posted
... hello all. my name is Michael Elboim, 19 years old from Israel. as a writer myself I really like books like Enders Game that talk about a hero who can handle problems himself. I really loved the book. but somthing told me "don't read the others! stop here!" I didn't listen and kept reading all other 3 books. (and started shadow, on 3rd book now)
my problem is that Orson for some odd reason like to make his hero's old and die in pain... he killed so many characters that I really loved. but even worse than death is see you'r hero get unable to do anything. Ender got old and slow and at Mind he could'nt do anything in the book. than he dies and vanishes into his sister and brother new boddies.
my questions are- 1. WHY!? heck WHY?!?! why should Peter survive and not Ender?! why there should be 2 Vals and not ENDER?!? why the hero that I loved so much around the boo does'nt get a happy ending...? );
2. from Speakern I loved Jane more than any other character. she was Enders girs. she was cute, jaelous, and really loved Ender. she was perfect! than and for some odd reason god married with that Novinha and Jane was lost. than the worst cuold happen... my heart broke when she begane being with Miro. I think that was a really big mistake. I really hoped all the 3 last books that somehow Ender and Jane would be together at the end... but near the end when Miro begane to love Val I thought it was happening! what I hoped so for so long time! over and over characters I loved were killed and got old from the time travel... and at the end... Ender dies.. and leavs Peter to marry Wang (who cares?!) and.. and......!! why the heck Miro got married with Jane!? Orson Scott Card that was the most sad thing I EVER read in anything about anything!! you killed my hope at that moment. I kept reaing untill the end and hoped for some tiny light... but nothing.
W-H-Y-?-!-?
sorry for all those yelling... ~_^ it just that I had a dream tonight thah Jane takes all 4 of them back to Ender's city from Ender's Game and she recreats Ender. than she creats her own boddy and let Miro marry Val while she's hagging Ender. that was so ... so... happy...
each book had a worse ending than the previous one. so many fans hoped for their hero and what he get's is an old and grumpy woman who din't know anything about love and the worst ending ever could be. die old when suffering and watching you'r brother, sister and best friend for many years getting married and living happily...
If Ender's and Jane's souls were ment to be together, why should they be seperated so harsh?!
I know that every writer is falling in love with his characters if they write so many about them. I know also that every writer makes a great comaback about this. I waited for the great comeback for 3 books... and nothing... only more suffer...
Will you ever write the great comeback? Ender, that did so much for so many people even tough he only suffered from this, should he get such a bad ending? not even bad guys deserve such an ending.
but i'm still here checking everyday and keep hoping that somewhere in this giant cave... Ender WILL live and WILL get his happy ending that his fans are so waiting for. and might even be with Jane again... ^^;
ty for reading. sry for the long rude letter... hope that Orson read this and will think about it...
Ender couldn't live for ever and maybe 3000+ years was enough for him.
I was sad too ... Jane was just brilliant. There is a OSC book about when Jane and Ender meet which is really sweet.
Ender transformed into one of the Val's (It's still his philote). He always loved / respected Val more than himself. So perhaps it is fitting that in the end he get to be that part of himself.
Posts: 571 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
the way you sound, it's like ender was the equivalent of jesus. he sounds like a martyr. in some cases, i guess he was. but you have to remember that he CHOSE that life. all of the things that happened to him, at least in the latter books, were because of his own decisions.
i don't think of him as having suffered, at least not emotionally or mentally. i think he was delighted to have someone he thought of as a son (miro) be able to make jane happy. he chose novinha because he loved her. you can't help who you love. i think it was wonderful that the ending was more "realistic" than everyone's hopes for what the outcome would be. life isn't perfect, things don't work out the way we want them to a lot of times, and jane with ender would have been too perfect.
i see it as being more of OSC's incredible way of realizing, as so many people don't, that the person you long for isn't always the person best suited for you. the person who compliments you the most is sometimes the last person you would ever expect. the couples at the end were good for each other because they, and forgive me for sounding cheesy and cliche, completed each other. each was what the other wasn't. one's strengths made up for another's weaknesses.
i would have been highly upset if OSC had abandoned his "truthsense" and bound couples based on nothing more than what was expected to be the happy ending. (i had to include the reference from homecoming because that series ended up with some seemingly oddly matched couples who in the end were clearly meant to be).
oh, and if you don't like the endings because they aren't what you think they should be, then i would suggest that you be careful about OSC books you read, because not one of them has ended the way i would have ended them. but . . . they ended the way they should have, which is why the rest of us aren't world famous authors of top selling novels. Posts: 52 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
maybe... I just thought Miro was inlove with Val and not with Jane. Ender even told Jane he loves her and she just ignored that. maybe that end cannot be perfect... but why is it has to be so unperfect?
*edit* my problem isn't that he dies. my problem is that Ender dies while all other characters are happy.
and Miro stole his gal! ^_~
Posts: 22 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote: it's like ender was the equivalent of jesus. he sounds like a martyr
Card does martyr off his characters, to some extent. Ender was quite literally so selfless that he dissolved.Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
You should know that especially in his series- OSC has said before that it has to end with the characters dying. If its mostly the story of one character- the story ends with the person being dead. And I think you were just not expecting it- and you didn't like it- OSC didn't seem to have fallen for his characters- he keeps a straight idea of what they would choose.
Posts: 980 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Tsukuyomi, you should know that Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind arn't to much of sequals. In Ender's Game, Ender, was the one and only hero. But in these books Ender isn't just the one hero to save the day. So don't think of SftD, X and CotM as sequals, but as books of their own series. Orson Scott Cards said himself that if he wrote Speaker for the dead first, he probly would of never of written Ender's Game.
Posts: 72 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I don't mind Ender being dead. in fact it's great for the hero to die at the end. it's just wrong to make his friends all alive and happy when he dies...
and Jane should'nt be with Miro!!
and if Ender is dead.. why is Peter and Val alive?
Posts: 22 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Because nu-Peter and nu-Val are Ender. Seriously. What makes Ender Ender -- his aiua, his soul -- is what animates nu-Peter. Nu-Val is now animated by a portion of Jane's soul.
Ender is no more "dead" by this logic than Jane is.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Nope. Jane married Miro. Ender married Wang-mu. (Jane kicked Ender's soul out of Val, remember.)
OSC is actually very careful about this sort of thing; all the marriages in his books are pseudo-Mormon. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I think it would be a bit strange for Ender to love Jane...she seemed more like his kid than a lover to me.
Posts: 973 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
It's not a sad ending. Ender is finally given the chance to live the happy, relatively secure life that he deserved.
Well, it's a sad ending for people like me, but all endings are sad to people like me, because I can't deal with things ending. But it's a pretty upbeat ending, really, as far as endings go.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Thanks for pointing out my error. All the soul swapping does get a bit confusing towards the end.
Having been haunted all his life by Peter, Ender finally chooses to regroup all three aspects of his soul in Peter. This allows Peter to be the person that Ender always wanted Peter to be and also shows that Ender finally conquered his demons.
A beautiful and true ending IMHO.
Posts: 571 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Ender's soul passes into Nu-Peter, where he gets to live a life that isn't haunted by the traumatic years in his childhood. Nu-Peter *IS* Ender, you have to get that part. It is Ender's aiua, Ender's will to life, that is running Nu-Peter's body. It just doesn't have the decades of misery and self-hate tainting it.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Tsukuomi, you can't just ask the same question back! I don't understand why you think Ender putting is aiua into nu-peter is equivalent to Ender giving up?
posted
What else was he supposed to do? If he didn't reconcile with all of the aspects of his character, he would have died. That would have been giving up. Instead, he recognized the traits his Peter-puppet carried as parts of himself, and chose to live. Sounds like a good ending to me.
Posts: 973 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Fine, call it giving up if you want. But if you're gonna call it that with a negative connotation, then you're gonna have to explain to me what is negative about it. First of all, I haven't read the books in a while, but I don't think the "decision" to relocate was even a conscious one. His aiua (read: Ender's spirit) basically acknowledged that there was no good reason to continue living as Ender, and every reason to live as NuPeter, and acted on it. Everyone in Ender's life was past the point where they needed him - even if they still loved him and wanted him around - and there was new work to be done as Peter.
The result of all this is that Ender is given a chance to live a life that is free of the things that ruined his existence as Ender. It is not a sad ending.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I'm not an english major or author or anything but you said you were
...for pete's sake man PROOF READ! so many typos and grammatical errors
I shouldn't complain I just don't like having to decipher the english language like a freaking puzzle
ANYWAY
you are a bit too fanatical hombre(see spanish pronunciation)
if you love Ender all that much why don't you marry him?
oh wait... he's a fictional charecter
fic·tion( P ) Pronunciation Key (fkshn) n.
1. 1. An imaginative creation or a pretense that does not represent actuality but has been invented. 2. The act of inventing such a creation or pretense. 2. A lie. 3. 1. A literary work whose content is produced by the imagination and is not necessarily based on fact. 2. The category of literature comprising works of this kind, including novels and short stories. 4. Law. Something untrue that is intentionally represented as true by the narrator.
so let's recap
Ender, Jane, Valentine, Peter, Miro, "NuPeter", "NuVal" and all the others I don't feel like listing
are creations of Orson Scott Card's mind
therefore
he can do whatever the chocolate covered hell he wants to do with them
and what you think doesn't matter
such a shame isn't it?
personally...
I think the way he ended those books was perfect
you can have a repeating charecter sure
but too much and people get bored
it's a sad fact of life
why do you think they're going to kill off Harry Potter(yeah I said it Potter fans...just wait and see)
oh and you stating that that's a crappy "ending" that's a bad way to describe it
there's still a book coming that ties up Shadow and Ender not to mention an earlier Ender novel
so that leaves another book for you to still have Ender (although Jane won't be around so you'll have to get your Philotic based computer chick fix from somewhere else)
and another to explain some more about the "NuPeter", "NuVal" story lines
ok that post was a bit rude but I'm not going to apologize
if anything I think you should apologize to me for wasting the time it took to read your post
ok I'm done have a nice day
Posts: 83 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
SP--Its not often that I agree with Tom, but you're a bit outta line here, man. Insulting the other guy is rarely an effective way of getting your point across.
Posts: 786 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I never said i'm an English author. i'm from Israel no England and English isn't my home lang excuse me! what does that suppose to do with the topic?
anyway I think joining the one we recognize as the 'enemy' from the beginning is like giving up. why? becuase Ender CAN fix what he did. using the same why he created NuPeter and NuVal he could'v create his own NuEnder and begin to try and fix his own life instead of running to hide behinde Peter.
that's just my opinion. hope you'r next messege wont focus on my English mistakes. maybe the fact that i'm from Israel? that's just MY opinion. I read articles about how Speaker, Xenocide and Mind are awful against Ender's Game. they call it "good author that gone bad". if you'r going to KO somone in a forum because of they'r typo mistakes, you dude, suk.
back to topic!
Ender, even Jane, could'v create a NuEnder and give HIM the chance. not give Ender's aiua the chance to be the one he scared from for all these years. a chance to be ENDER again and fix what he did and show his inner Peter that he's not giving up on life as Ender! that's who he is! not his brother!
I cannot imagen my little brother becoming me after I die only because he think his life are useless and mine is better. if everybody hates you and you have no reason to keep living but yet you CAN live... why kill you'r body and hide is a more succesful one?
Posts: 22 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
He ISN'T Peter- that's the whole point. Ender from an early age was made up of two psyche's which were represented by his sister and his brother. His brother's influence made him ruthless in some aspects, and did things which the rest of him hated, but they were both Ender.
nuPeter is definitely not Peter- nuPeter is just the part of Ender that he hates about himself. There is a difference- only it has the characterization and looks of his brother. Ender did not become Peter- rather nuPeter was made from Ender.
Not to mention- it was right that old Ender die- he was becoming pretty worthless (not as a person- but in terms of his duty) he felt he had a duty to his wife, and so he did it. He CHOSE to do that- rather than work on the great duties of the day- for which he wouldn't have been good at anyways. Novihna's family was as healed as it was going to get, they needed science now- not just understanding the nature of free thinking creatures. He couldn't have gone searching planet to planet- he had a wife to think about.
And who better than Peter to discover the source of power in the universe? It was that side of Ender- the thinking, the understanding, but the ruthless side of him that was able to find what it took to turn away the fleet.
Ender wasn't needed- but his soul was in Three parts. His aiua wasn't strong enough to hold three bodies. So one body had to give- and the one that needed the least amount of will- since that's what an aiua is- it's basically will. His took the least will to survive- and there was no will to survive- he knew his time was over, and he was fine with that. The will to survive and make choices needed to be in the two youthful ones where what they do can make a difference. Whereas with Ender- his time was up, he wasn't needed- he couldn't do anything.
Posts: 980 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I don't think it was possible to create any more Nu-Bodies. NuPeter and NuVal just came from Ender's subconscious mind. He didn't choose to make them. How could he consciously make bodies? If he could, don't you think by the end of Xenocide Ender would've made a body for Jane?
Posts: 973 | Registered: Apr 2005
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maybe it's not the real Peter, but it's the Peter form. he will be recognized as Peter. Ender will keep being hated by people!
Posts: 22 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
And Ender even gave Novinha a choice when he "died". If she hadn't let go he wouldn't have left the body of her husband.
Posts: 27 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
And Miro didn't "choose" to make a new body, per se. Miro saw himself as whole, and that perception was created for him. All of this happened way below the level of conscious thought.
And, at this point in history, Peter was revered as the great Hegemon who united Earth. Ender was the one who was hated, and there is nothing Ender himself can do about that, except maybe, as nuPeter, trying to spread a little truth to the masses. I really don't understand how you perceive Ender as "giving up". If he had truly "given up", all three bodies would have died.
Isn't it better that he live on as a reconciled whole than die in pieces?
Posts: 6 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I think SP summed it up pretty nicely. However, why do you, Tsukuyomi, keep refering to Peter as the bad guy? He actually turns out to be a pretty decent fellow. He was misunderstood, that's all. Do you honestly think that having Ender around any longer would have made it a better story or are you just doing this for attention? If it's the former, it's great that you have other ideas, just don't be annoying about getting them across. I can give some leeway for the language barrier, but still. If it's the latter, I believe you're going about it all wrong. However, it's your fifteen minutes and you may do with it what you choose.
Posts: 1215 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
As Shedemei said, Miro making a new body wasn't a conscious decision any more than Ender's was. He hoped that he could get a new body by going Outside, but the act of creation itself he was unaware of.
If Ender did know how to create bodies, he could just as easily return them, but he was unable to get rid of NuPeter and Val. The thing at the end was, though, they were just soulless bodies. There was no clear-cut "good body" or "bad body", just the unfortunate fact that they resembled people Ender already knew, and were assigned incomplete bits of Ender's character.
NuPeter was Ender... but not the complete man. When Ender's aiua moved into him, NuPeter then became the entire Ender... but without Ender's memories.
So what did you like about Ender: his experiences or his character? Your reaction to NuPeter can tell you.
Posts: 973 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Peter is Peter and Ender is Ender. he should'nt get into Peters life. i'm not seeing Peter as the bad guy. I just think that Ender should'nt try and be Peter cuz it's just not his body. it's like using someone's save to play a game and finish it for him. (or somthing like that)
Posts: 22 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Ok, seriously now, you have to try to understand what is being said to you. NuPeter's body BELONGS TO ENDER. It did ever since its creation. As soon as the body was summoned into existence by Ender's subconcsious, the lifeforce running it was Ender. Until Jane takes over Young Val's body and Ender leaves his old body, he is running ALL THREE OF THEM. Neither Young Val nor NuPeter have any existence that is separate from Ender. They are NOT someone else's body. They are THE SAME PERSON.
There, I even capitalized the punch parts for you, and repeated everything a good 10 or 12 times. I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I meant what people will think when they see him. he will say he is Peter. they will make him the new Hegemon. everybody in the world will keep hating Ender and will love the NuPeter.
why should Ender take Peter's fame?!
nobody cares that this body belongs to Ender. they wont know the true story. they will be sure this is Peter that came back from the dead to lead them.
maybe he's not hiding from himself. but he IS hiding from the world.
Posts: 22 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
It's sweet that you care so much that Ender gets the credit for the work he does and that the world recognise that Ender and the Speaker for the dead is the same (great) person. But honestly ... I don't think that that would bother Ender.
He doesn't care who gets the credit for the work he does or doesn't do. He just wants to know that the work is done.
(There I go talking about his as if he is a real person again!)
Posts: 571 | Registered: May 2001
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quote: I don't think that that would bother Ender.
Especially now that the part of him which isn't Peter is now dead, and the part of him which is Peter would want the credit to go to Peter. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Tsuku, as Mr.Card book signing in philly a fan asked him whats going to happen to Bean after shadow, Mr.Card said something like "Bean's done, he is going to die like a normal human being." So think of that like Ender, he lived his life, that's why he died in Children of the Mind, because his body didnt need to live any more. Ender lived his life, and died like a normal human being. Cause everyone dies, wether you want them to or not, its a normal stage in life.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
I think that if you have a chance to live you should'nt die. big power comes with great resposebility. (like spidey always say) if he'sgiven the chance to continue living and fix he's name as Ender. he should'nt run hiding from th world as Peter. he didn't die. he just moved into a more coftrable body. one that people like. I call that running away. anyhow that's just my opinion.
Posts: 22 | Registered: Aug 2005
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APOLOGY some of the first post of mine was a bit rude I was probably drunk
but in defense I never said that you said you were an english major you said you were a writer AKA author that's what I was restating
I will now attempt to look past the writing not to mention I misspelled "character" like three times myself...
back on track...
I think that Ender didn't have a chance to live if you remember a small detail of the story the dude was three thousand years old he had been on Lusitania for quite some time I belive the last few millenia started catching up
as afore mentioned peter and val were not concious decisions but all of a sudden Ender found himself controlling not one but three bodies but since the Ender body wasn't doing much of anything and the Peter and Val bodies were hard at work all of his mental effort was put towards their work hindering the Ender body futile he didn't realize it of course but all the attention he was putting into the other two was taking it's toll on Ender's body before he knew what had happened his original body went bye bye leaving him one body short I do seem to remember the last part of the book seeming pretty hectic as everyone was trying as hard as they could to get Ender into Peter and Jane into Val
why?
they needed Peter and Val's bodies and Ender and Jane's minds for quite possibly the most important work they'd ever do
Confronting the creators of the Descolada making the starways congress and the hundred worlds aware of "outside space" instantaneous travel and an all knowing being who existed in the philotic strands of their ansibles
I think what you're missing is the fact that you're looking at the end of children of the mind as the end of the story when that in fact is not the case no matter what the next book is about no matter what Mr. Card tells us in any installment
there's so much story he couldn't write there's so much that had to happen
so
Children of the Mind is not a crappy ending it isn't an ending at all it's the point where the author stops telling us and we start imagining
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