posted
FC, anyone? I don't get it. If people are using the word correctly, I don't understand why this would upset someone.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
*sigh* Because I think Dan Brown is a travesty of a writer, and I wish that "cromulent", for instance, were more popular in its place. Do you seriously not understand this?
I'm being snobbish about writing. Surely, surely, of all people, you can understand that.
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posted
Dang. I answered that, and the thread was deleted.
Squicky, no one is saying the word is made up. I specifically said that was not what we were saying. NOT made up. REAL word.
HOWEVER, it is a word popularized by a piece of crappy fiction.
The issue was not that the woman used a word that was incorrect. (again, note the use of the word NOT here, that you missed in the last thread... NOT incorrect). The issue is that the woman would never have used that word had she not been influenced by garbage writing, in particular garbage writing by a hack named Dan Brown.
So, to sum up. Symbology = real word. Use of symbology = influenced by bad pop culture. Dan Brown = hack.
posted
Ben, But here's the thing, from the thread that kat deleted. Symbology is a legitimate word, but it doesn't mean the same thing as symbolism. So, using that way makes you look stupid.
kat started out with saying something like: "A co-worker of mine was telling me about her trip to the Jefferson building and talked about the symbology of the lobby.
<hear no evil, etc. smilely>
Thank you Dan Brown.<wry>"
I don't get what is wrong about the first part. kat didn't seem to know the definition of symbology - I believe her exact quote, when presented with the OED definition that fit that usage was "The OED is wrong.", which I figure is why she deleted it, but other people came in and agreed with her.
FC said something like "Dan Brown injected the word into the public consciousness. Without his writing, regular people wouldn't use it."
I don't see why this would be a problem, or true for that matter. I knew what symbology meant. It's entirely possible that the tour guide used the word as part of his talk.
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quote:kat didn't seem to know the definition of symbology - I believe her exact quote, when presented with the OED definition that fit that usage was "The OED is wrong."
I do this exact same thing.
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quote: The issue is that the woman would never have used that word had she not been influenced by garbage writing
I don't think that's true.
Were I in that situation, that's likely the word I would use, whether when acting as a tour guide or telling someone about my experience later.
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posted
Squicky, you have to get over this obsession. You pay more attention to me than I do. Which is quite an accomplishment.
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posted
That's right Tom. I'm closing in on the horrifying mysteries contained in the painting of dogs playing poker that will expose the Westminster Dog Show people for the world-dominating colossus that they are. Be careful though, the last five people I told of my work to went on to develop an allergy to cats.
posted
Squicky, seriously, you missed the point of the story, and you have also sucked all my fun out of telling it. I wish you would stop following me around desperate for a chance to comment on my words. It's icky.
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posted
The clues are all around us. Lassie and Rin-Tin-Tin. The inexplicable popularity of the "Air Bud" movies. They really shot Old Yeller to shut him up. And what the heck is Goofy anyway?
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:So, seriously, what is intrinsically wrong with people using the word 'symbology'?
quote:The word “symbology” appears in several English dictionaries[1] and can mean:
1. the art of expression by symbols 2. the study of the interpretation of symbols 3. a system of symbols
However, in popular culture there is some ambiguity as to the meaning of this word.
The Da Vinci Code
Symbology is the fictional academic discipline pursued by the hero of Dan Brown's novels, The Da Vinci Code and Angels and Demons. The hero, Robert Langdon, is supposed to be a professor of "symbology" at Harvard.
Karen L. King, Winn Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Harvard, called "symbology" a nonexistent field, and noted that the closest field, semiology, is unrepresented at Harvard[2]
Boondock Saints
In the film Boondock Saints, the urbane FBI agent Paul Smecker, played by Willem Dafoe, chastises a police detective he is working with for using the word symbology. The implication is that he is irked by the officer's statement because he sees symbology as a malapropism for the word symbolism. The dialogue is as follows:
Police detective: "So, What's the symbology there?"
Smecker: "Symbology?...Now that Duffy has relinquished his king bonehead crown, I see we have an heir to the throne. I'm sure the word you were looking for was symbolism. What is the symbolism there?"
Apparently, the film is pointing out a popular usage problem with the word symbology, which has not yet been recognized by dictionary editors. [Emphasis added.]
posted
Of course it would have. Of course, most other people wouldn't have deleted the thread, so I guess it probably wouldn't have actually.
There was still an active conversation going on. As FC said
quote:Dang. I answered that, and the thread was deleted.
I never got to see that response and I was interested in it. So I posted this thread.
Also, unless things have changed around here, deleting threads that other people have contributed to isn't generally accepted without negative comment. As far as I recall, that's considered pretty bad manners. So, it served that purpose as well.
Do you have a problem with either of these two things, Icky?
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posted
I agree it isn't good manners. I have deleted a thread once that I remember, and it was because I got heated and posted some information that was confidential, and then it got quoted so I couldn't just edit my post, there were other posts involved.
Kat has deleted a thread once when I was in the middle of replying, and then you get that error message - very annoying. I do think that unless it's completely unavoidable for a reason like the one I had (and I did apologize to the other posters in a separate thread) a thread that is active shouldn't be deleted. It seems to me like starting a conversation with a group of people then not only walking out of the room without finishing, but forcing everyone else to leave too. But then again, that is just how I look at it, and if kat looks at threads as something she created and considers them disposable, then perhaps she doesn't think it rude.
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posted
Jon Boy, I agree that people using the word symbology incorrectly is somewhat annoying. In this case, it looked like people were objecting to it being used at all.
However, it looks like the problem is that, in their mind, it is inextricably linked with Dan Brown and they don't like Dan Brown.
It seems kinda silly to me, but different strokes.
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posted
It doesn't seem silly to me to dislike a word that has been popularized by a piece of hack writing, especially when the usage is questionable—and even more so when the hack writer didn't even really use it correctly. As it stated in the link I posted, "symbology" really should be "semiology," and even then, Robert Langdon was apparently more of an art historian than a semiologist. So that just makes it use (and misuse) even more annoying.
But, like you said, different strokes.
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posted
Jon Boy, I'm not disagreeing about Dan Brown not using it correctly.
But when you're talking about the symbols contained in something like art in a lobby, I think symbology is one of the best words to use. Semiotics doesn't fit as well because it carries the idea of academic study.
Why do you think the use here would be questionable? What word do you think would be a better fit?
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Jon Boy, I'm not disagreeing about Dan Brown not using it correctly.
But when you're talking about the symbols contained in something like art in a lobby, I think symbology is one of the best words to use. Semiotics doesn't fit as well because it carries the idea of academic study.
Why do you think the use here would be questionable?
Because "symbology" seems to connote "field of study," even if the denotative definition significantly overlaps that of "symbolism."
Also, in this example it seems likely that the speaker was using it just because they'd read it in The Da Vinci Code and thought it sounded good. Of course, that's an attribution of motive that I can't really back up. However, that link points out that there seems to be a usage problem when "symbology" is used where "symbolism" would normally be preferred.
quote: What word do you think would be a better fit?
posted
Jon Boy, It doesn't really overlap with symbolism. It's the art, use, or study of symbolism.
Maybe I have a significantly different background than other people, but I'm used to symbology being used in this way. If someone were talking about the symbolism of the lobby, to me, that would imply that the lobby itself was symbolic of something, rather than it contained many pieces of art, architechture, or some other aspects that were themselves symbolic. Am I alone in seeing it that way?
Also, considering that the 'symbology' quote came from a movie that came out in 1999 and The DaVinci Code came out in 2003, I don't think this putative problem originated with the book.
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quote:Also, considering that the 'symbology' quote came from a movie that came out in 1999 and The DaVinci Code came out in 2003, I don't think this putative problem originated with the book.
Yes, but the movie was mocking the use of the word, and the book embraced it. Plus, the book used the word far more often and had a wider audience.
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Mr. Squicky, I will never notice you. Stop begging for my attention. It's fifth grade, and it's pathetic.
I deleted the original thread because sometimes the only way to remove a stalker is to get out of their way. It's awful and I resent it, but I'd rather delete the thread than endure more of Squicky picking at me in a desperate bid for validation.
Is that what you need? My approval? Fine.
"Yes, you are smrt, smrt person. And you smell nice."
Can you leave me alone now?
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posted
Blech - never mind. I take back the statement in quotes. I feel like I need a shower now. *shiver*
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posted
FC, If we lived in an alternate universe where Dan Brown didn't write The DaVinci Code and instead was a plumber, would you have a problem with someone using the word 'symbology'?
My understanding here is that the whole thing with 'symbology' is that people don't like Dan Brown, but I'm just checking to see if taking him out of the picture changes things.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:FC, If we lived in an alternate universe where Dan Brown didn't write The DaVinci Code and instead was a plumber, would you have a problem with someone using the word 'symbology'?
If we lived in that world, only a minute portion of its population would ever use the word. Similarly, if we lived in a world without Tolkien, someone could call something "my precious" and still mean "my thing of value" - without that person being labeled as a Tolkien fan. It's just that such phrasology would be used far less often.
Also, if we lived in that world and if it was used meaning "the study or use of symbols" - rather than "the meaning behind these symbols" - I likely wouldn't have a problem with it.
As it is, "symbology" has become a meme spread far and wide that lends some sort of high academic value to finding hidden secretive meaning behind icons used in paintings. Before Dan Brown, the "symbology" meme was rarely seen, and it either had the dictionary definition of any other "-ology" or some reference to its incorrectly being used for "symbolism" in Boondock Saints.
Its greater widespread use is linked directly to a hack, and so every time I hear it, I am reminded of said hack. Just as every time I hear the word "futile" (pronounced with a hard "i") I think of Star Trek.
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posted
This is a pretty is a pretty intense argument, but I'll input my opinion anyways. I've never read The DaVinci Code, so I'm not familiar with Dan Brown or his hackiness. My problem with symbology is that it is often used incorrectly, as the reference to the Boon Dock Saints indicates.
Regardless of who made up what profession for the character in their novel, incorrect usage of words is annoying, and I have often thought that eliminating the word 'symbology' all together would prevent far more people from using it incorrectly than people from using it correctly.
Doubtless this would cause all sorts of problems in whatever field of study MrSquicky works in, but that is a consequence that I, personally, would not regret, so long as it facilitates the intelligent speaking of morons everywhere.
Also, I find it amusing that my spellcheck is insisting the 'symbology' is not, in fact, a word.
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quote:As it is, "symbology" has become a meme spread far and wide
Not THAT wide. I've never heard the word before. My first reaction to the previous thread was thinking that the person just got the word wrong, and so I was wondering what the big deal was. I sometimes say weird combos of two words when I'm speaking, so mistaking "symbology" for "symbolism" seems like a normal thing to me (i.e., I could imagine myself saying it in a similar circumstance, even without knowing it's a real word and being entirely unfamiliar with Dan Brown's works, other than he wrote this book called The DaVinci Code).
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Jon Boy, It doesn't really overlap with symbolism. It's the art, use, or study of symbolism.
Aren't you the one who appealed to the OED? 'Cause here's what it says: "The science or study of symbols; loosely, the use of symbols, or symbols collectively; symbolism." The definition of symbolism includes this: "the systematic use of symbols; hence, symbols collectively or generally." Sounds like a lot of overlap to me.
quote:Maybe I have a significantly different background than other people, but I'm used to symbology being used in this way. If someone were talking about the symbolism of the lobby, to me, that would imply that the lobby itself was symbolic of something, rather than it contained many pieces of art, architechture, or some other aspects that were themselves symbolic. Am I alone in seeing it that way?
Maybe not alone, but I certainly don't see it that way. I think the obvious meaning of "symbolism of the lobby" is "use of symbols in the lobby," not "the lobby as a symbol."
quote:Also, considering that the 'symbology' quote came from a movie that came out in 1999 and The DaVinci Code came out in 2003, I don't think this putative problem originated with the book.
No, but I think it's safe to say that the book helped spread the problem to millions of people who had never heard the word symbology before. I'm pretty sure that my first encounter of it was in connection with the book.
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posted
Do you really think more people read The DaVinci Code then saw Boondock Saints? I'm not saying they haven't, it's just not the conclusion that I would jump to.
If it were me talking about the lobby, I would have said "symbolism in the lobby" if talking about symbols in the lobby, or "symbolism of the lobbby" if the lobby itself was the symbol.
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quote:Do you really think more people read The DaVinci Code then saw Boondock Saints? I'm not saying they haven't, it's just not the conclusion that I would jump to.
More people have read or seen The Davinci Code (or read articles about it that included the word symbology) than have even heard of Boondock Saints.
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The Boondock Saints was only ever in extreme limited release (only ever shown in 5 theaters), and from all websites I can find it grossed around $30,000 total in theaters before it went to video. Granted it's made more since then, but it is still a small run, small gross picture with mild popularity.
The Davinci Code made $740 million in worldwide theatrical release, and has more than 60 million copies of the book in print. There are countless derivative books about it, plus thousands of articles written in magazines, newspapers and online. It is a juggernaut of popularity, and when you pair it with Angels and Demons (also using the word), it grows even more popular.
So, I'm pretty unequivocal when I say that more people have read, seen or heard the word symbology from Dan Brown's works than have even heard of Boondock Saints.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Alrighty. You win. I guess the group of people I run with aren't mainstream enough to give me an unbiased outlook on what is and is not popular.
Or...
Nuh uh! I'm right and your wrong and there ain't no way your gonna convince me otherwise! Scallywag!
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Of course, The Boondock Saints is an infinitely better movie and story than Dan Brown could ever hope to write, and should have made more money and attained more popularity.
Unforunately, the public generally likes crap.
Just wanted to add that. You know, Dan Brown being a hack, and all.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
The Boondock Saints wasn't given an opportunity to make money basically because the director made an ass out of himself. Resulting in him being blacklisted from studios and distribution companies. It wasn't like the public snubbed it. Look at it's success on DVD and video. That's really the only way it's ever been available.
[ July 27, 2006, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
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![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
I do this exact same thing.
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