posted
Really? What comforts you about the unknown?
I ACCEPT the unknown, but I regard it as a blank space to be filled in. I don't look to it for satisfaction.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Alas, it would probably not be practical, since even a dictator must retain the loyalty of the army and police, and theists are everywhere.
A simple solution to that would be to set yourself up as a God figure (with or without a promise of the afterlife).
Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005
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The fact there is MORE to know is a source of great joy to me. That's the sense in which I meant "comfort." Not freedom from anxiety, but positive joy at the anticipation of there being more to learn...eventually.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet: Part of me really just wants to understand why you'd want to shoot someone in the head for disagreeing with you.
Not so much for disagreeing, as for just being completely alien. I don't see how theists can possibly think as they do; I'm half convinced there are extra-terrestrial parasites sitting in their brains and making them spout absolute nonsense. I also find their obtuseness remarkably annoying. Also, it is not so long ago that atheists were fair game; it might be best to get 'em before they get me.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Not so much for disagreeing, as for just being completely alien. I don't see how theists can possibly think as they do; I'm half convinced there are extra-terrestrial parasites sitting in their brains and making them spout absolute nonsense.
Interestingly, many men have said something similar to this regarding their understanding of women. Thankfully they didn't go around shooting everyone that refused to renounce their femininity.
quote:I don't see how theists can possibly think as they do
Isn't that a failing on your part?
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Your hypothetical reminded me of this story (starts in the third paragraph), which has always impressed me. Of course, its positive effect me is only possible because the threat of death wasn't carried out. Hmm. Also from the article, there is this quote:
quote:It may not always be easy, convenient, or politically correct to stand for truth and right, but it is always the right thing to do.
There are lots of examples of Mormons (particularly missionaries) who were killed for not renouncing their religion.
I don't think I'd renounce my religion in your hypothetical. I would lament the effect, not the least the effect on you, my murderer, but I think I'd still stay true. I've been in difficult situations before, not where my life was in danger, but certainly where I felt threatened. I was surprised how easy it was to remain true to my beliefs.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:There are lots of examples of Mormons (particularly missionaries) who were killed for not renouncing their religion.
I heard a lot of "examples" of this while on my mission, but nothing actually verified. Do you have any sources? I ask because there is a huge body of Mormon Urban Legend lore. They even teach about it as part of a BYU humanities course.
NOTE: I'm not disputing that Mormons have been persecuted and even killed simply for being Mormon. I'm just skeptical of stories of the gun-to-your-head, renounce-or-die variety.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
In general, studies have shown that people are remarkably stubborn when it comes to making conscious moral decisions. If you give them a "convert or die" choice, a surprising number will choose to die.
When people deviate or abandon their stated morals, they usually do so in situations where the choice is not so clear-cut, or where they are not AWARE that this choice is being presented to them. Few people knowingly sacrifice their principles when it's actually put that way.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:I'm half convinced there are extra-terrestrial parasites sitting in their brains and making them spout absolute nonsense.
It's a very small leap from believing this to believing in a God, you know.
Well, I dunno. After all, you can in principle cut up their heads and do a physical check for parasites. Nothing supernatural about 'em.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by smitty: So you're saying be subtle about it. Except that "de-conversion" process is already happening.
If a "de-conversion" process is already happening, it's in people's own heads as a reaction to current society. In other words, I don't think there's any grand conspiracy to de-convert people.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
It occurred to me that I didn't actually answer the question: if a loaded gun was to my head and the threat of death hanging over me if I refused, would I renounce my religion if that was the only choice at hand?
Of course not. First of all, I believe that some principles are worth dying for and a few are even worth killing for. Second, as the saying goes, "To die would be an awfully big adventure," and since I'm going to face that adventure one way or another, I'd really rather go out with a helpful finale.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by smitty: So you're saying be subtle about it. Except that "de-conversion" process is already happening.
No, actually, Tom is saying that either method would be effective for my stated goals. Shooting people might be quicker, though.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: Do you have any sources? I ask because there is a huge body of Mormon Urban Legend lore. They even teach about it as part of a BYU humanities course.
I was thinking specifically about examples like Jedidiah Grant and Parley Pratt, both of whom were killed by mobs while on missions, but maybe it's stretching it to consider it a "renounce or die" situation. I specifically wasn't thinking about the abundant Mormon legends of missionaries refusing to renounce and then being saved by Three Nephites (for example). <edit> Check that, Jedidiah Grant died of pneumonia he contracted on a mission</edit> <edit> and Parley's story isn't exactly glamorous, although I do like the record that his final words were a testimony of the truthfulness of the church </edit>
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Um. What I'm actually saying is that violent conversion is more likely to create fanatically dedicated opponents unless you actually DO manage to kill off the entire opposition.
But please don't attempt to speculate on my opinions regarding your baffling little genocidal crusade, no matter how hypothetical and tongue-in-cheek it may be. I consider it in poor taste.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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King of Men: Getting to the heart of the question, you are already free of religion. If I were in your shoes, I'd tire quickly of theists and just leave them alone and fill my life with other endeavors. Some theists let atheists alone. Others feel that they have a mandate from God to preach to atheists. But, what possible reason do you have to "re-educate" theists. Live and let live.
In your philosophy what do you care what others believe? Is it to lead them to a happier life? Is it because you are scared of the very few theists who would kill you for not believing as they do? Why kill almost all of the world just to get rid of a few dangerous people?
This has always been my difficulty with you from the beginning. I think that I would like and respect you a lot if it were not for your constant attempts to tear theists down. I cannot respect that in a person. It is utterly unattractive.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
You know, considering his stated goal is something akin to the Anti-Christ in the Left Behind series, I wondered for a second if that might not be KOM's real identity. But I figure the real Anti-Christ would actually be charming and persuasive, at least superficially.
Posts: 880 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Someday, I'm going to have to order that whole series and read it. I read the first book, and the writing was pretty cruddy, but I figure if I can make it through all ten books of L. Ron Hubbard's Mission Earth series, I should be able to tackle Left Behind, too. And I liked the book The Seven Last Years, so this could be fun as well.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I'm not sure the writing ever does get that much better. I was reading it more for the premise than for the writing ability of the authors. I'm a sucker for post-apocolyptic earth stories, and for religious stories. Can you get it from the library?
Posts: 880 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Well, presumably the Anti-Christ is going to be lying low for a while before the Rapture, figuring out which tactics work and which don't, sending the creeping tentacles of his influence through American society. Kind of like Peter.
quote:you are already free of religion
Yes, but not free from religion. And as for your live-and-let-live approach, well, that's very nice, to be sure. But the historical record of Christianity does not fill me with confidence that the other side is willing to do the same. I would prefer to get them before they get me.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Lisa, Left Behind gets worse as the series goes on, at least the books that I read. Painfully bad, though I'm not sure they're bad enough to read in a group like Eye of Argon was at KamaCon.
But there are quite a few people who believe it's a relatively accurate portrayal of what the "last days" will be like. (I don't). So in the interest of learning what other people think, people might want to read the first few.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I agree that it's an interesting analysis and fictionalization, but I'm not going to use it as my guide, should I get stuck down here.
Posts: 880 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I read the first six Left Behind books. If the events in those books actually happened, I think I would become a Christian in the sense of believing the theology to be true. However, I would loathe and despise God.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by smitty: I'm not sure the writing ever does get that much better. I was reading it more for the premise than for the writing ability of the authors. I'm a sucker for post-apocolyptic earth stories, and for religious stories. Can you get it from the library?
I assume so. You can get graphic novels from the library. Anything in print, just about.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I think the storyline is cool. But then, I'm a science fiction fan. Dark fantasy, too. And yes, I do get a little frisson of terror from knowing that there are people who don't see it as any kind of fiction, but that's probably the case with other stories as well. I prefer not to consider such things.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Amanecer, then you wouldn't be a Christian. There were people in the book that absolutely believed in Christ. They just didn't like him.
Posts: 880 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I read all Ten Books and I find them deeply disturbing (Mission Earth) at times and I wished that the Voltar Confederacy finds an enemy civilization capable of destroying them.
Also the constant freudian and homosexuality referances were part of the disturbingness. C'mon no one wants to hear of a situation where a psyco lesbian tortues you until you agree to become openly gay.
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posted
If God fits my definition of the devil then it really doesn't matter whether he's God or not, or if I'm right or wrong, he's still the Devil to me
As far as re-education and all that, I doubt you'd be able to organize and maintain such an authoritarian regime. It does take a certain measure of charisma you know, and I'm not sure insulting potential allies (agnostics) is a good way to start.
*Seizes power from KoM and turns the regime into a theocracy just to spite him* Posts: 459 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
When the books started gathering up a lot of hype a few years back, I picked up the first. I got through it but didn't attempt any of the others. I couldn't invest myself in it at all, probably because my personal beliefs differ dramatically from, well, the premise of the series.
(Sorry, KoM. I realize that this has little to do with your initial post.)
Posts: 866 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by smitty: So you're saying be subtle about it. Except that "de-conversion" process is already happening.
Is it? Got any data to back that assertion up? It's certainly happening in Canada -- Statistics Canada's data shows that the percentage of non-religious people in Canada is growing (over 16% now). I have not seen data that indicates a comparable trend in the U.S.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:I have, on occasion, made reference to made plans for re-education camps when I become dictator of the world. Alas, it would probably not be practical, since even a dictator must retain the loyalty of the army and police, and theists are everywhere. But let's assume for a moment that I have enough fanatically atheist storm troopers to enforce my will. One of them is holding a gun to your head. Would you deny your faith, and live? Or would you say "Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me", and die, and send your family off to the camp
You know what? I'm getting a little tired of hypotheticals and snide advocacy of genocide and/or use of concentration camps by posters (or, more specifically, a single poster) on this board.
Some things aren't funny, and to hear constantly from someone that, if they could order the world as they would, the vast majority of people in the world would be forced to deny their faith or be shot or "re-educated" is one of them.
The hypothetical question "would you die rather than deny your faith" is certainly a valid one for discussion. And the way it was phrased wouldn't necessarily be bad if the poster hadn't made it very clear in numerous threads that he's actually serious about it.
Can we please stop pretending that expressing desires to commit genocide is a polite form of discussion?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
While I largely agree, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for a moment:
Is it substantively different from professing a belief in the Book of Revelations? IIRC, all of the non-believers are supposed to die horrific deaths, and since it's a Christian text, "all of the non-believers" constitute more than two-thirds of the present population of the world.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Is it substantively different from professing a belief in the Book of Revelations?
Yes, it is. The belief that something in particular will happen is not the same as the desire to send ones stormtroopers around putting bullets in the brains of all theists.
It should also be noted that lots of believers will die horrific deaths as well. And also that the meaning of Revelation is one of the most disputed aspects of Christianity.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
At least one poster on this board has repeatedly advocated working to hurry the End Times along. Would you put that poster in this category?
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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You're drawing a distinction between hoping that God will bring about genocide soon and wishing to be able to perpetrate it oneself -- am I reading you right?
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Yes. (Edit: Actually, I was drawing a distinction between believing it will happen and helping it to happen, but I also draw the distinction between hoping (because I really believe what is being hoped for is the second coming, not the evil that predates it) and carrying out.)
Minor wording question: Are you equating "hoping that God will bring about genocide soon" with "professing a belief in the Book of Revelations"?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
That being said, you said you largely agree with my original post. Does this Revelation analysis mean that you don't think someone should constantly write on the board about how they want to help bring about the End Times? Or that the presence of one excuses the other?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
The user agreement contains specific protections for religious beliefs but contains no such protections for atheists or agnostics. If I take the agreement as written, someone writing about wanting to help the End Times along is not in violation, whereas someone advocating genocide against theists is in violation. I think that's an oversight and that the user agreement should be amended; I don't think it's okay to advocate genocide of nonbelievers any more than it's okay to advocate genocide of believers, and I do think that trying to hurry the End Times along or professing a desire for them to arrive soon is advocating genocide. As I've said here before, we have laws about very extreme instances of advocating genocide (and hate speech in general) here in Canada, and I support those laws.
I also think that the user agreement as written is violated frequently on this forum, and not just by the obvious names that may come to your mind. However, I have no way of knowing what kind of private action Pop may or may not take in each case, and I'm also aware that the interpretation and application of the user agreement is up to kacard, OSC, and Pop. It isn't my place to tell them how to run their forum. On the other hand, I'm entitled to express my opinion provided I don't violate the user agreement, so I think there's a balance to be struck between freedom of expression and tact when it comes to public discussion and/or criticism of the forum itself.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:You know, considering his stated goal is something akin to the Anti-Christ in the Left Behind series, I wondered for a second if that might not be KOM's real identity. But I figure the real Anti-Christ would actually be charming and persuasive, at least superficially.
I'm semi-convinced that KOM is actually a rabid Christian who posts as he does to discredit atheists, that being just about the only effect of his postings.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
I'd like to point out that Revelation also includes quite a few mass killings of believers too. Lots of people die in Rebvelation, some sooner some later. Not that many actually survive.
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