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I am so messed up.

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Dana, we love you dearly. Please don't leave us openings like that. It isn't fair.

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Hi dkw,

My good friend B and I have been talking, and we were wondering what the more liberal Christian traditions have to say on the subject of good people going to Hell. I know the Catholics have Purgatory which takes care of most of those problems and the LDS seem to have the problem taken care of but in slightly different manner. But, what about good people who of some non-christian religion, say Hindusim, or those who have a specific hang-ups with a bit of theology or the whole thing for that matter.

For two concrete examples, I give you my Great Aunt Ruth, who was Mormon for a bit. She has a specific logical problem with the acceptance of the Trinity. She is OK with Christ being the son of God, and better than an ordinary person but not with him being God. At the same time I think she has sincerely wrestled with it and given it more thought than my mother ever has about her blind cookie cutter faith.

For a second example I give you B's co-workers in academic discipline of Planetary science. Some of which, while being good people in pursuit of truth and Truth, are athiests even though they do not actively discourage faith or have problems with people who do believe in a Creator.

I don't know if this actually falls into Atonement theory or not, but you are the only expert I really know to ask.

AJ

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I'm not really familiar enough with the others to comment, but I'm guessing that by carrying most any of them to a logical conclusion one is likely to put oneself outside of mainstream Christian thinking.

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Yes and no. Part of it depends on how you define “mainstream Christian thinking.” All of the positions I listed are held by at least some theologians connected to mainstream Christian denominations. (UMC, UCC, PUSA, ELCA, etc.)

But in fact, almost ANY belief carried to it’s logical extreme is likely to put you outside of mainstream Christian thinking. One of my favorite systematic theology texts approaches the subject by identifying each doctrine/belief statement as balanced between two opposing disbeliefs. If you go too far in either direction you’re into heresy, but as long as you stake yourself somewhere in the middle there’s some room to walk around. (One of the classic examples of this is the statement “Jesus saves” as related to the question of the goodness of humanity. In order to affirm that Jesus saves you cannot believe either that humanity is not in need of salvation/able to save itself OR that humanity is unsalvageable. Too far in either direction, and you’re off the chart.)

Banna, I don’t think I can do justice to this and fit it in a post. But I’ll give you a few of the points on which I hang my hat. First, I don’t believe that Hell is a physical place with flames and instruments of torture. I’m much closer to the Hell is separation from God position. Heaven, then, is perfect communion with God. Neither of these is solely restricted to the afterlife, both can be experienced, to some extent, in this world. I don’t believe, therefore, that Salvation is primarily concerned with what happens after you die. That said, I don’t believe that death is the end of existence, OR that God’s love and covenant with humanity is limited by death. (Or by life, angels, rulers, things present, things to come, etc. )

I do believe that perfect communion with God is only achievable through Christ. Remember though that I am a classic, Trinitarian Christian – I believe that Christ is the incarnate word of God. Therefore, I’m not convinced that it’s necessary to reference the historical person, Jesus of Nazareth, in order to be talking about the second person of the trinity. (However, I do believe that the historical person, Jesus of Nazareth, was the incarnation (en-fleshment) of God, and that this is the only time such a thing has happened in the history of the universe. And by universe I mean all that is, was, and ever will be. “Parallel universes” and all other scientific/science fiction possibilities included. (Not that I’m saying God couldn’t choose to become incarnate again, just that I don’t believe it has happened, but that once.)) Err…where was I? Oh yeah, other religions. Ultimately, I believe that God will save whom God will save, and that God wills to save everybody. So no, I don’t think anyone is damned for not getting their theological ducks in the right order. I believe that your great-aunt who can’t accept the idea of the trinity is wrong, but I don’t think she’s going to hell because of it.

(Aside to Banna: remind me to give you my “macaroni & cheese = eternal life” sermon someday.)

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I believe that Christ is the incarnate word of God. Therefore, I’m not convinced that it’s necessary to reference the historical person, Jesus of Nazareth, in order to be talking about the second person of the trinity.

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We recognize science as a legitimate interpretation of God’s natural world. We affirm the validity of the claims of science in describing the natural world, although we preclude science from making authoritative claims about theological issues. We recognize technology as a legitimate use of God’s natural world when such use enhances human life and enables all of God’s children to develop their God-given creative potential without violating our ethical convictions about the relationship of humanity to the natural world.

In acknowledging the important roles of science and technology, however, we also believe that theological understandings of human experience are crucial to a full understanding of the place of humanity in the universe. Science and theology are complementary rather than mutually incompatible. We therefore encourage dialogue between the scientific and theological communities and seek the kind of participation that will enable humanity to sustain life on earth and, by God’s grace, increase the quality of our common lives together.

[from The Social Principles of the United Methodist Church]

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Now, that's a viewpoint that IS directly contradicted in scripture. EXCEPT (and this is a big one) that I think we're told that the best way to "spread the word" is to live well and be an example. In other words, the stuff about "don't hide your light under a bushel" doesn't necessarily translate to "shine your light in other people's faces when they're just trying to see for themselves what the heck is out there."

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Q: Does the Jewish religion believe in heaven and hell, and how do they decide who is going to each?

A: well, there's a famous jewish saying that if you ask 3 jews a question you'll get 4 answers. given that, i've been taught and tend to believe
that there is a heaven and hell. (practically) everybody goes to hell and basically serves a sentence of varying lengths to atone. every sabbath, however, everybody gets to spend in heaven. that way the people in hell have some hope and the strength to continue. after the sentence is served, you go to heaven unless you're truly irredeemably wicked. in fact, it's considered that the longest sentences are a year-- beyond that and you're there forever. that's why you're not supposed to mourn longer than 11 months-- either the person you're mourning for is already in heaven or there's an implication that they're irredeemably wicked. i don't know what exactly the tortures of hell are like-- i haven't really looked into it. it may simply be a c. s. lewis-esque cutting off of God'spresence. non-jews go through the same process-- they don't have to follow the laws the jews do because they're not jewish (the whole chosen people thing). heaven is not reserved for jews.

having said that, the afterlife is not a real big driver in jewish theology. the status of the community is really considered more important. so the whole heaven/hell thing isn't nearly as well-developed as in christian theology.

that was probably more than you asked for.

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I have decided that this is quite prevalent in all of the churches we grew
up in -- not with respect to Jews in particular, but with everyone! They were always telling us what the "world" believed, how it acted, and why it did the things it did. It seems to me, now that I KNOW many people who exist outside the church, that the church was completely wrong on many counts.

Also of interest is that when I mentioned this to my mother, she said that she also knows a lot of people outside the church (from work) and she thinks the church is right about them! So I don't know if the difference is grad students vs. nurses, or whether my mom and I just see things differently.

Also of interest (to support my position) when Pastor Q was teaching that anti-science class, he started explaining how non-Christians rely on evolution because it allows them to explain the world without God, and that's why they cling to it so desperately, because if evolution was
wrong, then they would need to face the fact that God exists. I asked him how many non-Christians he knows who hold this opinion, and he said (quite
defensively) "Well, none, but I know that's why they believe it." ARG. Don't tell me what other people believe when you haven't even talked to them about it!

The thing he seemed to fail to understand is that science is not a religion. It is a way of thinking and finding out how our natural world
works. If evolution is at some point proven to be wrong, all scientists are NOT going to throw up their hands and wail, "Alas, I am now confronted with the existence of God." Rather they are going to look at the new data they've got and try to find a new explanation for how it fits together. Some of us see God in the explanation, and some don't, but no real
scientist (except, perhaps, for the occasional crank) thinks that science can reveal anything about God one way or the other.

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Y'know, I had been reading this thread with great interest, but hadn't felt that I had anything to add. Christian theology is not one of my fortes.

AJ, I don't disagree with what she said, overall. Mostly some details/semantic quibbles.

Because, after all, this is absolutely true:

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if you ask 3 jews a question you'll get 4 answers

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First of all, Jews don't believe in "hell" -- but that's really a semantic issue. Keep in mind that only fairly recently in the 3500+ years Jews have been arguing about this has the discussion been in English. Many concepts don't translate well. (Some use the word "hell," some "purgatory" -- some use both interchangeably.)

I would say that your comparison to Purgatory is a good one -- it's a lot closer to the Jewish concept of Gehennom (aka Gehenna). OTOH, some tiny fraction of people are irredeemably evil, and they suffer eternally. Jewish theology is not terribly concerned with the details of that torment.

From here:

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When a person dies and goes to heaven, the judgment is not arbitrary and externally imposed. Rather, the soul is shown two videotapes. The first video is called "This is Your Life!" Every decision and every thought, all the good deeds, and the embarrassing things a person did in private is all replayed without any embellishments. It's fully bared for all to see. That's why the next world is called Olam HaEmet - "the World of Truth," because there we clearly recognize our personal strengths and shortcomings, and the true purpose of life. In short, Hell is not the Devil with a pitchfork stoking the fires.

The second video depicts how a person's life "could have been..." if the right choices had been made, if the opportunities were seized, if the potential was actualized. This video - the pain of squandered potential - is much more difficult to bear. But at the same time it purifies the soul as well. The pain creates regret which removes the barriers and enables the soul to completely connect to God.

Not all souls merit Gehennom. It is for people who have done good but need to be purified. A handful of people are too evil for Gehennom, and they are punished eternally.

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Heaven is where the soul experiences the greatest possible pleasure - the feeling of closeness to God. Of course not all souls experience that to the same degree. It's like going to a symphony concert. Some tickets are front-row center; others are back in the bleachers. Where your seat is located is based on the merit of your good deeds - e.g. giving charity, caring for others, prayer.

A second factor in heaven is your understanding of the environment. Just like at the concert, a person can have great seats but no appreciation of what's going on. If a person spends their lifetime elevating the soul and becoming sensitive to spiritual realities (through Torah study), then that will translate into unimaginable pleasure in heaven. On the other hand, if life was all about pizza and football, well, that can get pretty boring for eternity.

The existence of the afterlife is not stated explicitly in the Torah itself, because as human beings we have to focus on our task in this world. Though awareness of an eternal reward can also be an effective motivator.

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Chizkiyah said: There are 12 months of judgment for the wicked in purgatory (Gehenom). Six months are suffered in heat, and the other six months in cold. God first places them in the heat, and then puts them in the snow.

The Torah commentator Aitz Yosef (19th century Bialystok) explains that there are two distinct places of purgatory. "Gehenom of Fire" is a punishment for all sins that were done with passion and energy against God. "Gehenom of Snow" is designed for all sins that are due to laziness and lack of energy. In addition, the punishment of snow is given for all good actions done without zeal and excitement.

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Our Sages say that if we took all of our life's pleasures, every one of them, and all the pleasures of everyone in this world, and brought them all together, the total wouldn't be worth even one second in the World to Come, the pleasure of being close to God.

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Hell is a place God created to help us take care of the mistakes we didn't correct in this world. It is called Gehenom. But don't be afraid. It's not a place of devils and pitchforks, and it's not forever. If it is God's judgment that a person has to enter Gehenom, the maximum amount of time spent there would be one Jewish year. A person can be there a split second, an entire Jewish year, or somewhere in between. That is the reason that we say Kaddish, the mourner's prayer, for 11 months. We assume that our loved ones would never be there an entire year. Ideally, we want to by-pass it all together.

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I've also heard the "Sabbaths off."

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A few extra paragraphs are recited after the evening service at the conclusion of Shabbos. This is done to extend the Shabbos into the weekday. According to the Midrash, the souls that have been condemned to hell, are granted a reprieve on the Shabbos. They do not return to hell until after the Jews have completed the evening prayers after Shabbos. By lengthening the prayers, we extend their resting time. It is proper to have a meal after Shabbos to honor the Shabbos when it leaves. This meal, which should preferably include bread, is called "Melava Malka", or "Escorting of the (Shabbos) Queen."

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. . . as [scripture] says (Isaiah 60:21), "And your nations are all righteous, they shall always inherit the land." Similarly, the righteous of the gentile nations have a portion in the world to come.

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On the other hand, if life was all about pizza and football, well, that can get pretty boring for eternity.

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How does this tie in to a Gentile being declared a "Righteous person" by a council of Rabbis (I think in Jerusalem) The only example I can think of is Oskar Schindler, but I know there are others. Does this just mean that that person was only in Gahenna (sp?) for an instant?

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As far as I know, this is more by way of showing our gratitude for the many lives Schindler saved (and many others -- there is an orchard at Yad Vashem (the Holocaust museum in Jerusalem), with a tree planted for each known gentile who saved Jewish lives during the Holocaust). It's not a religious "pardon" or something like that -- we don't do that. Actually, I don't know who is on the commission that decides. Likely only some are rabbis.

[ November 12, 2003, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]

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In other words, the stuff about "don't hide your light under a bushel" doesn't necessarily translate to "shine your light in other people's faces when they're just trying to see for themselves what the heck is out there."

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In other words, the stuff about "don't hide your light under a bushel" doesn't necessarily translate to "shine your light in other people's faces when they already have a light of their own

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