posted
Some high fantasy with a touch of social commentary. Comments on the first 13 are appreciated, offers to read the whole story even better. Edit: Tweaked the 2nd version.
“Uri, come out here please, I need you!” At the sound of his employer’s voice, Uri looked up from the shipment of dry goods he was checking in. “I’m almost done here, Ibnu,” he shouted out the door of the stockroom, “can it wait a few minutes?” The old shopkeeper poked his head in the door. He was a bit shorter and stockier than was common among the Falderi, but he had that people’s characteristic black hair and dark eyes, contrasting sharply with snowy skin so pale it was translucent around the edges. He wore the same garb as nearly everyone in the town of Olanderiam; a loose blouse and trousers in white, black or grey(white in Ibnu’s case today) bound tight around the limbs with colorful sashes and silken cords.
Alternate opening:
“Come out here please, Uri, I need you!” Ibnu cried. Uri looked up from the shipment of dry goods he was checking in. “I’m almost done here, Ibnu,” he shouted out the door of the stockroom, “can it wait a few minutes?” The old shopkeeper poked his head in the door. “That stranger is coming,” Ibnu said in a harsh whisper, as if the man being spoken of might overhear, despite not having entered the shop yet. “He likes you, Uri, but I always feel like he’s about to put a curse on me, watching me with those sky-colored eyes. You know, they say he swallowed a falling star to gain powers from beyond the world.” Uri rolled his eyes, then looked directly at Ibnu. He was a bit shorter and stockier than was common among the Falderi,
posted
An individual inventories delivered products.
Title "Star Swallower" evokes early '40s pulp science fiction and digest splashy covers.
Slow, if any, dramatic movement start, the barest hint of maybe drama start after some time elapsed later. From the title, that Ibnu wants Uri to come see a celestial anomaly? Night or daylight sky? More dramatic if daytime, though that and the former are unrealizied within the fragment.
Instead, pleasantries, bare setting detail paraphrased, and physical appearance introductions given sans antagonism, causation, tension, motivation, stakes at risk, and tone, not even ominous menace or premonition in-cues thereof. A heretofore never before in all of prose creation described strange glow from outside the stockroom door would serve ominous menace and premonition features aligned to the title. Or similar or other.
Several grammar errors and which call attention to craft shortfalls.
“'Uri, come out here],] please[.] I need you!'” Adverb case "please" in clause terminal position also takes antecedent punctuation separation. Two independent clauses joined by a comma is a comma splice, a fused sentence, a run-on.
Dialogue given in an absence of prior scene development comes from a disembodied voice. Also, irrespective of narrative point of view, tagged direct speech occasion missed to name Ibnu. //". . . here, please," Ibnu said.// That latter also points out a disorganized sequence, First substantial action attaches to a viewpoint protagonist. Ibnu speaks, ostensibly, only to name Uri for reader's sakes, first substantial action.
"he was checking in." Unnecessary tense shift.
"'. . . here, Ibnu,' he shouted out the door of the stockroom[,] 'can'" A period and capped //Can// wanted instead of the comma splice error for best practice dialogue punctuation. Misplaced action tag "he shouted out the door of the stockroom". Action tag speech attribution best practice precedes speech, albeit middle and terminal action tags might attend dialogue, too, in addition to an initial action tag. More robust action wanted, also.
"bit shorter" Empty modifier "bit"; is or isn't shorter. And why does that matter? "So what?" * Why should I care?
"among the Falderi, but" Unnecessary contradiction conjunction "but." Clauses separated for standalone sentences wanted, regardless.
"snowy skin so pale it was translucent around the edges" Tautology glitch: "snowy" and "pale." Repetition wants amplification rather than simple hyponym substitution. "it", empty pronoun use akin to an epithet, occasion also missed for amplification. "translucent around the edges"? "Huh?" "This doesn't make any sense." * Translucent peripheral extremities maybe. Example: //snowy skin so translucent his extremities vanished under shaded light//.
"Olanderiam; a loose" Takes a colon, not the semicolon.
"or grey[#](white" Typo error, missed word space. "grey," preferred British Commonwealth dialect variant; //gray//, preferred U.S. dialect variant.
"white, black[,] or grey" Discretionary serial comma missed. Journalism digest, no; prose digest, yes.
An overall "Oh Yeah?" * too. This altogether pleasant boss-laborer exchange is for real?
* From Orson Scott Card's "The Three Questions Readers Ask," pages 19 and 20 of Characters and Viewpoint.
The title's evocation of late Golden Age science fiction a sole, too limited standout of the fragment. An otherwise routine may be about to be interrupted start shape, maybe not, nor a bridge complication-conflict scene start, not a fare-thee-well's hint of social commentary nor a tone's attitude about a social issue. Too much routine and pleasantry and too little cued or actual drama to excite me to read further as an engaged reader.
posted
I am not engaged as a reader. There are three reasons for this: the first two being easy to explain, the third a little more complicated.
Personally, if the first thing I see is a quotation mark, I switch off immediately. Why? I’m expecting either a quotation, which is so passé nowadays, or it’s going to be dialogue between people who are complete strangers to me. Why should I care, why would I be interested? I want to be invited into the story, not dumped into the middle of something I know nothing about.
Second: Right at the outset you start by showcasing how well you’ve built your imaginary world. A fashion run-down and cultural summary? Not for me. As I read it, I am left wondering if you are going to tell me a riveting story that will keep me on the edge of my seat; or will you keep interrupting the narrative to show, and tell me, how much effort you’ve put into your world building? To show me how clever you are?
The third reason? This is where things get complicated for an author. The conventional wisdom at this time is a story should start with a routine interrupted, the introduction of conflict which escalates into the dramatic inciting incident. The reason? To get the hero moving and to keep the reader engaged.
That’s all well and good, except there is an inherent problem with such an immediate dive into the main dramatic narrative. We know nothing about the character: why should we care, how can we invest in the guy’s problems? We know nothing about the dramatic want; so again, why should we care?
And that’s the problem starting a story. Engage the reader and get the character moving. Quickly. But does the thing that gets the character moving need to be the main dramatic problem? Not to my way of thinking. In a short story you have limited opportunity to create a rapport between reader and character. It’s doable, but difficult. In a novel there is more time available to get the reader to invest in the character’s problem(s) and get to know, and hopefully, like them. Get the character moving, any way you can, but it doesn't have to be the main dramatic want and need.
I know this is not what you wanted to hear, sorry. But I hope my observations prove useful.
posted
Thanks for your thoughtful comment, Grumpy. I see where you are coming from and had some concerns along those lines for this opening, and so I am going to post a different version, achieved by moving some paragraphs around from just a little later in the story, to see if it makes for a more interesting opening.
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posted
I am not a detail person, at all, so definitely the second version for me. I keep reading the second version, I'm intrigued.
I am used to starting books not knowing what is happening. The first sentence sets urgency and tells me the main character (assuming Uri) is the main character). The "please" says something about the shopkeeper. In 13 lines, I get an interesting premise, and you are promising me I think a different look at things. I am hoping for a unique, interesting book.
I was bothered, somewhat seriously, by "At the sound of his employer’s voice," I think the main problem is redundancy -- I already imagined the voice. Or you are turning back the scene clock to retell the story.
"Employer" (at the end) sounds too abstract or modern for this book. (Or something from Uri's perspective?) Why not just use his name? Or "owner"?
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posted
Again, I am not engaged as a reader. Issues one and three of my original critique are still applicable for me.
I wonder if you are starting your story too early. This current fragment reads to me as a set-up. A setting out of information regarding a meeting soon to occur. Is this necessary?
In my opinion you would create a much more powerful and dynamic opening by starting the story with the stranger entering the shop. The potential for tension and immediate conflict is much higher. In addition, rather than telling us about the impending relationship with the stranger, you can show us through their interactions.
posted
Emma, thank you for your thoughts, I'm going to have a look at both of the things you mention.
Grumpy, I so deeply appreciate you adding things like "for me" and "in my opinion" to your statements-there was a time when I thought constructive criticism was a lost art. It always does my heart good when someone acknowledges that we, as storytellers, work in the realm of the subjective, not of absolutes.
I totally see what you are saying, but I tend to favor the old fashioned notion that the beginning of a story often exists to provide setup. I want to establish some things about Uri as a person and his people as a people before I bring the stranger in. I'm not the highest-tension writer in the world (at least in many cases) and I'm okay with that, but I super appreciate your input.
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posted
I am late to this party but I think both have good qualities and poor ones. Combine the first sentence with the second. I like the lack of an identifier of the speaker with the first. And I like the explanation of the problem in the second. You spend too much time on the employer in the first. But I am not sure about "He was a bit shorter..." sentence. You got two was-s in it for one thing.
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quote: I totally see what you are saying, but I tend to favor the old fashioned notion that the beginning of a story often exists to provide setup. I want to establish some things about Uri as a person and his people as a people before I bring the stranger in.
I hear what you’re saying, MerlionEmrys, but consider this: what you may find important, riveting and necessary, your readers may not.
Have you ever noticed that a story you are enjoying reading suddenly comes to a ‘flat spot’; a place where you begin to skim the pages because what the writer is telling you isn’t necessary to understand the story and isn’t moving the plot forward. So you skip those pages and the story goes on, none the worse for wear.
My advice to any writer, no matter their experience, is to only include the information necessary for the reader to understand the scene they are currently in; let the future tend to itself.
So I’ll ask you the same question I asked earlier: is the information you want to include necessary for your reader to understand the scene, or are you simply including it because you think the reader will enjoy the added depth and colour?
I’ll let you into a little secret: they (the readers) don’t give a toss about your world building, they just want a good story that unfolds like the petals of a rose.
posted
I'd add that all worthy prose portrays a contest per each narrative, or, actually, two simultaneous contests per each: one overt and straightforward contest drama, one congruent-opposite subtext contest drama. An artful start introduces both contests as one and the same and more.
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quote: I hear what you’re saying, MerlionEmrys, but consider this: what you may find important, riveting and necessary, your readers may not.
But see, I am a reader-a lifelong one. One of the major things guiding me as a writer is my own taste. I daresay that for most of us, at least one of the many reasons we start writing is to create stories that we ourselves would like. And since I have no delusions of being totally unique in the world, I figure that there are at least a good few others out there with tastes similar to my own (supported by the fact that there is plenty of published stuff out there that fits my taste.)
quote: Have you ever noticed that a story you are enjoying reading suddenly comes to a ‘flat spot’; a place where you begin to skim the pages because what the writer is telling you isn’t necessary to understand the story and isn’t moving the plot forward. So you skip those pages and the story goes on, none the worse for wear.
Not all stories are primarily about plot. I am familiar with the effect you describe but, because people have different tastes, my flat spots may be different than yours. In some stories, the plot may be the flat spot, because the story is really about character interaction or atmosphere or whatever.
This story is not an action adventure. It is primarily about people's views and attitudes (the Falderi and their prejudices and overly rigid laws) and secondarily about the relationship between Uri and the stranger (Tamaryn.) Now, this is irrelevant to whether you like or dislike this opening and the things I am saying are not a "defense" of my work, but simply an acknowledgement of the fact that there are different types of stories and styles of writing, and people have different tastes. Generally speaking I have a very clear idea of what I want to do with a story, and my goal in seeking feedback is to try and make a given piece the most effective version of what I want it to be that I can, not to change its nature.
quote: I’ll let you into a little secret: they (the readers)
Please excuse me if I am incorrect, but you seem to speak of readers as if they are a uniform breed. They are not. Just as you mention in my other thread that modern fantasy is not a genre you care to partake of as a reader, other readers have other preferences in terms of genre, style, pacing, focus etc. Nothing anyone writes is going to appeal to all readers. And though I do wish to be published, and have been, I realize that all stories are not for all readers or markets and so I write the story I wish to tell and then find an audience for it (and there is in my experience at least some audience for everything.)
quote: don’t give a toss about your world building,
In the current context this seems like a pretty strange statement, but before I go into why I want to preface it by saying I don't actually do a whole lot of world building (at least as I think of it) in this story, and the bit about the Falderi's appearance and dress was mostly thrown in for flavor...which is why I moved it out of the first 13 in the second version. As far as I know, readers of fantasy, especially secondary-world high fantasy care very much about world building-indeed, it's one of the genre's hallmarks. Many currently highly popular authors, like Brandon Sanderson and Brent Weeks spend a great deal of effort on world building (and on making their world building obviously different from "standard" Tolkienesque high fantasy) and, for example, one of the few things I don't like about the Harry Potter series (which in a lot of ways is mystery writing with fantasy window dressing) is the lack of certain aspects of world building that I and in my experience many readers of fantasy value (such as how the magic works, where it comes from, why some people are wizards and some aren't and what that means, the nature and origins of the separation of the worlds etc.)
quote: they just want a good story that unfolds like the petals of a rose.
People want a lot of things from a story...and some stories, by their nature, are going to deliver some of those things but be unable to deliver others. Plot is a weakness for me and something I greatly admire in other writers who have it as a strength (such as Rowling) but there are many stories I love dearly in which plot is a lesser or absent element and are great because of their characters, or atmosphere, or style or the ideas presented therein.
And most of all, no story is going to be loved by everyone and so I tell the stories I want to tell and seek help in polishing them into the "best" versions of themselves they can be. I appreciate your help in that and am enjoying this conversation very much (I've had many like it here, but I've been gone a long time and recent events in my life have left me with a strong desire to reconnect with the familiar, so I am grateful for you helping me do that as well.)
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posted
It would appear I am a stick in the mud; and anachronism from times long past when what constituted a story was a given: needing no explanation.
I am a dramatist; and at times a tragedian. All of my stories involve getting the main character to move, and in moving, create tension which initiates conflict, thus ensuring change and growth in the character. But at a cost; always at a cost. And, in tragedy, the hero either loses; but for the greater good, or wins; at the cost of the ultimate price: a noble death.
quote: Not all stories are primarily about plot. I am familiar with the effect you describe but, because people have different tastes, my flat spots may be different than yours. In some stories, the plot may be the flat spot, because the story is really about character interaction or atmosphere or whatever.
For me, a story is ultimately about character; a character in turmoil with their inner human foibles and frailties; a character who, through force of facing a crucible, changes and grows. Plot is secondary; but just as important, and always present.
Far be it for me to try and get you to write a story you don't want to write. You are the captain of your creative soul and I support anything you want to attempt. However, the type of stories you are advocating are ones I can offer no advice on.
I wouldn't say that. You just like what you like. I myself have pretty broad taste and I always try to recognize the artistry even in works I don't care for. I'm also just not that big on labels and designations. They can be quite interesting and sometimes useful as shorthand, but ultimately are of limited utility when dealing with the subjective (which all art is.)
quote: times long past when what constituted a story was a given: needing no explanation.
Any narrative is a story and will, albeit only by logical necessity have a beginning, middle and end (but only in the most technical sense, absolutely). Beyond that there are-and more or less always have been-many many types, genres, forms, structures and styles of stories. Campfire yarns, fairy tales, operas, novels, narrative poems, dramas, tragedies, comedies, character studies, slice of life pieces, idea stories, surrealist, stream-of-consciousness dream narratives, screenplays, flash fiction, epics, ballads, satires, dystopias, past tense, present tense, first, second and a couple dozen different versions and levels of 3rd person, three acts, four acts, five acts, MICE quotients and various other stuff I can't remember just now.
quote: For me, a story is ultimately about character; a character in turmoil with their inner human foibles and frailties; a character who, through force of facing a crucible, changes and grows. Plot is secondary; but just as important, and always present.
All you're really saying here is the type of story you like/relate to...which is usually what people mean when they talk about what a story "is" or "is about"...and with which I have no problem. I just tend to define my tastes in terms of dislikes, rather than requirements.
quote: However, the type of stories you are advocating are ones I can offer no advice on.
I'm not sure what you mean. I advocate (seems like a slightly odd word in this context but I'm going with it) all types of stories (and indeed all types of artistic expression, all of which I believe, in my deepest heart, are forms of storytelling). Now, if all you're saying is you don't feel comfortable critting stories outside of the specific sort you mention above, I can understand that too a point-I wouldn't be terribly comfortable critting, say, a Tom Clancy espionage type deal for example. But I would still try...and I think both of these I've posted so far are things you could offer useful feedback on, though some of what I write might be too far outside of your stated comfort zone. The "Ben and Jenny" story, for example, is very much a character story. This one is too, to an extent, but the characters are also largely vehicles for exploring particular attitudes-it is somewhat of a fable.
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posted
I'm going to need a little time to decide if I should respond. There are two issues at play here: first, I've recently resumed my medication for a neurological disorder; medication which plays havoc with my synapses pathways (which is terribly interesting to observe as likes/dislikes/obsessions and a whole host of identity related issues change and evolve. And also is the spark for my ability to write; on the medication I can write a 100,000 word novel in a month, off the medication, I can't write a letter that would cover a postage stamp.) and, second, having been down this pathway before, I know it will be a waste of time for me to try and change your views on rules etc., and also knowing I will never subscribe to your more (apparently) Laissez-faire approach.
quote: However, the type of stories you are advocating are ones I can offer no advice on.
I'm not sure what you mean. I advocate (seems like a slightly odd word in this context but I'm going with it) all types of stories (and indeed all types of artistic expression, all of which I believe, in my deepest heart, are forms of storytelling). Now, if all you're saying is you don't feel comfortable critting stories outside of the specific sort you mention above, I can understand that too a point-I wouldn't be terribly comfortable critting, say, a Tom Clancy espionage type deal for example
Yes, an unfortunate choice of term, applicable, but with too many unsavory connotations. What I meant to say is that erotic fiction, no matter it's orientation, does not 'do it' for me. The closest I came was John Norman's Gor series; and I found the BDSM aspects an annoyance in an otherwise rollicking tale.
Don't take this personally if I don't respond in detail, as I said, I consider it a zero-sum proposition. But that doesn't mean I won't critique other submissions, such as your most recent, which I found suited my 'style' better than the others.
Cheers.
Phil.
[ November 14, 2018, 04:25 AM: Message edited by: Grumpy old guy ]
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quote: I'm going to need a little time to decide if I should respond. There are two issues at play here: first, I've recently resumed my medication for a neurological disorder; medication which plays havoc with my synapses pathways (which is terribly interesting to observe as likes/dislikes/obsessions and a whole host of identity related issues change and evolve. And also is the spark for my ability to write; on the medication I can write a 100,000 word novel in a month, off the medication, I can't write a letter that would cover a postage stamp.)
I totally understand. While not exactly the same thing, I was in a 12 year relationship with a person who had both organic and purely psychological issues and participated in his quest to find the right medication(s), so I'm familiar with how wacky it can be (and of course all writers are a little off anyway.)
quote: and also knowing I will never subscribe to your more (apparently) Laissez-faire approach.
Now let me just be clear here, I have absolutely no desire to change your approach to writing. The only thing I have a slight issue with (and you are of course totally entitled to it regardless) is statements like "No publishing house would accept it" because that gives forth the idea that everyone must follow the same rules as you (or whatever) if they wish to get anywhere as a writer, and that's just not the case. In my experience, many aspiring writers are already overly timid about writing, submitting, etc, feeling that there work isn't "good enough" or worrying when they have an idea or an element of their style that goes against the "rules" etc, so as an advocate of creativity, I tend to respond as you've seen (or in some cases rather more...strongly) to things like that. That's probably not even your intent, but I just want to be clear that I'm not trying to tell you how you should write, just putting forth that other peoples styles, forms, structures etc etc etc are just as viable creatively and professionally.
Also, I'm all for learning the "rules", but as many giants of the industry have said, directly or indirectly, you often learn them so you can learn how to break (or use-rules=tools) them.
It's all subjective, at the end of the day (and at the beginning of the day, for the matter of that.)
quote: Yes, an unfortunate choice of term, applicable, but with too many unsavory connotations. What I meant to say is that erotic fiction, no matter it's orientation, does not 'do it' for me.
Is that what you meant when you said "Ben and Jenny" was in a genre you had no appetite for? I thought you were referring to modern/urban fantasy. If that's the case, then it's clarification time again. "Ben and Jenny" is definitely not erotica, not by a longshot. When I used the term "bawdy" in the post I was being very specific-there's some risque humor and what I hope is a realistic portrayal of several free-spirited people who are very much in love with (and very attracted to) each other, but it isn't even close to erotica, just for the record. The "bawdy warning" was in the interest of full disclosure, for those (like my late mother for example) who are offended by anything remotely risque (especially if it is of an orientation outside their own.)
Anyway, based on what you've said about your tastes, I think this story("Star Swallower") is probably the one of the three you'd like best. If you're up for it, I'd really love somebody to do a full read on it and I'm quite happy to return the favor. But whatever the case, I appreciate your conversation and input quite much.
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posted
I don't know much about writing, but I do know that I like the second version a LOT better. Describing outfits/appearances right off the bat is a major turn-off for me. In fact, I must confess I skimmed that part and went to the second version to see if it was better. And it was. A LOT better.
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