posted
I've been speaking to a lot of my friends from middle-school /high-school, and it seems that they've just put their careers on auto-pilot... now we graduated from high school in just 2002, but a lot of them are doing MBA's, MCA's and other assorted degrees for absolutely no reason... somehow these seem like natural progressions to them... a friend of mine came to the US to do her MCA even though she dislikes her subject, and doesnt know what she wants to do with it.
is this common in the US also?
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posted
Careers in auto-pilot? We have people living whole lives in cruise control, winding their way to cookie-cutter houses in the suburbs. It's striking how far you can go, and be encouraged to go, as long as you stop thinking about what you are doing.
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posted
In defense of those of us who do, sometimes you have to actually meet other responsibilities before you get to go off and do what you enjoy. Being a telecommunications engineer sucks, but it has kept me alive and my children fed where the money I made playing music or stand to make instructing martial arts would not.
Those cookie cutter houses in the suburbs are much nicer than "those carboard boxes under the bridge" too.
If you want to do something different, start by not letting your job define you.
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posted
It's definitely not uncommon, but I don't know that it's common either. I do have several friends who went on to grad school for no other reason than that they didn't want to get a real job yet. This doesn't make any sense to me, because after they get a masters they will then have to get an even more imporant job (I assume) and won't have any experience in the field. But to each his own.
On the other hand, I know many people who have taken their degree and almost immediately went into their field of choice and are very happy doing exactly what they want to do.
And then there are the ones that got a degree, went into that field and realized they didn't like it. So they quit whatever job it was and went back to school to get another degree. Thats pretty ballsy, IMO; to start over almost at the beginning in order to do something you really want to do.
And then there's people like me, who said "forget you school! I do what I want!" and got a job before graduating.
[edit: I'm not saying these are the only types of people by any means, only that most of the people I went to school with fall into these categories.]
So yes, there are many people in America, and I assume around the world, who go through their education, careers and lives on auto pilot, but there are also many who put the top down, slam on the brakes, swerve into oncomming traffic, run the stop sign and laugh into the wind. It takes different strokes.
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quote:If you want to do something different, start by not letting your job define you.
*bravo*
quote:We have people living whole lives in cruise control, winding their way to cookie-cutter houses in the suburbs.
That's one form of life on cruise control. Another is ill-informed over-generalizations steeped in prejudice.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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with all due respect, I don't think Jim-Me's argument holds much water... the "If you want to do something different, start by not letting your job define you." seems pretty ridiculous to me
We spend 50% of our waking lives doing our "jobs" if we are putting in that much effort into something, it better be something that defines us.
You can't win big if you don't take risks... a lot of people are trying to get the things that you want, and if you don't put 100% effort, someone else will, and they'll take it.
Talking about kids and responsibilities are fine, but the kids came later didnt they? It was your decision to have the kids [and thus take on the added responsibility], if you truly wanted to be a musician, why not give 100% towards achieving that?
Alternatively, you could truly want to be a good father / husband /etc. But then, you should focus on that and then your job is a means to an end... but working as an engineer and pursuing a career in martial arts just seems impractical to me.
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posted
I think of education as tools, to get the life that you want.
If you don't know what you want to do, then you can spend your time aquiring the tools to do whatever it is when you do find out.
There is no situation where having more education is a bad thing, especially if you don't know what you want. If you do know and are ignoring that, then you should examine why. If it is because you're afraid of either poverty or bucking the trends, then you should work on that and pursue what you want. If it is because you have people depending on you and your dream will mean letting them down without recourse, then that's a dang fine reason to keep going to a job you don't especially enjoy.
The trap people get into is getting debt. No matter what life brings you, don't get into consumer debt and don't take on so big of a mortgage that you can't sell the house and be free and clear if you needed to. The only time someone is trapped by a job when they don't have kids is when they have crushing debt that they have to pay back. Grad school because you don't know what you want to do with life? That's fine - it's their life, and it isn't like they are spending it surfing. Going into debt to get a degree for a career they aren't sure they want? Really dumb - that's a trap.
So, in Katie's opinion, in order to be free, stay out of debt.
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posted
Dagonee, this is why I said: "Alternatively, you could truly want to be a good father / husband /etc. But then, you should focus on that and then your job is a means to an end..."
There's nothing wrong with a tolerable job that allows someone to provide well for their family... as long as the person doesnt claim that their career is their focus.
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posted
Why? Are the only choices to win big in a dream job or else publicly aknowledge oneself as a professional failure? Someone can't be good at a non-dream job and take pride in that?
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quote:I think of education as tools, to get the life that you want.
I think that there are bigger stakes in education than getting what you want. In fact, I think a good education necessarily shapes what the want may be, and it should shape your conception of what you ought to want. But I think we are going to disagree about this.
quote: What's wrong with a tolerable job that allows someone to provide well for their family?
Nothing, in my view, as long as you don't confuse your tolerable job for something that it's not.
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quote:Originally posted by Abhi: Dagonee, this is why I said: "Alternatively, you could truly want to be a good father / husband /etc. But then, you should focus on that and then your job is a means to an end..."
There's nothing wrong with a tolerable job that allows someone to provide well for their family... as long as the person doesnt claim that their career is their focus.
How is that at all relevant to your claim that Jim-Me's "start by not letting your job define you" doesn't hold water? His whole point was that one doesn't have to claim that one's career is one's whole focus.
Sounds like you actually agree with him.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
It's a fact of life (at least in our society) that a lot of people, with or without a family, are stuck in a job they don't like because that's what they can get and they can't afford to go/go back to school. Does that suck? Yes. Does that mean they should quit their job, and try to get another one? Maybe, maybe not. If they have no reasonable expectation of being able to get a different one, maybe not. My husband is currently in sales. Does he LOVE his job? No. (He loves the hours, though!) Does he hate it? Definitely not. He tolerates it and does it while he finishes school and looks for something else, although if he ends up making more with the commissions at this job than he can with an entry-level job in Accounting (what he loves and really wants to do), then he probably will have to consider carefully whether it's worth doing what he loves and possibly giving up the dream of buying a house for a while, or whether it's better to glide along in sales for a bit and be able to afford a house payment and payments on his student loans.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with either choice, and we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
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posted
you can, but: a. you should not claim that you're on your way to winning big without taking any risks. b. why would you want to do something for 50% of your waking life that you don't truly enjoy?
Posts: 142 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:why would you want to do something for 50% of your waking life that you don't truly enjoy?
So that you can really enjoy the other 50%?
So that your children can eat?
You act as if everyone can have their dream job just for asking. Newsflash: they can't.
There are a lot of things that need to get done on this planet that no one enjoys. They might find ways to derive satisfaction out of it - I can be happy changing a diaper because I'm helping care for a child, even though I hate changing diapers when considered in a vacuum.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:why would you want to do something for 50% of your waking life that you don't truly enjoy?
Because it's not about percentages. I think baseball is the most reasonably non-majority rule analogy that's in common conversation. In baseball, you only have to hit the ball three times out of ten to be a hall of famer. If you treat your spouse well and raise your kids thoughtfully and respect the community, does it really matter that you spent the balance of the rest of your life counting widgets?
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posted
Everyone can't have their dream job for asking, but you can have your dream job if you're working towards it and are willing to risk a few things...
and by gosh, i've already said this twice, and i'll say it again, if you're focus is taking care of family, then it doesnt matter what your job is. but if your focus is your career, then there isn't any point in doing something that you dislike.
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quote:but you can have your dream job if you're working towards it and are willing to risk a few things...
Where do you live? I think I want to move there.
This has not been my experience of the job market, based on most people I know and their hard work and the jobs they ended up with.
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quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: If you treat your spouse well and raise your kids thoughtfully and respect the community, does it really matter that you spent the balance of the rest of your life counting widgets?
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Why not? Because it is annoying to see other people happy when you think they shouldn't be?
Umm No... because I think you're deluding yourself and/or lying when you claim that you are on your way to hitting big when you are bunting.
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Where do you live? I think I want to move there.
This has not been my experience of the job market, based on most people I know and their hard work and the jobs they ended up with.
Come to California.
As long as you are focused on what you want to achieve, and work intelligently towards achieving it, you can.
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posted
You seem to be assuming that everybody's dream job involves "acheiving" something. It's not.
And even speaking just about those people who do want to acheive something, the thousands upon thousands of actors who, despite all their work and desire, never were able to break into the business is compelling evidence against your theory.
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quote:No... because I think you're deluding yourself and/or lying when you claim that you are on your way to hitting big when you are bunting.
But you don't know where they are going. Why the concern with what people tell themselves about their future?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Abhi: Everyone can't have their dream job for asking, but you can have your dream job if you're working towards it and are willing to risk a few things...
and by gosh, i've already said this twice, and i'll say it again, if you're focus is taking care of family, then it doesnt matter what your job is. but if your focus is your career, then there isn't any point in doing something that you dislike.
I second KQ's comment. There are any number of reasons why a job in your career track is not available. Further, most careers require due-paying jobs as prerequisites for the chance of having your dream job.
What if you want to be a judge? An executive in a large corporation? An astronaut? A database engineer for Google?
I have friends that want to do all four: in order to get there, they are stuck for years--possibly decades--in jobs they don't particularly enjoy.
...
What if your dream job is something that you're simply not qualified to do, and will never be qualified to do?
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Porteiro, you bring up a valid point... I didn't mention competency... if you want to be a fighter pilot, but have vision problems, that's clearly going to be a problem.
However, just because thousands upon thousands are trying to do something doesnt mean they are going about it *correctly*
What people tell themselves about their future [and what they do from there] affects not only that person, but society in general... in a nation where people are always excited to tell you what you can't do [gay marriage, etc], why is asking for ambition frowned upon?
Posts: 142 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:but society in general... in a nation where people are always excited to tell you what you can't do [gay marriage, etc], why is asking for ambition frowned upon?
This makes no sense.
It doesn't sound like you are decrying a lack of ambition. It sounds like you are decrying a number of things from misplaced work to self-delusion. What, exactly, do you think all of your friends should do in their careers in order to further society.
And I dare you to send an e-mail to them letting them know you have it all figured out.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: It doesn't sound like you are decrying a lack of ambition. It sounds like you are decrying a number of things from misplaced work to self-delusion.
perhaps I am.
quote: What, exactly, do you think all of your friends should do in their careers in order to further society.
Figure out why they are doing what they are doing, and not just play 'follow-the-leader'. Start by taking the leadership role in their own lives... achieve something... strive to leave the world better than they found it.
quote: And I dare you to send an e-mail to them letting them know you have it all figured out.
You know, maybe I don't have it "all figured out", but I do have a few things sorted out... and I do let my friends know what I think.
but since we're at daring, and such... do I get to double dare you? lol
Posts: 142 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:now we graduated from high school in just 2002, but a lot of them are doing MBA's, MCA's and other assorted degrees for absolutely no reason... somehow these seem like natural progressions to them... a friend of mine came to the US to do her MCA even though she dislikes her subject, and doesnt know what she wants to do with it.
Further, having degrees means that you have more options.
As education becomes more widespread, the basic prerequisites for most jobs are increasing. Jobs that used to require nothing more than a high school diploma to obtain now frequently require a minimum of an associate's degree. Many, many jobs now require a bachelor's degree; oftentimes, the company doing the hiring doesn't even specify what the degree needs to be in. Graduate degree prerequisites are increasingly less uncommon.
Pursuing an additional degree prior to seriously entering the job market is a safe--perhaps even wise--decision.
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quote:because I think you're deluding yourself and/or lying when you claim that you are on your way to hitting big when you are bunting.
You keep saying things like this. What I want to know is, who in this thread do you think is doing this?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Would that be the same Bay Area that experienced a sudden and severe economic downturn a couple years back? Where hundreds of people were out work, and couldn't even sell their expensive homes because the real estate market was suddenly so bad?
Perspective and planning for the future are both very good things. And they are among the reasons people get advanced degrees.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: What if your dream job is something that you're simply not qualified to do, and will never be qualified to do?
There's also the possibility that you tried, failed, and now have no chance at ever doing anything related to that again. Though we're getting away from the OP's scenario now.
So you find other dreams and other jobs. The two don't often coincide, though, and not many people are wealthy enough (or have parents wealthy enough) to wait for them to do so.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ahbi, by your standard of achievement, I know a *lot* of achievers, including someone in your area. Since he is far and away the leading "achiever" (again by your standards) I'll use him as an example.
He spent his college years working his tail off. He took some extra time and got his masters. He spent summers interning at Texas Instruments. They got patents on his work, he got underpaid and found out what it was like to live the life of "Office Space", not only 10 years before the movie came out, but before he even finished *college*. Like your friends, he had no clear idea other than "to be successful". He bounced around a few jobs, made some money, still didn't know what he wanted to do.
After a few years of this, some friends of his from college came along and, basically, said "we're making this new company, we could use someone with your skills, want in on the ground floor?" That company was Excite. He effectively retired at 32, doing a little venture capitalism on the side. After a while another company approached him to head up a new section. He said he would, and the understanding they reached was that he would take charge of new projects within the company and grow them until the reached a certain number of employees, then hand them off...because what he learned over the course of his experience is that he really enjoyed starting new companies... but not administering them. He didn't know this in college. He never would have guessed it. But he is now doing exactly what he loves most, solely because he wants to... and he is able to precisely because he was prepared when the opportunity came.
Oh... and you've heard of the other company, too. It's Google.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I've read that people are actually incapable of being happy all the time. When something that was once your fondest dream becomes your everyday reality, then it becomes your baseline of contentment, and you need something else to make you ecstatic.
We also tend to edit our memories to recall the big highs and lows, and skim over the boring stuff.
So I don't see anything wrong, at all, with someone choosing to do a job they don't really enjoy, and doing it on autopilot, so that they can spend the rest of their time doing something else that is awesome and more important to them. I don't think that such people are actually "less happy", day-to-day, than people who attain their fondest childhood dream, and I suspect that by setting aside a particular part of their life to be the boring baseline, they virtually assure themselves that they'll enjoy everything else that is more important to them more ...
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I believe in the baseline = normal thing. I think one of life's biggest problems is achieving your dreams and goals, because then you have to come up with all new ones. Very irritating.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I think our buddy the newbie here is either a skillful troll or, to put it nicely, incredibly naive. He reminds me of the people that go on American Idol and say that they deserve to win because, darn it, they just want it so bad. Like the people who are supporting their families with manual labor are doing it because they don't want to get paid a million dollars to trash a hotel room and drink until they puke.
The fact is, anyone who really thinks this is how the world works needs to see fewer movies and read more Darwin. The world isn't here to make all your wildest fantasies come true. The world doesn't care whether you live or die. Staying alive is your #1 priority on this planet, and if you happen to be a member of a species who is lucky enough to have 20% of your time to devote to anything else, you should weep with gratitude.
In other words, if you have any job that doesn't consist of spending 18 hours a day chasing rabbits and digging roots to stave off starvation, and that isn't your dream job, you're both phenomenally ungrateful and immensely short-sighted. My recommendation, as long as we're telling people what we really think, is that you stop watching Oprah and join us in the real world.
Posts: 563 | Registered: Feb 2006
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In defense of the Bay Area, I live in Chicago now, and the Bay Area felt much more open. Housing was expensive, but I never felt out of the loop because I didn't have a cousin or a friend in such and such industry; whereas in Chicago, it seems that there are more people connected in fishier ways, which crowds out or at least demoralizes any contenders.
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The fact is, anyone who really thinks this is how the world works needs to see fewer movies and read more Darwin. The world isn't here to make all your wildest fantasies come true. The world doesn't care whether you live or die. Staying alive is your #1 priority on this planet, and if you happen to be a member of a species who is lucky enough to have 20% of your time to devote to anything else, you should weep with gratitude.
In other words, if you have any job that doesn't consist of spending 18 hours a day chasing rabbits and digging roots to stave off starvation, and that isn't your dream job, you're both phenomenally ungrateful and immensely short-sighted. My recommendation, as long as we're telling people what we really think, is that you stop watching Oprah and join us in the real world.
This makes me wonder if we aren't all living in different worlds because I don't quite understand how the world which produced me also produced this poster.
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posted
I think the different worlds hypothesis is more appropriate, if we consider that worlds are made up partly by physical matter and partly by the stories we've been told to help us make sense of it, and our place in it.
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Irami: then you aren't in different worlds. However, I suspect that you have desire to understand his point of view, and a little empathy would clear up the confusion for you.
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