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arriki
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We're going to give it a try.
There's just the two of us, Satate and myself, at the moment.

We're starting with Morrell's book, BETWEEN THE LINES: master the subtle elements of fiction writing.

It's remaindered. Copies are available cheap on the used book site -- abebooks.com


The first topic we're going to look for published examples of is -- BACKSTORY. The book lists four reasons for backstory and six "vehicles" or methods to put backstory in stories.

Heigh ho, heigh ho it's off to work we go.

New members are always welcome.

Annepin and Patrack James have joined the email group.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited November 02, 2008).]


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arriki
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Here is a backstory that I really admire. It gives us all we really need to know about the character. It’s from the movie PRETTY WOMAN. Yes, it’s screenwriting, but this could have been written in a novel, too.

---------------------------------------
My father’s family was wealthy. When I was young there were cars and houses, private schools, nannies. But then my father divorced my mother to marry another woman. And he took his money with him.

Keep talkin’.

Not much to tell.

I went to public schools. Went to university on a scholarship. Went to work for an investment firm. In eight years I owned it.

My father was the chairman of the board of the third company I ever went after. I swallowed that company and **** out the pieces. One of the pieces was him.

You still mad at him?

He died a long time ago.

-----------------------------------
Let's see. The vehicle is dialogue.

The reason for the backstory is "revealing motivations"???

I think so. It's certainly not "expressing innermost fears" nor "revealing obstacles." And I don't think it is "raising the stakes" although I'm not quite sure. I cannot recall the circumstances surrounding this heart-to-heart little moment.


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Patrick James
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Good thread here, arriki.

I don't have anythng to add, I'd just like to see more dissections of backstories and whatever else you come up with. Sounds helpful and interesting.


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arriki
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A lot of it is going to have to be in email. It's that 13 line limitation. I understand and agree with it in principle, but it kind of hamstrings me for studying. So -- we'll do a lot of the "researching" and looking over examples there. When something is short enough, I'll try to post it here.

You're welcome to join. There isn't much going on right now though.

Think about backstory and those four reasons and six vehicles.
What do you see in the PRETTY WOMAN one I posted?

Neat? Or do you see some flaws? Ways to do it better?
How might you have handled this is a story?


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arriki
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Hmm...this is character A telling character B his backstory.
A variation on this dialogue if for B and C to be talking about A's backstory.

Can anyone locate a prime example of that?

AND...this backstory from PRETTY WOMAN -- it's a string of points? Incidents rendered down to simple phrases. I'm always asking for specifics. Are these?

wealthy -- cars houses private schools nannies
went to public schools
a scholarship to a (we assume a state) university
work at an investment firm

Yet, would we have learned anything more if the writer had put specifics in his speech?


went to PS 169
a scholarship to Ohio State
work at Ross, Bach and Jovanovich in Philadelphia

Wouldn't the additional detail have ruined the tight flow of information the reader would be using to build a picture of this guy's past?
So, when is the extra detail a good idea?

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited October 30, 2008).]


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Patrick James
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This is so much more interesting, and infinitely more helpful than the stuff I have been posting lately.

I wouldn't mind joining the study group. I'll have to find that book. I wouldn't mind if you e-mailed me anything interesting you came up with on writing technique(particularly pertaining to vehicles of storytelling.).

[This message has been edited by Patrick James (edited October 30, 2008).]


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arriki
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I sent you and satate some possible examples to look at.

If you do buy the book, go abebooks.com and get a used copy. So much cheaper.

What I'm doing now is trying to find any examples of backstory for us to look at and decide if it indeed backstory and not some other form of narrative info dropping. And also, what kind and purpose?

I'd like to find at least 10 examples of each kind and purpose before we move on to another topic. Backstory is so important and I would like to feel I have a better handle on spotting it and utilizing it in my own writing. That story about Cory -- one of its weak points is my handling cory's backstory. I'm working on that now, but it's almost hit and miss because of my weakness in composing and inserting backstory. Don't you guys think?

can anyone think of a flashback that isn't/wasn't backstory?

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited October 30, 2008).]


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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Can I offer an example that is basically back story all through the book?

Well, whether I can or not, I'm gonna.

In Tony Hillerman's THE GHOST WAY, Jim Chee has to go to Los Angeles as part of the novel's investigation. While he is traveling around, going from place to place, asking the questions he needs to ask, Hillerman has him thinking about the back story--his non-Navajo girlfriend, Mary, wants him to give up his job as a cop on the reservation and his dreams of becoming a medicine man so that he can join the FBI and live in her world when they marry.

He chews on this problem throughout the book, at the same time he is chewing on the case he is investigating. We never meet Mary, never see her. All we get are Jim's thoughts about her as he's going along.

I think it's a great example of providing back story.


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Patrick James
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Sounds like this book provides many examples of backstorytelling. I have read stories like what I think you are discribing. Two stories being told simultaneously, one of the mans past--say a three years ago--and one of his present. The former to justify, or display the characters motives for what he is doing now. Both end at the same time and tie in somehow. But for a short story it sounds longwinded.

The recap you gave, Kathleen, is probably all that could be fit in a short story. I think prime examples of backstory in short story form, will also be helpful.


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satate
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That book sounds interesting. I think I may pick it up and give it read.
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satate
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As to the Pretty Woman post and the added detail, I do think the extra detail would take away. It isn't needed and the converstaion feels more natural without it. In the story she wouldn't be interested in exactly which elementay school he went to because it doesn't matter. The fact that it is a public school rather than private is enough. The same with the other.

I'm going to start looking for examples of back story. If they are short enough I'll post it, otherwise I'll e-mail you.


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arriki
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Good, good, good, satate. This won't work if I do all the work.

Great example Kathleen. I'll see if the library has a copy while I'm out today. It may be a gold mine of examples of different ways of presenting backstory.

To understand it thoroughly we need to see how many authors handle backstory. How they are different and how they are the same.


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arriki
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One way backstory -- I think it's backstory, or could be judged such -- shows up in short stories is when you have a frame story. The frame is present, the story it frames happened in the past and explains an action in the present frame story.

Hmm...that seems a kind of non-regular backstory. An oddity to add to our notes.

I guess you'll have to trust me on having seen one since the example encompasses too much text. What I was remembering was a story in F&SF several years ago by Michael Swanwick. Can't recall the title. It's somewhere in my notes. I'll try to remember to look it up later.


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arriki
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Another movie example. I don’t have the words. I’ll try to get them but CASABLANCA!

There are two examples of backstory in them.

The first is the conversation (dialogue again) between Rick and Captain _____. Captain __says Rick is a romantic. Rick denies that. Then the Captain reminds him of two incidents in Rick’s past. One, where he ran guns in Ethiopia and two, when he fought on the royalists’ side in Spain. Rick explains that both paid him very well. The Captain counters that in both cases the other side would have paid him much better.

The second example of backstory is when Rick sits drinking and thinks back over his past with Ilsa. We have a full blown flashback type of backstory as we watch him enjoying being with Ilsa ending with her abandoning him when they were supposed to leave on the train to escape the Nazis entering Paris.

Without these two bits of background we would not understand Rick’s actions. That he has a past of being a fighter for the good cause helps us understand why he would give up Ilsa and why he reacts to the name Victor Lazlo when the Captain mentions he is in Casablanca and must remain there. Why he would be willing to give up the love of his life to Lazlo. The view of his time with Ilsa shows us how much he loved her, why her abandonment hurt him so much that he became this cynical café owner who won’t risk himself for anyone.

Both insights came into the movie after we’ve seen the actions on screen that they explain. Not before.

Comments, guys?

And I thought of another movie filled with bits of backstory – REBECCA. Oh, that was a book. My mother had a copy. It must be around here somewhere.


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Patrick James
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Being the film buff I am I know the part of Casablanca you refer to. It seemed very effective in storytelling. Then why do all critiquers insist that you must show the characters motives before the action? If you did where is the suspense, the tension? You know what the MC is going to do. On the other hand this is where books and movies seperate. Movies can show you what they want, in the order they want to make it most interesting. However, books seem to be constrained by tight POV. To get involved in a book the author try's to make you get in the head of the MC. You know everythng he knows. I was dissappointed greatly by a book and a movie that broke POV. I'll print the spoiler below.

As to pretty woman and added detail. I do believe a stream-lined backstory held over dialogue is best, often flashbacks are used instead, but flashbaks can be cliche far too easily. I would like to point out that an extra detail or two could be effective in storytelling, if they are poignant.

(Take Pretty Woman to Star wars universe.)Best I could think of, sorry for this lame example:
Character B asks character A, "Which school?"

He answers. "Aldaraan."

Both characters go silent.

Enough said. A huge chunk of backstory I think would have been dropped.

For those not familiar with Star Wars, Aldaraan was the planet blown up in the first hour of episode IV(The first one made cicra 1979).

Of course, 'which' school for Richard Gere would have been unimportant. Unless he was present at one of a number of famous shootings.

Spoiler
*****************************

The book was by Timothy Zahn, I think the title was Icarus Hunt. I don't remember it too well. I believe the story was written in first person. You know everything the MC knows or even thinks. The MC is a freighter pilot who finds himself wrapped up in an interstellar plot when one of his crew dies. Everyone aboard is a supsect, except his trusty alien manservant.

The MC is crafty and scared for his life throughout book. Just when you think the situation is hopless for our friend, and the bad guys got him dead to rights, military star cruiers pop out of nowhere and hundreds of soldiers come to the MC's aid.

As it turns out the MC was a Captian in the interstellar CIA or whatever, not just a simple freighter jock, and his trusty manservant whom he ordered about and treated as sub-human was his superior officer. The reader knew everything the MC knew--his everythought. Or so we thought. Him being a military agent was an important piece of backstory and would have colored his thoughts and actions in every respect during the story.

The author was not honest. I felt cheated. It was a good book, though.

In the movie Fracture, with Anthony Hopkins, they start with tight POV. You see what Hopkins sees, unimportant stuff like him going to work and doing his job, and important stuff like him observe his wife with a secret lover, him kill his wife. You've seen everything he has done, leading up to the kill. Now the mystery part is how they catch/convict him. (Not unlike TV show Colombo's format.)

You wrack your brain trying to do that only to find out. Sorry, you didn't see everything like we made you think you did. Hopkins switched guns with his wifes boyfriend at the begining of the movie. The only thing omitted from Hopkins day on the day of the murder, also the only important thing in relation to the case.

They could have done this movie diferently. Movies don't have to follow POV. This one did, then violated my trust. Needless to say I felt cheated.


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arriki
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How does it work in CASABLANCA and not in Zahn's? Is it only a matter of pov? Or are there other factors?

I "feel" very strongly I need to keep secret Cory's first murder until Henner reveals it. I am adding in some hints that Cory HAS killed an "enemy" on the sly during the battle. He almost blurts out the secret to Lord John but realizes at the last moment that that is a bad idea.

I'm also adding a short flashback of Cory receiving the sword and his killing the sea raider leader. I think it comes after the first paragraph of his wandering, feeling lost? empty?

I am seeing how important to making a story deeper a coherent and vital backstory is.

Got to return to work. I'm going to ramble on about CASABLANCA more, later.


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arriki
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I don’t know where to start. With CASBLANCA, I guess.

I realized that there was a third important backstory – Ilsa’s. It follows quickly after Rick’s flashback backstory of the good times and her crashing desertion. Ilsa comes in to the darkened room. She begins her backstory – all dialogue in this case – and the audience has their emotion computers running. Lady, this better be good ‘cause you’ve hurt this man a lot. And she explains how she is Victor Lazlo’s wife and was his wife even when she and Rick were having those wonderful times back in Paris. She thought Lazlo was dead. Then, at the last minute just before she was to join Rick at the train station, she learns he’s alive!

My thought is that the audience computes all this. Yeah, she thought she was widow. As soon as she learns she’s not, she leaves Rick. She doesn’t want to hurt Lazlo by letting him know about her affair and if she explains all this to Rick, Rick might come to try and get her to leave Lazlo AND miss the train away from the Nazis who have a price on his head. So, she sends him a note saying goodbye but with no explanation.

Earlier in the movie there is a bit where someone says to Lazlo how they’d heard he died. Four times. Lazlo quips, it was true every time.

All this adds up to making the main story – Rick and Ilsa – work. They are sympathetic. She loves Lazlo but in a girl’s hero-worshipping way as she explains to Rick. We, the audience feel she loves Rick in a grownup, passionate woman way. Thus the backstory makes the main story both reasonable and tragic.

These three main bits of backstory are the foundation pillars on which the movie exists. Without them, it would not be a deep as it is. If you had to make those points within the realtime of the movie, could you? I guess you could, but this was an elegant way of making them.


Now, about determining what constitutes backstory—

Of the four Evanovich examples, it seems that only two might qualify as real backstories.
I’ve been reading THE GHOSTWAY and those parts about Mary don’t really seem to be backstory. Not anymore than the story in the framestory is. They are more some type of alternate storyline because they do not support the main story????

Help me out here. Just because it is a look into the past does not mean it has to be a backstory????

They seem to me to be introspection rather than summary, flashback, dream, or prologue. Now BETWEEN THE LINES (BTL) says that introspection requires a trigger. And “…the events or memory must be inherently dramatic or emotional, connected somehow to the present, and must illuminate the character and his motivations.” (page 31) His motivations in the present, can assume?

In Hillerman’s novel they do not seem to meet those requirements. They are more like a parallel story. Whereas the backstory of Stephanie Plum and Joe Morelli does fit that description better, right?

Remember, these are just Jessica Morrell's rules. We're free to make up our own. Still, she makes some good points.
As with the frame story I mentioned and Kathleen's suggestion of the Hillerman novel, there is a long continuum of text that could be "backstory." What I'd like to do is make "backstory" and its uses clearer in our minds.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited October 31, 2008).]


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arriki
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Patrick James and satate both have sent me emails with examples. I think I need to make a list of everyone who wants to be a part of our discussion there with examples longer than 13 lines so we all receive all the discussion.

There's me, arriki,
and
Patrick James
satate

annepin, you in?
anyone else at this point?

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited November 01, 2008).]


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arriki
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Interesting, Patrick. It seems we don’t know exactly what backstory is.

The murderer’s dialogue? flashback? from RED DRAGON – I think – qualifies. The detective speaking into his recorder, I’m not certain of.

If we go along with Morrell’s rules of distinction, I think the recording bit fails.

First, the villain’s nasty memory – yes. It reveals motivations, don’t we all agree?
Hmmm…I haven’t seen the movie, but I’ve read the original book. Want me to check it out of the library and post Harris’s text?

The recording scene. Does it reveal motivations? Express innermost fears? Reveal obstacles? Or, raise the stakes?

Reveal motivations and express innermost fears are comparatively easy to identify. It’s those last two I listed that are harder – for me at the moment.

Is it raising the stakes when this slaughter just happened realtime storywise? I mean, if the detective were reviewing a, say, cold case and comparing that to this one? Showing the reader how the murderer had gotten more vicious, would THAT qualify the scene as backstory of the raising the stakes category?

Revealing obstacles? What IS that? Morrell doesn’t give us a clear example. She speaks of an imaginary story where a widow vows not to get involved/marry another man in a dangerous profession because her policeman husband died on the job – and she falls for a fireman…. Okay. I kind of see that. I need more examples, though.

How could we mutate the recording scene to become one of revealing an obstacle, if it truly isn’t one already?

I think -- hypothesize -- that just because some bit of text is in the past or describing a character, it is not automatically backstory.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited November 01, 2008).]


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Patrick James
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Here is the email I sent Arriki about Red Dragon.

**********************

An interesting example of... Well, it isn't really backstory, but it may be interesting.
Red Dragon, a film starring Anthony Hopkins. It just happens to be on right now. I am having a hard time following the movie and typing it, but here goes. Its far from word for word. You'll get the general idea.

A detective is walking a crime scene. We see the carnage, the blood, but we don't know what actually happened. The detective tells us aloud. "The intruder entered the house silently and cut the husbands throat in his sleep. His wife was shot when she rose. The intruder left the bedroom, leaving her to watch her husband die." (His excuse for saying this aloud is that he is speaking into a recording device.)
"The intruder then went to the kids room." The detective follows a trail of blood. "He killed the children similarly. Savoring every moment, as they lost blood."(I don't know how how the author gets this. It sounded like the murderer spent very little time with the first two victims.) "The mother was still alive. He pushed mirror shards into the eyes of the children. It makes them look alive. He wants an audience as he... Touches her."

Well, the murder investigation continues but I don't know if there is more to get from it. anyway we are told a little about the antagonist. He likes to kill. the antagonist's modus operandi. I don't think we learn very much about the protagonist at this point. He is rather impassive about the scene.

Is this backstory? Not in a classical sense.

What has the author accomplished with this scene? He has created a lot of tension with the slow moving through the scene of carnage. He has let us know the seriousness of the situation with the deaths of even children. He has sickened us a little with the graphic descriptions of the carnage.

The vehicle. Dialogue, which is usually introspection when a person is talking to oneself, but this is not introspection. Let us call it conversation. Because he intends that these words be heard by somebody, when they use the recordings, they just aren't present at this time.

Have I ever employed this technique? I have written from a detective's point of view investigating a crime scene. I have used carnage to create tension. Do I think this effective? Yes.

Next is a scene in which the killer is weight lifting. You hear an argument in the background, you slowly realize that the argument is one that happened in the past between the killer and his grandmother. He is reliving it in his mind.

"Look what you have done to your bed!" G-mother

"I'm sorry I didn't mean to." The killer. He is boy aged and has a speech impediment. A bad one.

"Get the scissors from my medicine cabinet."

"Noo-ooo!"

"Get them now!" He gets them. "Good. Now take down your pants." We presume he does. "I'll cut it off!"

"Noo-oo!"

"I swear. If you soil your bed again, I will!"

"I won't.. I won't!"

Okay, we knew the killer was sick. Now we know why he is.

Is this backstory. Yes. But not so skillfully employed as in the Pretty Woman example. Or least it doesnt move as quickly and flow as naturally. It is a borderline flashback except that we never see any images, just hear the words that were said then. I think it is best to avoid flashbacks as they tend to be cliche. And use any other methods to get the scene across, if at all possible.

I hope this was insightful.
****************

I don't need the actual text, Arriki. Thanks for the offer. I am not sure there is more to learn from the scene.


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arriki
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I don't think the purpose of backstory is necessarily to create or increase tension. That is another "subtle element's" goal. The detective recording his impressions probably belongs to that chapter in BTL (BETWEEN THE LINES).

I was contemplating my navel and by chance my own bit of backstory in Cory. It's in the new draft none of you've seen yet. In it I have a backstory that seems to utilize two of the vehicles -- introspection that slowly becomes a full-blown flashback.

Is this true? Is it legitimate? Can we run around doing it whenever we want?

Any published examples, guys? I'm looking.
I also want very much some examples of revealing obstacles and raising the stakes. Some clear ones from published books that we can examine from all angles and figure just how these things work.

OOOh! Patrick's example -- flashback and dialogue combined. Interesting.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited November 01, 2008).]


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arriki
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If we took a chapter out of any book and some colored pens and started marking up everything that wasn’t dialogue, how many colors would we need? How many different types of narrative text are we dealing with?
Does backstory count when it is a single sentence in the midst of other text?

Or is true backstory that text which exists for one of Morrell’s reasons in one or more of her vehicles? It seemed so simple and obvious when we started and now I’m looking at examples that don’t seem clearcut.

This is why we need examples, the examples Morrell didn’t give us.
It is easy to pontificate on this subject, but not to get down to the actual usage.


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arriki
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I’ve been perusing some of my other writing texts on the subject of backstory.
In WRITING FOR THE EMOTIONAL IMPACT a more screenwriting text by Karl Iglesias, I discovered this insight. Page 84

There are two types of backstories – character and situation. The former I think we’re covering already in the BTL books, but here I found some discussion of situational backstory. Iglesias says the the very nature of stories which begin at a particular point in time is that everything before that point is backstory.

Hmmm… He says another term for the situational backstory is CONTEXT.
Once again, no hard examples. He talks about how before JURASSIC PARK opens, Hammond successfully clones dinosaurs. Before THE MATRIX, humans had been relegated to wombs to produce power. THE SILENCE OF THE LAMBS opens with the villain already having killed.

And, so? I ask, but Iglesias is silent. It’s up to us to decide whether he’s right/ How he’s right.

Take the Kewpie doll scene from RED DRAGON. We gain some insight into the pov, but the real power comes from watching him put the pieces together to understand what happened in the murder. The vehicle is not a flashback but introspection, right? The plot point leads to learning that the villain may have touched some the eyes without his gloves on which gives the case its first real clue. It does not give us motivations of either the villain or the pov detective. It does not reveal an obstacle, although the situation in another story might do that very thing. It doesn’t express anyone’s innermost fears. Does it raise the stakes in some way? I’m not certain.

Can it be that the backstory of the pov’s childhood and the drugstore is window dressing for the plot point of getting the villain’s fingerprint? That, instead of the backstory being important in and of itself, it just a way to work around to the information?
Is this A difference or THE difference between character backstory and situational backstory?

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited November 02, 2008).]


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TaleSpinner
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Your definition of "backstory" seems different from my understanding.

The best definition I can find online is at wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-story

For me the "backstory" is the story behind the story, so to speak. It's the background against which the story plays, some visible in the story, some not, or maybe only vaguely so. I write backstory as a separate document and use it to keep myself consistent within the imaginary world.

OSC calls it your "bible", the collection of facts known to the author about the characters and their universe. As the story evolves, new facts emerge and one might add them to the backstory.

I suspect the term came from TV series like Star Trek. It's a mechanism which enables several writers to collaborate on the series and keep episodes consistent with one another. It includes key facts about technologies, characters and intergalactic history. For example, IIRC, the Enterprise has a top speed of warp factor 10, and that fact is recorded in the backstory so that nobody writes an episode where it goes faster ... I think someone did, and they had to alter the backstory to account for it and keep things logical and consistent. Another element of Star Trek's backstory is the Transporter, a device that was introduced to save time getting on and off planets. It's hardly ever discussed (except when it breaks down to make the plot interesting) but the backstory will surely include facts about its use and limitations, again so that its use is never inconsistent from one episode to another.

One element of the Firefly TV series backstory is that Earth became dominated by two strong cultures, American and Chinese. We never see that Earth, never see interactions between Earthly Americans and Chinese. We never see that part of the backstory, yet it's often visible on screen in incongruous mixes of American and Chinese costume, custom and language which are never explained but add texture. Since the writers know the backstory, it's always consistent with itself on screen and lends a richness of texture to Whedon's futuristic worlds. I think this is one of the best examples in TV of what I understand backstory to be.

Another example: Asimov's "Nightfall" ***spoiler*** The backstory is this: what if a planet orbited in a complex fashion amongst three suns and, but for one day every several centuries, was constantly bathed in light from one or another sun? What would happen on that one night of darkness? The story is told from the perspective of people who live on the planet, who do not know this critical fact. Only Asimov knows it, from his backstory, and eventually the reader pieces it together though the eyes of a resourceful character. ***end spoiler***

My theory is that, since backstory is largely "in back of" the main story, or brought in as relevant all the way through a piece, this is why you're having difficulty identifying examples and separating them from plot, exposition and dialogue.

Hope this helps,
Pat


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arriki
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Right now we're studying this one book, BETWEEN THE LINES by Jessica Morrell. We're going along trying to understand her points. And, many other writing texts mesh with hers. Backstory is a technique, a specialized technique, for deepening the effect of a story. A "subtle" technique Morrell calls it.

Eventually we will all draw our own conclusions of what backstory means to us since there is still no universal agreement. But this study is to help us, the students, define tools we can use in our own stories. That's one of the problems writers have. Imagine if painters couldn't agree what in the color spectrum, colors actually were? Where does green start and blue end? I realize the actual point is probably debatable, but imagine if kelly green were considered by some artists to be a part of blue and royal purple were one of the reds? And others believed olive green belonged to the browns. Then just try and discuss painting.

It's hard to discuss writing when there is no agreement on terms. How can you learn how to use a tool if it keeps morphing in your hand?

Anyway, back to our discussion. I haven't heard much on this matter of situational backstory.

Can it be that BTW applies only to character backstory? Should we then consider the "situational backstory" to be merely background? Then the Kewpie doll scene would HAVE backstory as a part of it but the focus is on the story development of the pov's coming to his conclusion. The backstory would merely be a means to an end instead of an end in itself?

True Morrel type backstory involves us in using material about the characters' past to affect/deepen the readers' understanding of characters' actions?

We could compose a letter and ask her, you know. Unlike Jack Bickham, she isn't dead yet.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited November 02, 2008).]


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arriki
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Morrell has an entire chapter on flashbacks. I was just reading it. She addressed the technique of flashing back more fully in chapter 6 compared to touching on it in chapter 2 as part of backstory.

Let's imagine writing in a bunch of Venn diagrams. The circles, remember from school? We have one circle and we label it backstory. Another circle we label flashback.

Now, how do these two relate? Are they two separate circles? No. We know that flashback is one of Morrell's vehicles for backstory. So, do we place flashback entirely within backstory?
From chapter 6 I gather, no. There are flashbacks which do not involve backstory. We'll have to see how Morrell defines that, but for now, let's go along with her. So, imagine the two circles again. We push the edge of flashback over a little ways into backstory.

Life and writing are complicated. Darn!


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annepin
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Does Morell offer a definition of backstory? I ordered my book but it hasn't gotten to me yet. I think it would be helpful for me to know what she thinks, even if I end up with my own definition. Because right now my idea of backstory is similar to what TaleSpinner wrote about.


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arriki
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BTL. Morrell, Page 19

"Backstory is the means to fill in the gaps, supply a character's motivation and depth, and clarify how a world works."

John Truby in THE ANATOMY OF STORY: 22 steps to Becoming a Master Storyteller on page 272 says -- "Backstory is everything that has happened to the hero before the story you are telling begins. I rarely use the term 'backstory' because it is too broad to be useful. The audience is not interested in everything that has happened to the hero. They are interested in the essentials. That's why the term 'ghost' is much better."

I'll talk about ghost when I get back from work. I'm having a bathroom and snack break at home right now.

I have run into the term "ghost" in this regard other places. It could useful to us.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited November 02, 2008).]


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arriki
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I find it disturbing that Morrell includes “clarify how a world works” in her definition of backstory. As I said, maybe it’s time to write her and ask some questions. I went on to her website, but it didn’t really have a place to ask questions clarifying comments in her books.

Oh well, I’ll try and write her care of her publisher.

So, GHOST. Iglesias, in his book WRITING FOR EMOTIONAL IMPACT (page 65), believes that backstory is an element that adds texture and substance, to fascinate the reader. It is about the character’s past. It can include where he comes from, how he grew up, and how his past affects his current personality. (This last agrees with BTL, but the first two seem to just be there to keep the character from coming from a white room -- ??????)

He goes on to discuss what he perceives as the difference between backstory and the concept he refers as the ghost. The ghost is the part of the backstory has a pronounced affect on the character’s life in the realtime of the story. He uses CASABLANCA as an example. Captain Renault’s bit about Rick’s gun running is backstory. It helps us understand Rick and his actions at the end of the movie. But Rick’s flashback on Ilsa and Paris is different. Yes, it shows why Rick is the way he is now (cynical and unwilling to risk anything for anyone). But that is not a closed case. It haunts him until Ilsa comes and explains why she left him.

Iglesias goes on to explain that ghosts most often (wish he weren’t using weasel words but I guess in anything short of an entire book on the subject, he has to allow for the odd circumstance) involve traumas – abandonment, betrayal, or tragic accidents that cause permanent disfigurement or guilt. The death of a loved one, any traumatic incident that causes a sense of great loss or a psychological wound.

The difference – to Iglesias – between backstory and ghost is backstory molds the character’s personality and ghost is an open wound that haunts the character in the story and affects his inner need.

Oh boy! That’s Cory. This makes me more determined to hide his first murder.

I thought of another example of backstory -- dialogue -- is the opening there of THE GREAT GATSBY where the party goers are gossiping about Gatsby. But what is the reason for the backstory -- or...or is it NOT backstory? It is gossip, not reliable info. Something else, then.


[This message has been edited by arriki (edited November 02, 2008).]

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited November 02, 2008).]


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TaleSpinner
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You can find the first several pages of her book online at
books.google.co.uk/books by Googling "BETWEEN THE LINES by Jessica Morrell" -- sorry, I can't make the link work.

She defines it as "Backstory reflects the influences from the past" on page 18, but I think that's incomplete. In Star Trek, backstory includes history established as the story evolves through episodes. From the way she uses the term I think "clarify how a world works" is consistent both with my understanding and her usage of the term.

I agree that backstory lends depth to a story, but I don't regard it as specialized or even subtle (except in the way one selects what to share with the reader and how), it's pretty much mandatory, especially to F&SF with our complex worlds, technology and aliens. For me it's a separate document. In the books I have on writing F&SF it's introduced as "world building", or one's "bible" of information about character, milieu, technolgy, politics and so on. It evolves as the story develops to track history, so that the author can keep things straight and consistent.

On page 33 Morrell advises witholding, which here at Hatrack is always regarded as a Bad Thing, rightly so in my opinion.

It's true you would withold information (that's in the backstory) if it's stuff the POV character hasn't yet figured out, so in that sense it works. But that's not witholding, it's storytelling.

I fear this book includes some sloppy definitions and confusing use of terms, and that that is the reason, for example, one cannot construct the Venn diagram. In my Venn diagram, backstory would be the great circle that surrounds everything I know of the story; the story would be a circle within, and flashbacks yet smaller circles entirely within the story's circle.

Hope this helps,
Pat


[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited November 02, 2008).]

[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited November 02, 2008).]

[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited November 02, 2008).]


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arriki
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Sorry, Tale Spinner. I fear that I agree with John Truby. Your definition of backstory is too broad to be useful. In fact, that seems to be the same as "background." We don't really need two terms covering virtually the same area, do we?

What I'm trying to do is forge definitions (tools) that ARE useful.

I'm glancing over Morrell's chapter 2. She may say she considers backstory to include helping depict a fully realized story world, but she does nothing about that. No examples, no discussion as to how that works. Perhaps later in her book we'll run into that analysis.

For the moment I'm going go with what she did bring up in chapter 2. The four reasons and six vehicles for backstory. With those we have a limited and coherent base from which to look at text with regard to backstory. Care to join us?

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satate
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I have always thought of backstory more as how Talespinner describes it. It seems to me that the only difference is Arriki is using backstory to describe how it is used, so that backstory is subtle because it can be used that way. Where as background is the substance from which you draw from to create backstory. So we have background which is everything that happened before the story starts as well as the setting, and backstory is the purpose, means and use it is put to in the story. Is that how you mean arriki?
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TaleSpinner
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I find my definition of backstory entirely useful. I can write the backstory as an engineer, a poltical scientist, an observer of human behaviour--anything but a story teller--and get the background and the sequence of prior events clear in my mind and, as they develop, keep them straight.

John Truby's misleading. He assumes that all the backstory needs to be in the real story. It doesn't. Defining backstory as "in back of" the main story makes the definition useful. It's similar to background but more. It's one or several stories that lead up to the story at hand--stories that might or might not be told another time.

I think Morrell is short of examples because she hasn't got any, and with the four reasons and six vehicles she's oversimplfying a process that's best described as weaving--weaving together the plot and the backstory; worse, she's missing or obscuring the basic point, which is that backstory lends authenticity and verisimilitude to a story.

A search of Amazon indicates she has only written books about writing. Unlike OSC, Bova and Bradbury--authors of the best books on writing that I have on my bookshelf--she appears not to have published any fiction.

I think it's rare to be able to write decent fiction and write well about how to do it, as rare as being able to make a good guitar and play it well. As I said in the other thread, Bova's "The Craft of Writing Science Fiction that Sells" is excellent in that, unlike Morrell's book, it does include examples of the techniques it describes.

The table of contents for Morrell's book looks similar to other books on writing fiction. I fear that "subtle" is code for, "This book is like others on writing fiction so I changed things around a bit in order to make it different and thus get it published," and that in changing them around she's obfuscated things that were simple.

I really see little value in this book. Its definition of "backstory" is unclear, doesn't match its use of the term, and is misleading in suggesting it's a subtle technique when really it's a basic cornerstone of story-telling; and the aforementioned advice to withold is mistaken, or at best poorly expressed.

I think she's falling into a trap common amongst teachers who cannot do, or choose not to do. By analysing the writings of others but not actually writing and publishing fiction, by teaching what others have taught and rephrasing it to make it appear original or "subtle", she's diluting and distorting the message.

Sorry to be so negative; I will refrain from commenting further since we seem not to be of like mind,
Pat

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arriki
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I want a way to describe various aspects of writing. How can we talk about what is going on without a mutually agreed upon vocabulary? Instead of using BTL I could just make up my own but that just further acerbates the problem.

I’m going along with Morrell and the ideas that SOME people use. Her vocabulary and explanations seem specific enough to help us uncover flaws and point the way to possible solutions in our own stories. If you disagree, you don’t have to go along with us.

Now, backstory. For the purposes of this study, let’s agree that “backstory” is the concept of information about a character(s)’ past that has definite and specific functions within the story – Morrell’s four reasons. We may add more reasons if we come across some that work in general. Morrell’s assertion that backstory also clarifies how a fictional world works within that story – we have no explanation so far nor examples. We’ll ignore it until we hear from Morrell (and maybe even after because that seems to muddy waters already muddied enough).

That suit you, satate and Patrick James and annepin? Kathleen and the lurkers?

I don’t know if we will slavishly go through every chapter in BTL. I do think that Foreshadowing, Flashbacks, Pace, Imagery, Prologues, Sense of Place, Sensory Surround, Subplots, Subtlety, Suspense, Theme, and Transitions seem worth spending time on. Maybe the others, too. I figure looking at Flashbacks next. It’s tied to backstory somewhat. These are all concepts in writing that most of us have NOT mastered…yet.

So, where were we?


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annepin
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TaleSpinner, I'm finding this discussion extremely useful in clarifying my own thoughts, so I do hope you continue and pop in with a differing point of view.

To that end, I'm curious, TaleSpinner, how you define background.

I guess the way I see it is that backstory is a historical narrative thread specific to a character and story. If you're telling a story, say, about Beauty and the Beast and opening at the moment where the father tells Beauty she has to go live with the Beast, then the back story would be the story of how she got to that moment. Her mother dying (I think?), her father remarrying, her step sisters, etc.

The beast, of course, has his own backstory--he was once a prince and was bewitched into the form of a lion.

I see the usefulness in defining "ghost", but I feel like that more of a function of backstory, or perhaps a subdivision of backstory. In a Venn diagram, ghost would be a circle within backstory.

As for background... hm... I think for me this would include broader, non-narrative stuff. Like milieu, setting, cultural context, etc.


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arriki
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Backstory appearing within the story doesn’t just happen. It is incidents and/or information selected by the author to include…for Morrell’s four reasons (I assume until I have reason to believe otherwise.). What happened in the past of the characters within the story is not ALL necessary for the reader’s enjoyment of the story. We’re looking at what and how that information is selected and included. For our – well, my – convenience that is “backstory.” I could call it “X” or “shlimp” as in “a rose by any other name” but life is easier if terms reflect their use somewhat. Don’t you agree?

So, what do you guys think of satate’s examples from Sachar’s HOLES?

I’m thinking that a useful question to ask ourselves is why would “we” put that selected text into the story? Would “we” do it any differently? The same questions we should be asking ourselves about backstory we do or do not include in our own stories.


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annepin
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quote:
Backstory appearing within the story doesn’t just happen.

Not sure what you mean by this.

Yes, I agree, to an extent defining these terms is simply a convention, and as long as we agree on the convention, we can discuss these elements. However, for my own sake, I'm interested in exploring how others define backstory. It helps me formulate my own definition. Perhaps this thread isn't the proper place for such a discussion, since it's directed toward a specific study of examples.


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arriki
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It would help if I didn't have to spend my time defending my terminology and desire to have a way to discuss the intricacies of story composition. Defending my choice of books, etc.

I'd much rather discuss writing stories.


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arriki
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Backstory doesn't just happen -- I mean that the author makes a decision to include or exclude backstory elements. Now it may be a conscious decision or for some people just the flow as they are telling the story. Either way, here I am trying to figure out how to make conscious decisions on what to include.

What to include, how to include it, where to include it, even why to include it.

The same applies -- for me -- to foreshadowing and lots of other techniques.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited November 02, 2008).]


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TaleSpinner
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I've started a fresh thread in open discussions so that there, we can discuss more broadly what backstory means, and here, you can continue to discuss Morrell's ideas.

Cheers,
Pat


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arriki
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Thanks. Now, can we get back to work?

The HOLES examples? Comments, guys?


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arriki
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For you lurkers out there -- we're now looking at an example of backstory from NO SECOND CHANCE by Harlan Coben pages 116 to 117.

This particular one is interesting at this time because it shows how a backstory of the dialogue type can be used to reveal obstacles. Not the clearest example, I admit. Still, it's our first of this kind.

I especially enjoyed the way the action -- the dialogue -- had details interspersed of a woman driving her daughter to school while talking with the MC about serious matters. Those details lent an air of reality(?) to the scene.

Imagine yourself to be Harlan Coben for a moment. You need to bring this Rachel into the story. So, you know she’s an FBI agent. She’s an old college girlfriend of the MC. They broke up years ago and he hasn’t seen her since then although he does know a friend who still is in contact.

What is the most exciting – at least, most interesting – way to bring her on stage?

He could just call her up. Boring.
How to make her more interesting? It’s too easy if he contacts her and she says. Yep. I’m going to drop everything and help you deal with some kidnappers who have your daughter and probably already tried to kill you once and did kill your wife. No sweat.

What would YOU do?

------------------------------------------------------
Morrell talks about backstory needing a trigger. In other words – I assume – it is kind of lame to just have X sit down in a restaurant, order steak, and while waiting for it go into introspection about how his daughter’s death ruined his marriage to his second, and very wealthy, wife. Something has to start X on the path to that subject. It could be as simple as the waiter two tables over seating a young couple and the woman from behind resembles his daughter. She’d be about that age right now. Probably married to a stockbroker like that woman. The woman turns and she’s not a bit like Rebecca. Rebecca….

Then, the introspection should do more than merely describe Rebecca. So we learn she laughed a lot and was in high school when that drunk driver ran a red light and drove head on into Rebecca’s used Mustang. To make the backstory fit into the story better, we could learn some bit of information or insight about Mr. X or the accident or Rebecca or a key to the case he’s working on (like the RED DRAGON kewpie doll scene).

In a fantasy X could be waiting outside the palace when he sees something that reminds him of ____ that relates to the plot.

Okay. Let’s work on this scenario. The backstory will reveal that –
there is a fire dragon on the mountain he’s heading toward
no one has returned from the enchanted forest in two weeks
the mirror he seeks, kills people and sucks in their souls
the witch loves him more than she does the king

what else could be the obstacle revealed in this cheesy fantasy?


Captain Sparks of the good ship Intrepid --
what obstacles could he be heading into that are revealed in a timely spot of backstory?


the planet he’s approaching has a subtle poison in its atmosphere
his ship is going to be impounded by the interplanetary police
his first officer is planning to kill him
he doesn’t have enough fuel to make it past Vega IV

Here's an exercise I tried. Is it successful as backstory? I keep thinking I missed the mark somehow. Isn't backstory more fleshed out? Or, is it?

The man he was waiting for backed out of the alleyway carrying an armload of staffs.
“For the students,” he explained to Lord Aldaran. “They’re best if you get the wood now, before the first frost kills the outer covering.”
Aldaran nodded as if he cared. “Walk with me.”
They started up High Street past the tumbled aquaduct. “King still planning on fixing that thing?” the man asked.
“Like his father and his grandfather.”
“Dragons’ll just tear it down again.” The man shifted the load in his arms. “I was up to the mountains a few days ago. Took a batch of students. Seen some things.”
“Oh?”
“Heard you were planning on reaching the seaport by the low lands road.”
“It’s the fastest. How did you learn my plans?”
The man shrugged.
“Then you know why I’m going.”
“It’s supposed to be a secret?”
“Damn right it’s supposed to be.”
They reached the doorway to an old monastery turned martial arts training school. A couple of young squires were coming out. “Morning, sir Edward, Lord Aldaran.”
“Don’t have many students far along in their training these days. You can take your pick to go with you but they’re all green as this wood.”
“What have you ‘seen’ in the mountains that should worry me, Edward?”
The man drew Aldaran into the empty guard room. He let the wooden staffs fall to the ground and shut the heavy gate. When he was certain no one could hear, he said, “It’s not what I saw. It’s what I didn’t see.”
“Come on Eddy, stop acting like the third lead in a passion play.”
“Dragons. Not a one in sight. They’re going down to the seaside towns early this year. You sure you want to be on those roads with just a handful of men and couple of my students?”

Hmmm…this didn’t turn out quite so much backstory-ish. On the other hand, perhaps this IS backstory of the type Morrell means. It is an solution to the problem of presenting some info to our pov – Lord Aldaran – that reveal an obstacle. Dragons on the road he must travel.

Does the backstory in a dialogue setting need to be this grand story or can it be a hint? The backstory we are admiring in CASABLANCA which Captain Renault speaks revealing Rick’s gun running past is little more than Edward’s warning here.


[This message has been edited by arriki (edited November 04, 2008).]
I've been tinkering with the example to make it make better sense.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited November 04, 2008).]


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satate
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What I think is interesting about the Holes examples is the way he breaks off the main story and goes off onto a seemingly different story altogether, yet it is interconnected to the main story and I think it would count as backstory.

In the first two examples we get all the comments about his great great grandfather and then we are shown the great great grandfather. The first time I read it I was confused why he suddenly started showing us the grandfather but by the end it was all tied together. I imagine the reason he did it is because the backstory of the grandfather is essential information to the plot but there is no one alive who is aware of that information. So he has to go back in time and show it. Was there another way he could have done it? Maybe, through a journal or perhaps letters, but that still would have been showing. Introspection would be out since no one alive knows the details.

Anyways thats all I can add tonight, I have a cold and my brain is fuzzy.


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arriki
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Example 2 - HOLES by Sachar Chapter 7 second page. We hear about Stanley then in the middle of the chapter is a page break and we get this.

[I have difficulty seeing if this is backstory or one of the other stories just set in the past. ]

The rest goes on like that for two and half pages, then page break and right back to the Stanley Yelnat's story. The rest of the chapter goes back a forth, a page or so of Stanley and then a page or so of the great great grandfather for the rest of the chapter.

[If it is two interactive stories, complete stories, and none of this is anything that a character in the main story could know…???? We can eliminate flashback, then. And introspection, even dream and dialogue as vehicles. That leaves summary and prologue. I think this particular example may not qualify for backstory status. It’s something else. Something we do see often in stories, especially novels with lots of room for stuff. Had HOLES been a short story, this information, the kind that affects the plot in a meaningful way, would have probably been couched in backstory…or some other info stuffing technique.

Is this the same technique as in Hillerman’s THE GHOSTWAY that Kathleen brought to our attention? Parallel or converging stories?

See my comments in email about the other examples.]


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arriki
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HOLES by Sachar
Example 2 - this part happens directly after the first example ends but I thought I'd separate since this back story contains some dialog in with it and the first chunk has a lot in it

[Again, introspection revealing motivation? I like the way the present was inserted in with the bump and the guard.] Red is story realtime.

We enter this backstory easily because we can see Stanley has nothing much to occupy his mind. And the subject of failure is an obvious one for him to contemplate.

So, introspective backstories can be long and involved ones while dialogue is more useable when you have a particular story point to make as in Rachel as an obstacle in Coben’s novel and Rick’s altruistic past as revealed by Captain Renault in CASABLANCA – then your backstory can be short. A few lines of dialogue or something similarly brief will suffice? We’ll have to see if this hypothesis holds up.



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arriki
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How about making an early hypothesis?

The reasons for using backstory:

Raising the stakes – no clear examples yet
Revealing motivations – lengthy (the example of Stanley on the bus in HOLES) and short (Rick’s altruism in CASABLANCA)
Expressing innermost fears – no data yet
Revealing obstacles – short (Rachel in Coben’s NO SECOND CHANCE)

The vehicles:

Dialogue – short (Rick’s altruism in CASABLANCA, Rachel’s reluctance in NO SECOND CHANCE,)
Summary – no clear data yet
Flashbacks – no data yet
Introspection – lengthy (Stanley on the bus in HOLES)
Dreams and nightmares – no data yet
Prologues – no data yet


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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I'm inclined to look at HOLES as one long story that took generations to tell.

An example you might also want to consider, is a book that qualifies as a "revelatory novel" in that, as opposed to regular novels which are concerned with "what happens next," a revelatory novel is instead concerned with why things happened the way they did, and so the story does not need to be told in a linear manner. (HOLES might be considered a combination of both kinds of stories.)

(Non-linear story-telling is not necessarily backstory, and you may want to figure out how to distinguish them.)

The "revelatory novel" I refer y'all to is CHRONICLE OF A DEATH FORETOLD by Gabriel Garcia Marquez. It starts off by telling you that everyone in the village knew that a certain man was going to be murdered that day, and then, in segments that move back and forth in time around the murder, the author shows not only why the murder happened, but also why no one in the village did anything to stop the murder. The books ends with the actual murder.

The segments from the past could be called backstory, but would the segments from after the murder also qualify as backstory?


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arriki
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I'll see if the library has the Marquez novel, Kathleen.
I haven't read HOLES so it's hard for me to judge what sor tof novel it is. It's checked out currently.

I spent time going through some examples flashback backstory both are the revealing motivation typse, I think.

An interesting question from Morrell’s list –
What occurrence(s) from the character’s past will affect the plot?
Which ones will best reveal his character/motivations that are hidden?

Those seem to be the ones I am asking after the fact, when my story is written and I’m looking for ways to make it stronger and better – reading you guys’ comments.

FLASHBACK EXAMPLES
From SICK PUPPY by Carl Hiaasen pages 15 to 18 and
From THE RISEN EMPIRE by Scott Westerfeld pages 77 to 80 (flashbacks are long I suppose. Can we find one that qualifies that isn’t?)

Both of these examples are set off from the rest of the chapter by hard scenebreaks and both end with a sort of punch. SICK PUPPY’S with a line showing how wasted the anger management class was on Twilly and THE RISEN EMPIRE ends with the bit of his still affected by his childhood trauma and still going ahead (?) and launching something.


Kathleen said --Non-linear story-telling is not necessarily backstory, and you may want to figure out how to distinguish them.
Perhaps, you just did distinguish them.
The backstory tool I see emerging here is not all-encompassing. It should work in ordinary, linear stories.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited November 04, 2008).]


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arriki
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Here is a short excerpt from THE WALK-IN by Gary Berntsen and Ralph Pezzullo page 157

….
Eight years ago Matt had rescued Guillermo from a Serbian arms dealer who wanted him dead.
“I’m looking for a kid named Javed Mohammed. I believe his last name is Kourani. Eighteen; lives in France with his mother; his grandfather was a Shia mullah.”
Guillermo was a useful guy. He’d escaped from Argentina in the ‘70s during the Dirty War and used his skills as a political operative to create alliances and make deals. You wanted a woman who had slept with Fidel Castro, he could find her. You needed a Chinese minisub, he could get that for you, too.
“How soon do you need him?”
“Today, if possible.”

You see this a lot in fiction. You bring a new character onstage and give a short bio or other explanation of why. Here, that is the paragraphs -- Eight years ago... and -- Guillermo was a useful guy.

Is this some form of backstory? It is summary. Why is this brought up? It reveals (explains) Matt's motivation(?) for calling on the guy at this point in the story.
But IS it legitimately backstory for our purposes?

On pages 232 to 233 of the same novel I found a longer -- but less than a page -- flashback. I think it is expresses innermost fears in introspection. Does it?

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited November 05, 2008).]


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arriki
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I’m beginning to think that with this confusion of terminology where everyone “knows” what backstory and foreshadowing, and pacing and flashbacks and all those other writing terms mean but there is no “official” consensus, that when you read a book that attempts to get into detail but lacks examples, it is because the exact definition does not exist. Morrell gives us her insight but refrains from going into details because that would mean she could conflict with what the concepts mean to parts of her audience.

She would have to include and exclude so many examples that the very thought of the size of the task would be daunting. (I’m feeling that way right now. I wonder what Morrell does when she teaches students about these techniques in a class they’re paying big bucks for? And they ask the hard questions.)

What we are doing here is defining the concepts to fit her suggested reasons and vehicles and any of our own. We’re daring to exclude some kinds of backstory – at the moment – in the hopes of getting a useable tool. So what if our tool doesn’t work in all cases and at all times? Having it made means we have a way to discuss stories’ strengths and flaws in specific detail. It also means that we might be able to better conceive how to write. Not as in a straight-jacket, but a budding knowledge of many various ways what we want to say can be written. And practice using those ways if we write up and examine exercises using them.

Is this making any sense?

I mean – like with that bit in the THE WALK-IN bit I posted. That part about why Matt called Guillermo? Haven’t we all seen those over and over again in fiction? We use them, too. But is there a specific term for them that is agreed upon by everyone? Or some insights about using them? Is it backstory or some other category of information to make the reader more comfortable with the story being told?

I'll probably revise this several times. I'm trying toget an idea solidified in my mind. I guess that's what this whole thread is about -- getting ideas clear.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited November 05, 2008).]


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