minutes. He noticed smoke rising from scattered chimneys and he almost faltered in premonition: There would be fire and death too soon, too soon. --------------------------------------- By crackey, I'm a-gittin' there. - CCW
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quote:too generous of heart to wonder if either would die tonight
Why not "He wondered if any of them would live." Or "He wondered if they would die tonight."
Description is one of those things that can be wonderfull if done well, and put people off when not. Maybe you should try a different tactic, just write the base into. The action and dialog that is needed. Then once you have that try and fill in what isn't clear.
Maybe it is just me, but my mind tended to wander as I read it. Don't feel bad, I make some of the same mistakes regularly. Get things moving, give the readers enough to understand what is going on. Along the way you can throw in little snippets to fill the reader in.
Let me give you a line or two of how I might start something like this.
Bendryn watched as the knight ran a stone down his sword. Already sharp hours ago, the knight went through the motions over and over. The sound of the metal and stone were starting to get on Bendryn's nerves. He had watched the knight for over a half hour in a daze. He would have believed the knight beyond fear if it were not for the occasional shake of his hand. Would the knight live through the night? Bendryn did not know."
Ok, not that great, but it does bring the reader into an event. Shows them the world you are bringing them into. But that is just what I like...
[This message has been edited by Lord Darkstorm (edited January 08, 2004).]
posted
CCW, I still like the second version. I agree with LordD that this third is a bit too ho-hum. As per one of the other Hatrack threads, the first line of your second version is the most compelling.
I hate to sound like a broken record on these threads, but you're using too many weak verbs. Plus, "too generous of heart" isn't something someone would generally think about himself; show this through Bendryn's actions and thoughts and through the reaction of other people to him.
Maybe meld the versions: All three men might die tonight, to kill a god in its infancy. Bendryn regarded his companions, wondering at the impossibility of the task before them. Instead of days to prepare, this evening's note gave them hours, leaving no time to assemble a reasonable offense. They had settled on Bendryn's plan in frank desperation.
While (names of companions) sharpened their swords and tightened their armor, Bendryn, no wizard himself but a scholar of that art, wrapped his thoughts around the ritual they must face, the magic they must hinder. The two knights were impatient to begin, and he, too, was all nervous energy waiting for release.
Well, you get the idea.
I'd also give a name to the "voice," or at least a role, like a page or messenger. The POV is more on track, so you're onto something here.
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posted
Well, I'm wondering right now why I should feel obliged to create the killer hook in the first 13 lines. Editors, if what I'm told is correct, give it a page at least. What I've been doing is trying to cram foreshadowing - the fire and death and Bendryn's essential character and why it matters in the final paragraph - into too small a space, trying to sell the entire story in, what, ten sentences?.
I think I have a way out of this, however. I'll work on it some more tomorrow.
This is fun. I haven't written anything since a paper on Lear over two years ago. I haven't written fiction since 1988. I forgot how hard it is.
posted
Okey dokey. I can't complete the opening scene I want in 13 lines, so this one goes to 19 (12 point courier, Word). Spaces here = paragraph breaks, blah blah blah. ----------------------------- Embers burned in the fireplace and the scholar was gripped by black premonition; there would be fire and death soon, too soon. How much blood to kill a god in its infancy? Did either of the knights know?
"Stop trembling," said the older knight. "Courage, Bendryn."
"Yes," said Bendryn, "yes. We must not fail, though I am scared."
"Listen to Cadmir," said the younger knight. "We know your plan offers the only hope. You know it, too. You've simply forgotten."
"Forgive me, Luthien. I am not used to this." Doubt made Bendryn speak quickly. "We should have had days, weeks, to prepare, not hours." --------------- [line 13 has just been reached] --------------- There was a knock at the door. A lackey's voice, out of breath, called: "The ritual has begun!" Bad tidings!
Now they were left with only minutes. The knights were already out the door. Their action stiffened Bendryn's resolve. He found his courage and ran to catch up, ran to help them shut the door to hell. --------------------- And more exposition follows as I break up time on their run to Lovorn's mansion.
POV problems? I'm getting closer to solving the problem, I think. There are two or three key phrases I desperately don't want to lose, which is why they persist.
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posted
My off-the-cuff response... Older knight? Younger knight? Who's speaking? Cadmir-->Bendryn-->Luthien from oldest to youngest with Bendryn being the POV character, but I had to think about it (and I hope thats right ). And the first sentence had me thinking the primary character's name was "Embers." I thought, "man, if I was bruning in a fireplace, I'd be grip-ped with black premonitions too."
Despite all that, I figured out what was going on in no time flat and found myself interested in what was going to happen next. Like, what's this issue with blood for Gods and whatnot?
As a beginning, I'd keep reading. But I'll admit that the first time reading through this I was a little confused. But I wouldn't be if I kept reading and context for all these questions was provided in a timely manner.
I rather like this so far... but I'm a brand-newbie, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
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I had the same problem with which name goes with which description. It would help with clarity to start by using the name, and then tack the description onto it. Especially for a POV character.
For example, an exchange where it is the first time Lurthien speaks could work like this:
"Its the only way," said Luthien.
Bendryn knew the young knight was right. Still, the thought gave him little reassurance.
The young knight/old knight descriptors, while to the point, didn’t interest me much. You might want to try for more description in general in this version, just to give the reader a bit more to hold on to, but no enough to slow the action.
And 13 lines is the first page, in manuscript format, so yes, that could be all they might read.
[This message has been edited by GZ (edited January 09, 2004).]
posted
Thought about the embers thing driving to work. My current opening line:
Bendryn watched the embers burn in the fire place and was gripped by black premonition: There would be fire and death too soon, too soon. He wondered, how much blood to kill a god in its infancy? Would all three of us die before reaching the altar?
"Stop trembling, scholar," said Cadmir, adjusting his armor. "Trust your plan. Luthien and I do."
"We should have had days to prepare, Cadmir. Not hours. I am sorry for this."
Luthien snorted. "My brother and I have faced death before, following less capable people for less worthy reasons. . ."
Worthy reasons, thought Bendryn. Desperate reasons was the actual truth. The door to hell will need to be shut tonight, or the world would burn. There was no price to high to pay, and no one else to be found in time who would pay it even if they could.
There was a knock at the door. Etc.
[And other changes follow. If Amazon aint' lyin', "View and Viewpoint" should be waiting for me when I get home. I've got this weekend to devour it because school starts on frickin' Tuesday. - CW]
posted
Ooooh...much better, CCW. I like it. Even though I've read the previous versions and know the information, this version seemed new -- made me want to keep reading. Good job. Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Okay. I wanted to be sure the big pat on the back stood alone. Now don't stop fine-tuning, whether you do it after the main story is finished or as you go along, whichever is your method of writing. And hang onto that willingness to rewrite. It's impressive. Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Have to chime in and say: nice! Interesting, drags reader in, and provides tension.
Minor issues:
Bendryn watched the embers burn in the fire place ["was" is passive, as it is a descriptive word. Maybe you could end the setence here and then go on to say: A black permonition gripped him.] and was gripped by black premonition: There would be fire and death too soon,[the second time should be more emphasized, imo.] too soon. He wondered, how much blood to kill a god in its infancy? Would all three of us [them, for tense reasons.] die before reaching the altar?
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posted
I learned a long time ago how important peer review is. My approach to writing fiction has, in only a few days, begun to resemble my approach to, say, doing a paper on one of Shakespeare's plays: I don't care if someone agrees with me, but I do care that they understand what I'm saying. Hence, rewrites for consistency and clarity. My gosh, my papers never looked the same from first draft to final submission. Why I expected fiction to be any different will . . . oh, wait; I do know. It's that damned word "art." Well, here's what I've learned since, what, wednesday?:
"Art" is what the artist calls stuff he can't sell, and "art" is what the buyers call the stuff they actually buy, and somewhere in-between "Art" and "art" is an artist's willingness to stop thinking about his stuff in capital letters.
So, yeah - even in this last version there are things I want to change, tighten up, and I'll do that tonight. I'm glad I'm learning, getting better at this, but I'm a good enough reader to know I have a long way to go.
quote:So, yeah - even in this last version there are things I want to change, tighten up, and I'll do that tonight. I'm glad I'm learning, getting better at this, but I'm a good enough reader to know I have a long way to go.
And you take more steps down the road of learning. Even with the things I am good at (programming mainly) I still realize there is so much I have not learned, other things I can improve. The same goes with writing. You work hard and pour out your story, and put it out for others to read...but wait, they don't think it is as good as you thought it did. That first one is the hardest. Denial, assumed superiority, ect, but once you get past that you realize you are writing for people, and other people were not as impressed.
Keep at it, your writing will get better as long as you keep learning.
quote:Well, I'm wondering right now why I should feel obliged to create the killer hook in the first 13 lines. Editors, if what I'm told is correct, give it a page at least.
And as GZ said, in manuscript format (where the text of the story is supposed to start at the middle of the sheet of paper), the first 13 lines are all there is on the first page.
posted
Well, there is an article by Vonda McIntyre at the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America website (www.sfwa.org) that has a link to a downloadable PDF file which shows exactly how a manuscript should look.
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). And the first sentence had me thinking the primary character's name was "Embers." I thought, "man, if I was bruning in a fireplace, I'd be grip-ped with black premonitions too." 
