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I'm pretty sure that many writers on this site have visited other writing sites. Some writers on these sites post complete chapters of their WIP looking for feedback on their story. I was thinking about it, but wasn't sure about posting complete chapters concerning a novel you were currently working on. I was wondering what the pro's and con's might be. Any feedback on the subject is appreciated.
Posts: 76 | Registered: Apr 2008
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I belong to another forum--a closed one. Only members can even see posts. It's also a small group, almost like having an in-person writers' group. I do post chapters there for feedback. So do the other members.
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The con of most concern is that a publisher might follow a writing site's posts and conclude a posting constitutes first publication. First rights might be consumed. On the other hand, if a narrative meets writing expectations in terms of appeal, voice, craft, style, a publisher would want to sew up publication rights regardless. As in all things writing, the caliber of the writing matters, first, foremost, and last. However, closed access sites requiring password login prevent expenditure of rights.
Other cons: a smaller sample is more inviting for response commentary, a smaller sample is amenable to more detailed commentary, a limited response audience is easier to garner specific insights from; than larger samples or broader audiences.
At one extreme, say, Hatrack's thirteen lines limitation, style issues may generally be taken as consistent throughout a narrative. That's been my experience, same with craft, voice, and appeal.
That limitation also allows for more detailed commentary, such that all four broad picture areas: appeal, voice, craft, style may be addressed.
Limiting posting sites allows for focus on discrete areas, such that revision focus permits a writer to determine which points to implement readily. A consequence of too much information might be a "committee" monster that indulges every point and in turn satisfies none. On the other hand, broader posting allows for a larger sampling of writing responses, of writing opinions, and for broader audience focus group testing, possibly develops an audience for the finished product. Not to mention, broader posting encourages wider viewpoints.
Any given writing site may tend to focus narrowly on areas or principles that another site might focus on different ones. This is the bandwagon bias effect in practice. For example, a principle of fantastical fiction (science fiction, fantasy, horror) is that a signal a narrative is indeed fantastical fiction must be placed on the first page. A mystery or romance site, for example, will not emphasize that principle, though will emphasize conventions unique to the convention-based genre of the site's genre priority.
Frankly, Hatrack has a significantly broad sampling of all a writer might benefit from, in my estimation, broader and more focused than other sites I've sampled.
Many of those sites are leagues behind Hatrack's broadness and focus, years behind in areas like voice and appeal factors, and genre conventions. Part of Hatrack's advantage in that regard is a direct consequence of the thirteen lines principle: limited fragment samples encourage broader participation and narrowed focus.
extrinsic, I know I need help in all aspects of my writing, but I would need to live as long as Moses and then just maybe I will have mastered the art of writing.
Realistically, my bones will be dust long before I master writing. Come hell or high water though, I will get the story down. Then just maybe someone will read the story and realize the story is worth helping to clean it up. I've always been a big believer in the saying. I would rather have half a pie than no pie at all. Who knows stranger things have happened. Like me trying to write, for one.
Posts: 76 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Consider that writing texts in many cases are summations of any given writer's entire writing life study. Writers of now have the opportunity to stand on the shoulders of writers who came before. I mention Aristotle frequently, one whose shoulders many writers stand upon, know it or not.
Writing study is hard work, hard enough without reinventing the wheel at every turn. Of course, I was resistantly insistent that I could find my own way on my own initiative. I still hold that sentiment; however, it's been transformed to one of finding my own way into untread territories influenced by writers who broke trail, made roads and interstates, railways, skyways, and spaceways up front before.
One principle of note for an ambitious writer struggling with fundamentals, pick your poison, choose a narrowly defined field of endeavour that's inherently more manageable than the opus or even a broad canon. Like, say, specific to physical science science fiction, in a niche subgenre, say, other world colonization, with plot emphasis, and age category like young adult, plus narrative point of view--third person limited to one viewpoint agonist and that agonist's thoughts, for example. Narrowing focus is a composition method for expository writing; applied to writing direction, a useful aid for focusing writing study. What's your poison? Define it as narrowly as possible. Then study the genre and writers of the genre and their writing texts. Some research is warranted.
Writing critique benefits critiquer more than writer of critiqued work. Guidances offered are easily off the mark, for one, and often use expression that's as inaccessible as what it intends to critique, as well many critiquers are not well-versed in the conventions they presume to critique, let alone style, craft, voice, and appeal shortcomings.
The ideal for a narrative is to express intent clearly and strongly such that critiquers, and readers especially, at least understand, if not fully appreciate an entire narrative and all its parts. That is rare even in blockbuster published works by master writers. They don't spend time writing critique responses at online writing sites, though. They publish their findings and such in writing texts.
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extrinsic, I think I understand what you're saying about narrative. Hypothetically, if in my story I was to indicate a dragon was a mammal and not a reptile as many readers believe, then as narrator I must explain why in a strong and clear, even plausible way as to make the reader say to themselves, I never really thought of a dragon in that way before.
Then again I could be completely missing the point about what you're trying to tell me.
It wouldn't be the first time information given, has gone over my head.
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My main point is why reinvent the wheel learning how to write prose on one's own, when many writing texts from which to learn are available that give writers a head start, and possibly suggest new directions to explore.
Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Craig: Hypothetically, if in my story I was to indicate a dragon was a mammal and not a reptile as many readers believe, then as narrator I must explain why in a strong and clear, even plausible way as to make the reader say to themselves, I never really thought of a dragon in that way before.
Then again I could be completely missing the point about what you're trying to tell me.
Well, that's a very good point to understand, whether it was extrinsic's point or not.
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I think I felt a slight disturbance with my hair as your point zoomed by. Now that you've led this horse to the trough, I think I'll drink.
Along your journey to becoming a writer, did you happen to come across any easy to understand texts concerning the writing of prose? I stress the words, easy to understand. I'm still trying to roll over when it comes to writing. You're running marathons.
If you can suggest a text though, I'll check it out. ----------------------------------------------------------------
Kathleen, I'd be lying if I said I understood your post upon first read. In the end though, your post smacked me right in the forehead.
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A wheel is a flanking maneuver, one way to come at writing's more esoteric challenges, sideways, so to speak.
Comparatively easy to read writing texts:
Damon Knight Creating Short Fiction though titled for short stories, all the points Knight discusses apply as well to long fiction. Knight's is the more writing topic comprehensive of this list.
Algis Budrys Writing to the Point.
Hatrack's host Orson Scott Card's Characters and Viewpoint and How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy.
The above three are science fiction writers, at some time taught writing at various writing workshops and university writing programs, writing award winners, and stalwarts in the science fiction field as editors, judges, and publishers.
Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008
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Orson Scott Card's How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy.
It's straightforward and easy to read. Unlike some How To Write books, it's not boring. It points out all sorts of stuff that will seem obvious now that it's laid out, but that you might not have considered before. I drag it out for rereading occasionally, as I consider it a good general refresher course.
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quote:Originally posted by r33fking: Nice list. Thanks Extrinsic!
Great! Enjoy reading them. One point, even these four I read time and again. Knight's took me six times to get the full gist. Of course, having read many others, more challenging other writing texts, these four became clearer and easier to understand. Those other texts, though, I wouldn't have been able to understand without having read these beforehand and again afterward.
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Thanks extrinsic, Looks like I'll be investing in a copy of Orson Scott Card's How to Write Science Fiction and FantasyPosts: 76 | Registered: Apr 2008
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At the moment I'm perusing Mugging the Muse by Holly Lisle. It has some good exercises for the Stuck, and to use as Extrapolation Generators.
Posts: 782 | Registered: Dec 2010
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I have found that there is quite a bit of instructional material available that covers story construction, using various formula and structure. But, much less that covers constructing smooth, beautiful prose. I keep finding myself staring blankly at my thesaurus, struggling to find the right words to tie together my descriptions or metaphor. I think my problem stems from my approach. Any recommendations?
I suppose this post should have gone in its own thread. It really has nothing to do with the pros and cons of posting.
Posts: 18 | Registered: Jul 2014
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Beautiful--artful--prose begins with grammar and slides into rhetoric. Grammatically well-crafted prose is smooth when smooth is warranted and otherwise when emphasis is warranted. Consider putting aside the thesaurus and picking up a grammar handbook. Also, well-worth the investment is Noah Lukeman's A Dash of Style, the artful use of punctuation for emphasis. More, too, how clause and sentence construction work with punctuation to build artful prose.
Not as critique, though to illustrate, this sentence could be stronger and clearer with a more deft application of grammar: "I keep finding myself staring blankly at my thesaurus, struggling to find the right words to tie together my descriptions or metaphor."
Complex sentence, three present participle verbs, two infinitive verbs (tense inconsistency), inverted adverb-verb (staring blankly), main clause in preface position, inverted syntax--up-front emphasis--dependent clause in emphasis position. Recast to illustrate: //Blank stares at my thesaurus--I struggle for words that tie together my descriptions and metaphor.//
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I have found that studying poetry will help lend a lyric quality to narrative prose and dialogue. The trick is not to load the prose with simile and metaphor but to choose words and structures that evoke an emotional response from readers. The more subtly this is done, the better as far as I'm concerned.
quote:Originally posted by r33fking: I have found that there is quite a bit of instructional material available that covers story construction, using various formula and structure. But, much less that covers constructing smooth, beautiful prose. I keep finding myself staring blankly at my thesaurus, struggling to find the right words to tie together my descriptions or metaphor. I think my problem stems from my approach. Any recommendations?
I suppose this post should have gone in its own thread. It really has nothing to do with the pros and cons of posting.
What I recommend is that you just get it down without worrying about the right words. Sometimes the smoothest prose is what you come up with in the first place.
And don't worry about putting this in its own thread--that's always nice, but topics do tend to veer around a little anyway.
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quote:Originally posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury:
What I recommend is that you just get it down without worrying about the right words. Sometimes the smoothest prose is what you come up with in the first place.
This. What you puked onto the page on the first attempt may be how the story needs to be. Don't assume that because it hasn't been altered (edited, rewritten, hacked-and-slashed), it's necessarily no good.
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Once the gist of one or more of the above writing texts comes to fruition, a dynamic text about some of the more exotic writing principles, after a comprehensive grammar handbook, is Seymour Chatman's Story and Discourse.
Chatman's work discusses craft principles as well as principles of narrative methods; for example, overt narrator, covert narrator, issues of event, setting, and characterization, syntax and diction, stream of consciousness techniques, narrative distance, and rarefied principles emotional, aesthethic, and intellectual distances. In other words, reader effect. Wayne Booth's The Rhetoric of Fiction delves more deeply into reader effect, though is among the more inaccessible writing texts, up there with Gustav Freytag's Technique of the Drama and ]i]The Poetics of Aristotle[/i].
John Garnder's The Art of Fiction is the more common writing textbook for university creative writing fiction coursework. Gardner uses the term psychic distance to encompass narrative, emotional, aesthethic, and intellectual distances, though more specifically, psychic distance is depth of access to character thoughts, discussed in Knight's Creating Short Fiction. I think Gardner has its points though it is not on my suggested recommended reading list.
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