posted
I have, on occasion, made reference to made plans for re-education camps when I become dictator of the world. Alas, it would probably not be practical, since even a dictator must retain the loyalty of the army and police, and theists are everywhere. But let's assume for a moment that I have enough fanatically atheist storm troopers to enforce my will. One of them is holding a gun to your head. Would you deny your faith, and live? Or would you say "Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me", and die, and send your family off to the camps?
Of course, it is a hard question to answer; so if you would, tell me what you'd like to do, and also what you think you'd actually do.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
If you kill me for standing by my faith, I get a free pass through the pearly gates.
NOT a hard choice at all. Since I will then use my otherworldly powers to make you think you're being rectally invaded by an army of fanatical, cthonic lemmings.
posted
I like to think I would stand for my beliefs with a gun held to my head, no matter what beliefs were being questioned, religious or not. In actuality, it would depend on which I thought would do more good towards overthrowing you and returning freedom to the land, standing and dying or living to fight another day. If I could be sent to your camps and run a Hogan's Hero's type resistance, I would do that. But if it came to a point where my choices were to lose my integrity and live or keep it and die, or where my death would be a rallying point against your regime, I do believe I would take the bullet.
(Added: Note that I think I could renounce God without losing my integrity, if I was actively working to overthrow you and needed the cover. I do not believe that honesty and integrity are the same thing.)
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
How would you answer your own question, KoM? If you lived in a theocracy devoted to the worship of the Invisible Pink Unicorn -- may Her hooves never be shod -- and someone held a gun to your head and instructed you to devote yourself to a life of worshipping the IPU or die on the spot, how would you like to reply? How would you reply?
Added: Incidentally, I don't think I would die for my atheism. I'd play along, and then probably try to flee the country later.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
You'd get a lot more "converts" to atheism if you offered them money and secure positions in the bureaucracy for denouncing their beliefs.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Does that mean that you are willing not to believe in God? If so then welcome to the team that will be proven right in the end. Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I'd sign up for ElJay's Heros. Hurry up, would you? I think that Christianity works better as an underground religion anyway. Constantine did us no favors.
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posted
You mentioned something about my family. What would happen to them, exactly, if I stood by my faith or denounced it under threat?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Advent 115: Does that mean that you are willing not to believe in God? If so then welcome to the team that will be proven right in the end.
posted
And how would you know? If we atheists are right, there probably won't be many messages coming from beyond the grave saying "Hey! Everyone! The atheists were right!"
posted
If you were an atheist, why wouldn't you renounce Atheism and sign on with the IPU(mHHnbs)?
If it's just between you and the regime, I mean. Excepting threats to friends and loved ones, why not renounce it and live, if you're an Atheist? Pride?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Well, lets see. Why would it be so bad if we are right?
I mean I know that if I'm wrong God probably won't be to pissed off. After all I still live a good and helpful life. I just choose not to do kind acts for fear that I will end up in hell. I do them because that is just who I am.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
twinky, are you discounting the possibility of ghosts if there is no god? Couldn't some people's life essense hang around in some way and communicate from beyond the grave but not from heaven/hell/purgatory/limbo?
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Advent, Who are you talking to? I don't get where half of your questions and answers are coming from.
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posted
I could do more good by renouncing my faith and living. Eventually your reign of terror will end. In the mean time I shall teach my faith to my children, and their children in secret.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Advent 115: I mean I know that if I'm wrong God probably won't be to pissed off. After all I still live a good and helpful life. I just choose not to do kind acts for fear that I will end up in hell. I do them because that is just who I am.
To paraphrase someone I like and respect: if you're going on about how you're taking the high road, you aren't actually taking the high road.
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: twinky, are you discounting the possibility of ghosts if there is no god? Couldn't some people's life essense hang around in some way and communicate from beyond the grave but not from heaven/hell/purgatory/limbo?
I was indeed discounting that possibility for the purposes of my little joke.
But yes, given that I don't believe in souls, I do also discount the possibility of "life essence" hanging around after death.
Added: I'd say that when it comes to my sense of self, I'm very Euclidean.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Wups, a whole bunch of replies. OK, so I see it wouldn't be that useful to actually ask, then; it would have to be thought police. Still, perhaps the opportunity to recant could be out in public, for everyone to see; that should make it more difficult to lie about it. Then the thought police could watch for secret prayer meetings and whatnot.
Rakeesh, children whose parents were shot for refusing to recant are obviously rather dangerous. I mean, talk about making the state unpopular in the theist demographic! So concentration camps are really the best option, from my point of view. I have to take into account the feelings of my storm troopers; nobody likes shooting children, after all. But a brain-dirtying camp (this is, of course, the opposite of brain-washing) could perhaps solve the problem. Though of course, even if released, the thought police will have to be keeping an eye on them.
And yes, I don't see why I shouldn't bow down before the IPU, if it was that or die; though, like most of you, I'd be taking to the hills with my trusty "Anarchist Manual" right afterwards.
quote:You'd get a lot more "converts" to atheism if you offered them money and secure positions in the bureaucracy for denouncing their beliefs.
Damn, he's on to us!
quote: wouldn't be satisfied with merely dying in protest. I'd start (or join) an underground, and hunt you down like a dog.
Actually, you would not get the chance, as you already have a fairly high place on my little list. Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: I think your hypothetical needs a bit of refining, KoM. Really, the price of a bullet to the head is actually fairly low.
A reverse-inquisition would probably be quite a bit more effective in terms of reeducation.
Perhaps so, but it would also be much more expensive to run. Lead is cheap. Besides, hard as I try, I'm just naturally a nice guy. Inquisitions are so, I dunno, theist.
More seriously, I'm not really that interested in whether the theist converts or not; that's more the concern of people who believe in immortal souls. All I want is freedom from religion; a dead theist is as good as a former theist in this connection, and probably much easier to accomplish.
As for agnostics, eh, whatever. Weak sisters that they are, they're at least unlikely to bother me by making a church. Anyway, not everyone can be a stormtrooper.
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Is that even possible? Once your stormtroopers tire of your regime, won't some other type of religion just naturally evolve?
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Well, I suppose it's possible, but I think the experiment worth running. I find it interesting in a purely anthropological sense : Would people with access to modern technology and science develop their own religion? Now, I know that there are modern cults, but several things are worth noting : The only one with any really major following in the west, Scientology, offers very considerable monetary rewards for the people running it. The rest seem limited to a few hundred people in a hill commune somewhere; and even at that, they tend to pray on people who have believed some religion from birth, they're just changing which one. If there was no pool of people convinced of the existence of a god, but unsatisfied with their current church, would such cults be able to form?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Guys, Peter renounced the big guy 3 times and he's the rock upon which god built his church. You won't go to hell for renouncing god whilest secretly crossing your fingers.
So lie, and make your resistance. Heck, I might even join you. Though I won't renounce The FSM. I've been touched by his noodly appendage.
posted
An Atheist Fundamentalist. Pushing your belief system on others, wouldn't that make you guilty of your own laws?
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Would people with access to modern technology and science develop their own religion?
I think they would, but obviously not because of the same reasons [that you might assume]. Instead of being based on superstition, fear, or ignorance, it would be based on the desire to believe in something greater than the perceived reality set before a person.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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Well then my answer would depend on the nature of the camp, really. Is anything going to happen to my children and loved ones in response to my refusal? How intense would this 'reeducation' be?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Depends, if I can get a high place in the Party then I'll recant whatever it is is illegal and join you.
Though it'ld have to be logical/reasonable, like you can't get me to give up having sex kind of thing (not like i get any anyways )
Though sometimes there are things worth dying for it all depends how the circumstances go, if I believe that my cause is best sevred with you then that is where I'll go. World Order, Peace, contentment, security, food. What more can one ask for?
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posted
It would depend...I would probably recant, although it would be a lie in my heart of hearts, and I think that God would forgive me sooner than I would forgive myself.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Oh heck, I'd probably just strap a bomb to myself, load my trailer with fertilizer and diesel fuel, and visit your headquarters.
Or...maybe I'd do something really crazy.
hype-pathetically speaking of course.
Seriously, though, I'd love to hear this regime's ideas on how to combat domestic terrorists who would be gunning for you at every turn.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I just remembered that National Atheists Day is coming up. April Fools' Day, indeed...
I'll just say something before I leave to class again, if I die before you guys, I'll make sure to post from the beyond to let you guys know that there is a God. I trust Hatrack will still be going on by then.
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Oh heck, I'd probably just strap a bomb to myself, load my trailer with fertilizer and diesel fuel, and visit your headquarters.
See, now that's just plain silly. Why use yourself up with one attack?
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Im must KoM, this is a great thread. I myself, would deny it, since I really don't have a religion, but gradually let science explain everything. All (in my very controversial opinion, that none should heed) religion does, is give people a false beliefe so that they aren't afraid their entire lives. It also causes hatred, predjudice and war. It have its good sides though.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Part of me really just wants to understand why you'd want to shoot someone in the head for disagreeing with you.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I'd like to think I would die for my beliefs. However, since your pathetic little regime would start somewhere that is not here, good luck catching me or my kin alive.
Posts: 880 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Altariel of Dorthonion: if I die before you guys, I'll make sure to post from the beyond to let you guys know that there is a God. I trust Hatrack will still be going on by then.
A. How would we know it was really you?
B. How would we know you weren't some mischevious ghosty-thing, embittered and disillusioned, and trying to lessen your immortal grief by spreading it around?
C. If it all does come through though, be sure to let us know about the moose situation over there. Sometimes, I look into their big moosey eyes and see nothing but soulless drooling, but other times, I see a spark of crazy. That suggests personality, and the theistic implications have been driving me crazy. No biggie, or anything, but if blissing gets boring one day, drop a line.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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