posted
I totally agreed with the "Is it bad to be fat?" essay. This is something I have always suspected. I also dislike the amount of stupid diets like the Atkin's diet, which I don't know much about, but I've read that it causes kidney problems and met a woman that has kidney problems because of it.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Good essay, though it pretty much repeats what was in the Scientific American article that he quoted.
I'm hoping to lose some weight, but it's because I'm physically feeling uncomfortable. I can't play DDR as long as I used to, and I get winded walking up the stairs. I don't like that. So I'm going to increase my exercise and hope I get more fit. If I lose weight while doing so, great! If I don't, well, that's fine too, as long as I feel better. I have plenty of clothes in my current size that I look great in, so I don't really care about losing weight for beauty reasons. Just want to have a bit more energy and stamina, and exercise will help with that.
Posts: 1805 | Registered: Jun 1999
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I'd like to lose a bit of weight, but it's very irratating and boring. I do walk nearly everywhere at least. Like for my temp job I had to walk 3.8 miles. 1.5 hours.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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He totally left out the whole premise behind the BMI, and the fact that the reason why brad pitt and george clooney would be considered "overweight" along with most professional athletes is because muscle weighs more than fat, so they aren't actually "fat" as in having a large amount of adipose tissue. Percentage body fat is a far more accurate measurement of "fat" than the BMI.
I actually agree with the majority of his article, but the stuff he left out weakens his arguments.
posted
I threw away my scale. I'm just tired of worrying over how much I weigh. I no longer care what my weight is. At the doctor's office I ask them not to tell me - I don't want to know.
Not because I'm ashamed of it, but because I'm sick of living by the numbers.
Instead I judge myself according to how I feel. Can I do all the things I want to do, do I have energy, do I enjoy getting out and doing things with my kids?
No. I'm not in very good shape. During my depression where I ate to make myself feel better and sat on my butt in the air conditioning I got heavier and even worse than that I got out of shape and unhealthy.
So, I've been working at improving that. The kids and I go to the park every weekday that it doesn't rain. I walk on the track while they play, we take balls and frisbees and hula hoops and they have fun and I walk and then play with them until we're all ready for lunch and then we come home and eat a decent lunch.
I don't know how much weight I've lost. I do know that when I started I could barely walk three laps (each lap is 1/3 mile, so that's one mile) without being out of breath and red faced. Now I walk five laps before I'm breathing hard and I'm going to keep adding a lap a week until I'm walking about nine laps and I have my heart rate up in a good zone for at least 30 minutes to get maximum cardiac benefit. My grandparents both died of heart disease. I don't want to duplicate that.
I could care less what size I wear. Seriously, I know that sounds ridiculous but I'm beyond caring about the size or the number on the scale. I want to be able to take my kids (and my dogs when they're older), and go to the park and play and for once let the kids say "Mom we're tired let's go!" before I feel worn out. I want to go hiking with my husband and be able to tackle the trails that will challenge me and take me someplace spectacular.
I'm well on my way, I'm thrilled that I've been able to work up to five laps in only a few short weeks. I'm also excited that we've established a pattern and a habit and the kids and I aren't spending our summer staring at the TV or playing XBox, we're actually getting fresh air and exercise every day.
I'm not an uncomfortable weight, I mean I can easily fit into a movie theater chair or an airline seat, and it's not too difficult to find clothes. My concern is much more about my health. And I've found that I do better when I quit worrying about numbers and just concentrate on being active and feeling better.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Many people don't do the Atkins' diet correctly. They think "cut out the carbs" and that's it. But the no carbs part of the diet is only the first step. Eventually you are supposed to reintroduce increasing amounts of carbs into your diet, but only after you have trained your body and mind to eat other foods that provide the right nutrients to your body.
Also you are supposed to be combining that with exercise and increased water intake.
People shouldn't start such a radical diet like that until they know all the facts about it.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Okay so I went back and actually read the article.
I think OSC makes some good points about not trusting into the BMI thing too much, and about questioning sources without just giving into blind faith.
But to me, he seems to be doing the exact same thing in the other direction. Being healthy is better for you, and that means exercise, and keeping your weight down, and that is a medical fact. I don't like all his pseudo-scientific crap about how man was evolutionarily built to be fat. Does he suggest then, that man of 10,000 years ago or whatever had high fat fast food, high sugar drinks, and all that other crap that people tend to eat these days?
It's ignorant and naive to ignore the obvious changes to the American (or human for that matter) diet in the 21st century. Being overweight puts extreme pressure on your heart, clogs your arteries making you more likely to have a heart attack or stroke, and diabetes, and puts stress on your joints which helps arthritis and osteoporosis along.
It's not a matter of your BMI, or really your actual weight, if your high weight is due to muscle mass. Too much fat is bad for you. I think OSC ignores the fact that the average man of 10,000 years ago didn't have a job, or a car to get from place to place. I also think he contradicts himself when he says he wants to exercise so he feels better, but doesn't think that weight loss makes you healthier. You feel better becuase you're getting healthier obviously.
It's dangerous to ignore the obvious health benefits of being fit and having low fat. Maybe being fat isn't deadly, but it's hard to argue that being in shape isn't better for you.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote: I also think he contradicts himself when he says he wants to exercise so he feels better, but doesn't think that weight loss makes you healthier. You feel better becuase you're getting healthier obviously.
There is not necessarily any contradiction here. You don't have to lose weight to become more healthy because of exercise.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:evolution doesn't care, as long as the species has an improved chance of survival.
I'm sorry, but this is a particular pet peeve of mine. Evolution does not act at the species level, unless you buy into a particular brand of the theory which is espoused by E.O. Wilson (and others, of course).
While I was happy to see ANYONE using a cogent argument for inherited traits and don't really mind practically non-sensical sentences like "evolution doesn't care..." (which is, of course better than saying "evolution cares...")...
it just really chaffs when I read people say things about evolution operating on the species level.
I'm sorry, but the basic, pure thought of evolutionary theory is that it operates on individuals and, at most, close relatives (hence the concept of inclusive fitness).
From it, species arise, split, die off, etc., but it is all about reproductive fitness -- which critters out of a group of critters have the most offspring that survive to adulthood (i.e., reach reproductive maturity).
diversity of genotypes (and thus phenotypes) within a population is good for the survival of a species precisely because there are enough different types of individuals around (with enough different traits) so that when conditions change rapidly, at least a few will survive to produce the next generation.
Okay...I'll end my rant here.
It's a fine essay. I'm just bugged by the common misperception of what evolution really says.
I think it's the source of many of the arguments about it...
posted
Evolution does act on the species level, but not in the same way it acts on the organism level, or cell level, or even gene level. The only reason this is true is that species do not reproduce discretely the way individuals (organisms, cells, genes) do. But there is evolutionary pressure on species in the sense that if two species occupy the same ecological niche (or overlapping niches), the one best able to survive is more likely to be present if you look a week, a year, a decade down the line. It's almost a tautology, really.
Some of the more interesting things, I think, about evolution are when different levels come into conflict. For example, the "interests" of an individual cell, at least in a limited timeframe, can conflict with those of the whole organism, as they do in cancer. It isn't too difficult to draw parallels with situations in which an individual organism's interest conflicts with that of its species.
But I fear we have gone somewhat afield. Carry on. Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jan 1999
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quote: the one best able to survive is more likely to be present if you look a week, a year, a decade down the line.
This phenomenon can be explained by the differential fitness of individuals within each competing species. It doesn't require that evolution "act at the species level."
In other words, if that is the sense in which evolution acts at the species level, it's the same as saying that evolution acts at the level of inclusive fitness of individuals. It doesn't add anything to the theory or explain any otherwise unexplainable facts.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote: This phenomenon can be explained by the differential fitness of individuals within each competing species. It doesn't require that evolution "act at the species level."
In other words, if that is the sense in which evolution acts at the species level, it's the same as saying that evolution acts at the level of inclusive fitness of individuals. It doesn't add anything to the theory or explain any otherwise unexplainable facts.
Yes. But you can explain evolution at the organism level with evolution at the cellular level. I maintain that the only qualitative difference is the lack of discrete reproduction on the species level. I agree that it is not usually very useful to speak of evolution on a species level, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen or doesn't make sense.
Now, making silly claims based on a misunderstanding of evolutionary theory is a pet peeve I can fully support. Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I just glanced through the article, now that I finally know what you meant by front page.
I am in full agreement with a lot of it. If people focused more on eating healthier foods and exercising regularly the actual BMI wouldn't be as useful a tool. Losing 5-10% of body weight and keeping it off with a healthier lifestyle makes a HUGE improvement in health, whatever the BMI. Even if they don't look like it. Most other people don't notice the change, and don't tell the patient how much healthier they are, even their doctors don't, then the patient gets discouraged and the weight plus more comes right back. Keeping up the exercise is so important at any weight.
You know, there are a LOT of unhealthy slender people. A lot of my slender patients in their 30s or older are sicker than the mildly obese ones. Many slender patients with a normal BMI eat poorly, don't exercise, or are addicted to cigarettes or booze or other drugs. Many have anxiety disorders or eating disorders. Usually the studies don't seem to highlight that enough somehow.
Focusing more on the weight of diabetics, sleep apnea patients, patients with heart disease or terrible family history, morbid obesity, and other chronic conditions is very important, don't get me wrong.
Also, the childhood epidemic of obesity is concerning and could be very bad for this country. I don't remember if childhood obesity is touched upon in the article. Whole different ballgame there.
I haven't really looked at the evolution comments on the thread enough. But I've seen endocrinologists who specialize in obesity talk about body types and genetics and how some bodies hold onto fat differently than others. Like American Indians tend to be more obese than other Americans, they have more apple shaped bodies on average, and have an epidemic of diabetes. That probably DOES have something to do with the type of body that tended to live longer and healthier in pre-Columbus times when they needed to eat and hold onto calories for the tough times. Now their descendants are cursed with obesity as a result.
Posts: 1990 | Registered: Feb 2001
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Theca, I've never heard of apnea and obesity linked before. Would you be able to privde me with a bit of background? it would be awesome, thanks. Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I've heard of that link. I used to work with a woman with her MD. I'd said that I was having trouble sleeping or something and that I thought I had sleep apnea, and she said that wasn't likely because I'm not fat. When I asked why that mattered she said that excess fat in the face and neck can close the airways and cause restricted breathing problems when people sleep.
I don't know any more details than that.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Theca, OSC didn't touch on childhood obesity at all. It's something I'm very worried about. Having worked in education and childcare, I've seen firsthand what's happening to American kids and I think that the number of morbidly obese adults is going to skyrocket when these kids come of age.
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posted
Yes. These obese kids are not usually just healthy overweight kids and many will become unhealthy morbidly obese diabetic adults.
Posts: 1990 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
There's a general misconception, also among the medical community, that skinny people don't have obstructive sleep apnea. It simply isn't true. Yes, a neck with more fat around it can either cause apnea or make existing apnea worse, but there's more to it than that. The shape of the throat can make apnea more likely to occur - ie, oval instead of round. Or a large neck even if it's not because of being overweight. Or the tongue can fall back into the throat.
But then, the general thought on obstructive sleep apnea used to be middle-aged, overweight male.
My doctors ruled out apnea in my case on the basis that, at least in the beginning, I didn't fall under even one of those criteria. After decades of severe sleep deprivation, however, and now I do - the overweight bit. I'm still not male or middle-aged, though. And now that we know the symptoms, we know that I've had obstructive sleep apnea since I was a small child - and skinny, back then. But then, I also had the oversized tonsils which were (mostly) removed when I was twelve.
But there's also central apnea, which is when the brain fails to send the signal to breath. Is not caused by being overweight or underweight or anything related to weight. But it can still be as harmful and have the same effects as obstructive sleep apnea.
One more thought. It's also not clear how many overweight people with apnea have apnea because they're overweight, or are overweight because they have apnea.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I agree, obesity is a risk factor, not a criteria. Sometimes people with poor sleep don't have sleep apnea but do have restless legs or periodic limb movements of sleep. And skinny people can have large tonsils or a small neck. So anybody should be sent to a sleep study if they have concerning symptoms and medical workup isn't coming up with other causes.
But as far as this topic of obesity is concerned, sleep apnea is a considered to be a possible consequence of obesity and obese people with sleep apnea can more likely get insurance to pay for gastric bypass or weight loss medications because the long-term consequences of sleep apnea are so costly.
posted
you're pulling my "collective" leg, now, aren't you Theca? Sleep apnea is not that big of a concern, now is it?
Posts: 551 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
gastric bypass is a pretty drastic and risky surgery. It's only suggested for people who are drastically over weight, like 400 pounds overweight.
And even then, it's very dangerous.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
More like, you're trying to pull MY leg. The list of complications of untreated sleep apnea is impressive, however, so I'll list them anyway. This is from Yahoo Health, the link I just posted above:
quote:* Low blood oxygen levels during sleep. Low blood oxygen levels can lead to high blood pressure in the lungs (pulmonary hypertension) and in the rest of the body (hypertension). Nearly 50% of people who have OSA have high blood pressure. 1 * Heart failure affecting the right side of the heart. About 10% to 15% of people who have OSA develop pulmonary hypertension, which leads to right-sided heart failure. 1 * Irregular heart rhythms (arrhythmias) or heart failure, which may cause sudden death. * Coronary artery disease (CAD). * A greater-than-normal number of red blood cells, which may cause thickening of the blood. * Death caused by blood vessel disease affecting the brain and heart (stroke and heart attack). * Failure to resume breathing (respiratory failure) and sudden death, especially in the early morning (very rare).
posted
Gastric bypass is a last resort, yes. But if the person's health is bad enough, sometimes it is the best chance at a longer life. You have to weigh the risks and benefits individually for each patient and patients have to go into it with the right attitude and work hard or it won't have a good outcome.
Consider the diabetic on 5 shots a day, sleep apnea not tolerating CPAP well, with hypertention. I've seen patients just like that come out able to get off insulin, off all blood pressure meds, off CPAP, and live a much happier and productive full life.
I saw a 450 lb woman wheelchair bound from her weight last year. She had to use a seatbelt to strap into her custom wheelchair or her huge abdomen would pull her forward right out of the chair. Her pulmonologist told her she won't live a year if she doesn't do the bypass now. She's been dragging her feet. I've made phone calls to her to encourage her, I've had pamphlets sent to her house, but she just keeps saying she just can't make the decision.
Posts: 1990 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I hate being fat. I'm 27, 5'10" and weigh 250 lbs, and I'm miserable. Mainly because of the negative perceptions that I have on myself for being overweight. I come from a stocky family and we are all fat. I like to pretend to people that I like who I am but I don't. I get little support from the skinnies when I am dieting and excercising. That can eat what they want with impunity and I am forced to my salads, and low fat dressing. I hate who I am, it limits my ability to form relationships because of my low self esteem. I hate shopping for clothes and having to search for my size amung the plethora of 32's and 34's. I hate the look of disgust I get from women when I ask them out. I hate that I wrote this reply.
Posts: 70 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Untreated sleep apnea can be very serious, as Theca, who is a medical doctor, outlined above. Let me tell you about a few of the side effects I experienced as a result of successful treatment (CPAP).
* no longer had to get up to pee 3-6 times a night * no more sleep terrors, nightmares, or walking in my sleep * no more narcolepsy (especially bad if you're operating heavy machinery or driving) * no more periods from hell (they were so bad, I'd had many ultrasounds and finally exploratory surgery to find out what the heck was going on), which also meant far fewer pain relievers and no more need to be on birth control as an attempt to control them. Also, needed far less feminine hygeine products, so that saves me a few hundred dollars a year * blood pressure (which wasn't very bad, but I had a history of low blood pressure before I gained weight) went down from 140/85 to 110/70. In a matter of a few days on CPAP. * memory improved dramatically * cotton-ball stuffed in head syndrome virtually gone, and able to think much more clearly * no longer needed to spend 12-15 hours a night in bed - now down to only 8 hours of sleep * headaches and migraines were reduced dramatically * water retention went down within a few days * spontaneously lost 65 pounds in the next few years (in other words, no diet or exercise contributed to that) * eyesight improved from -2.75 in both eyes to -0.75 - don't wear glasses unless I need to see for distance * no more tossing and turning during my sleep * no more waking up frequently during the night * allergies got better * digestion improved
(There's a whole lot more, but I don't remember. I didn't say I now have a great memory - just better than it was before. ) During my overnight sleep lab, we discovered that my oxygen levels fell below 70%, while my heart rate went from 40 bpm to 160 bpm in a matter of a second or two or five. I only had 45 apneic events an hour. That's not very bad at all. In fact, it's considered to be mild-moderate.
Along with it, though, I also have problems under general anaesthetic. It suppresses my breathing response even more. I seem to lose the drive to breathe. My last operation, I told all the doctors and nurses about it in advance, and after surgery, when I was on CPAP (after they removed the tube from my throat), I had a nurse standing over me yelling at me to breathe for the next few hours. I was drugged enough that I knew something was wrong, but couldn't do anything about it. My oxygen levels (remember, I'm on CPAP at the time) were dropping below 80%, and the nurse kept very careful watch over me. Luckily, because I alerted them before hand, they put me in the step-down ward - one nurse, one patient. So if anything had gone seriously wrong, someone would know immediately. Now, I know enough about what happened to know that, should I require general anaesthetic again, I need to go on BiPAP, which basically means even more assisted breathing (without getting all technical). It also explains why I went into convulsions during previous general anaesthesia.
My uncle has severe apnea - 120 apneic events an hour. His heart rate climbs to well over 200 bpm during an apneic event. His sleep specialist told him in no uncertain terms that if he started on treatment now (he was 44 at the time) he could avoid permanent heart problems. If he didn't, he'd be dead in something like 5 years. Every male in his family has died of heart problems before they're 55 - going back 5 or 6 generations. His blood pressure also dropped dramatically, and he's also experienced spontaneous weight loss. He no longer has narcolepsy either.
My brother - same thing.
I could go on and on and on with stories like this from just my family. And then I could add hundreds more from the patients of my respiratory therapist (I worked in her office as an accountant for a few years).
Every single person I know who has been diagnosed and subsequently treated for apnea has experienced a dramatic shift towards health.
During an apneic event, a person stops breathing, and because there's now less oxygen in the blood stream, the heart speeds up, trying to compensate. That's why there's such a huge increase in beats.
Think about all those stories you hear about people having heart attacks in their sleep.
Do you see the connection?
Is obstructive sleep apnea that big a deal? Oh yeah. It really is.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Last fall my husband said to me "You know it's not that I have no libido or that I'm not interested in sex. I know you haven't been able to lose weight since the baby. I know it's not your fault. But you totally turn me off."
Posts: 772 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Mimsies, I feel for you. I've struggled with weight alot in my life--especially in high school. A friend of mine from high school, recently told me she's developed a weight problem and her doctor has told her to start losing it. She was one of the dreaded few who could eat anything and not gain an ounce.
She said, "I get it now. You were my friend and I just saw you. I didn't understand why you had a such hard time being fat. But I can see now it's a power thing--no one laughs at your jokes, and it's like people think being fat is all your fault."
This issue is a real pet peeve for me because it's caused me so much heartache--people in this country are so looks obsessed and they can be so hateful. These days I really have to leave the scale out of it (go Belle!). I am not my dress size.
posted
mimsies, I am so sorry. I wonder, though, if there is more to it than your weight, but that is what he sees. Could it be something esle, like a hidden(to himeslf) jealousy of the baby?
Belle, you go girl!
I am not throwing away the scale, my husband could cre less how heavy I am, but I want to play soccer again, and I have to be trim and in shape or I will hurt myself. I just want my athletic self back.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Could the problem be the strong hatred people have for people who are overweight (Try reading Diary of a Fat Housewife, what an annoying book. She spends all this time ranting and raving about how much she hates being overweight and overweight people, then she goes on a dangerous and stupid diet that involves eating only 200 calories a day!) cause people to go on ridiculous diets, such as crash ones which just makes people gain more weight when they get off of the diet?
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
The thing is, I don't think as many people "hate" fat(or overweight) people as everyone thinks. I think we just do a lot of self hating.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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I don't think it is hate. I do think it is a matter of being invisible. My mother was very overweight (and it did contribute to her death). She said it was like she wasn't there. She had to be twice as loud, twice as competent, twice as everything, because the assumption was often that she had little to contribute. She had to fight for respect. I don't think she ever encountered hate, but she did encounter scorn and indifference.
I was reading an article about the experiences of people who have lost more than a hundred pounds. It didn't change who they were inside, but it did indeed change how people responded to them, from co-workers to strangers on the subway. It's sad to realize that the kindness of strangers varies greatly depending on how good you look.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: Every single person I know who has been diagnosed and subsequently treated for apnea has experienced a dramatic shift towards health.
One of my very best buddies got a diagnosis of sleep apnea and a CPAP machine just a few months ago. WOW. She has a completely different life now. Now she is pretty darned excited about turning 60 (in August)healthy and with her personal life in order.
Posts: 25 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
As I'm fond of saying, "I have the body of a goddess. Unfortunately, it's a Neolithic fertility goddess." I know I weigh more than I should, and I have intentions of improving my diet (especially once my garden gets going and I have fresh produce right in the backyard). Sometimes I backslide and start eating a crappy diet again, though, mostly when I'm stressed and have no time or energy for cooking. Dinner last night was handfuls of semi-stale cereal straight out of the box >_< It was all I could muster the energy for.
Until a couple months ago I was going swimming three or four days a week, and I liked that--it's a sizeable time commitment, but it was a good destressor and helped couteract the rest of my very sedentary lifestyle. I got a skin infection a few months ago, though, and I'm waiting for that to clear up before I resume. I hope it clears up soon; I've already gained 5 pounds and my blood pressure's up about 10 points Posts: 957 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Just remember that swimming is not a weight bearing activity. Adults need weight bearing activity, especially women, to keep bones healthy and prevent osteoporosis. Swimming and biking are good exercise but should not make up 100% of anyone's exercise plan.
Posts: 1990 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I also walk the dog for about half an hour every day, will that help?
I hate many, many things about exercising, but the thing I hate the most is the sweating. That's why swimming is my primary exercise, it's the only thing I've been able to stick with.
Posts: 957 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I imagine everyone sweats when they swim, but it isn't so noticable because you're submerged in water. And it is less... er... sweaty!
It's kinda funny we call the baby the baby still even though he's 5.5 now!
And yes, I think that it is NOT just the weight going on. I think he IS jealous of our son. Also he is the type who always has to be upset about something, always be worried or obssessing about something.
I think he picked the fat thing because he knows it is something that I am sensitive about. I mean, I don't think he consciously thought it out to be cruel. But if it were something else about myself that really bothered me, then that would be what he finds to be a turn off.
In fact I know he just gets hang ups about odd things. I get ovarian cysts every so often. He has complained THAT is a turn off, because he is imagining what is happening in my body and it is really gross. He has complained that thinking about things that happened in my childhood are a turnoff, and of course he can't HELP thinking about it according to him.
I think what really makes me sad is that I REALLY love him. But I just don't see our marriage lastiing much longer. He doesn't seem to love me. It seems like he stays married because he doesn't want to be alone, and he doesn't want to go through all the difficulties of finding someone else.
well, I'm making myself depressed, so I better stop. :^(
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And now that we know the symptoms, we know that I've had obstructive sleep apnea since I was a small child - and skinny, back then. But then, I also had the oversized tonsils which were (mostly) removed when I was twelve.![[Frown]](frown.gif)
